White Sox BBF franchise HOF, second chance round

[jalbright]

This will be one of two second chance round elections begun this week. What we'll do for the second chance election is a Yes/No vote requiring the greater of 6 or 75% of the votes to induct. The election will be limited to the listed nominees. The elections will only be open for a week--but there will be at least three or four days for discussion and new nominations. You can abstain from an entire ballot (player or contributor), but if you vote in that portion of the ballot, only the guys you expressly vote yes for get credit for a positive vote. The others in that section of the ballot will be considered to have gotten a "no" vote. There will be no limits on how many nominees you can vote for . I will also provide the nomination discussions for the nominees. The deadline for suggesting nominees is twelve hours before the election begins.

In this case, the election will not begin until Saturday, June 2 at 7 am EDT, and will end at 7 am EDT June 9. Nominations close 43 hours before the election begins, or May 31 at noon EDT. Ballots not cast within the stated election time frame will not count.

The White Sox have the following already inducted:
- Inducted Players (22): Luis Aparicio, Luke Appling, Harold Baines, Eddie Collins, George Davis, Red Faber, Carlton Fisk, Nellie Fox, Tommy John, Fielder Jones, Willie Kamm, Jim Landis, Chet Lemon, Sherm Lollar, Ted Lyons, Jack McDowell, Minnie Minoso, Billy Pierce, Ray Schalk, Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura, Ed Walsh, Doc White, Wilbur Wood

- Inducted Contributors (3) : Charles Comiskey, Al Lopez, Bill Veeck

The list of nominees at present is:

Players
Tommie Agee
Dick Allen
Chico Carrasquel
Eddie Cicotte
Ray Durham
Ozzie Guillen
Joe Horlen
Joe Jackson
Jim Kaat
Thornton Lee
Bill Melton
Gary Peters
Al Simmons
Early Wynn

Contributors
Jimmy Dykes
Bob Elson
Clark Griffith
Ozzie Guillen

[jalbright]

There was some discussion of Early Wynn's merits for being honored for his work with the White Sox:

It began with this exchange, with ol' aches and pains answering nyykan_t's question:

May you share your reason of choosing Wynn?

His stats as a White Sox was just 64-55, 102 ERA+ in 5 years.

I can't speak for Ace, but I also chose Wynn. He won 22 games for the Sox in 1959. It's safe to say without his contribution, the Sox wouldn't have won the pennant, and when you go 40 years between pennants like the White Sox do, you need to honor the people who got you there.

DoubleX made this observation:

Wynn was good that year, and on the whole, though relatively short, did not have an insignificant tenure with the Sox, winning a Cy Young and making the All Star in three of the five seasons. That being said, the strength of his case with the Sox seems to be on that one season, and while I don't doubt that as we go on, players that had notable seasons, and/or games, and/or moments, in helping their team win, but relatively little else with that team, may attract strong support for these Halls, but it seems kind of early to acknowledge someone like Wynn on a 110 year old franchise like the Sox. The Sox also had Nellie Fox (the 1959 MVP), Luis Aparicio, Billy Pierce in 1959, and all three are likely to be elected this time around - so it's not as if the 1959 team won't be well represented after one round. Sherm Lollar is also a good bet to eventually make it here. Plus, Wynn's career 102 ERA+ with the Sox doesn't really stand out, and even in 1959, though he was the big winner, his 120 ERA+ was 20 points behind teammate Bob Shaw.

Wynn did get some subjective awards, the Cy Young and 3 years of All-Star spots, while a White Sox. However, he never was in the top 10 in WAR among pitchers in a season. I'll pass.

[jalbright]

Double X made this push for Ozzie Guillen as a contributor for the White Sox:

Still feels a little early, but hard to ignore his overall tenure as a player and then manager

[jalbright]

Paul Wendt made this post supporting Clark Griffith as a contributor for the White Sox:

Clark Griffith [was] a star veteran pitcher for the Chicago "Cubs", he was the primary recruiter for the Chicago White Stockings and perhaps the leading recruiter for the entire American League. As White Stockings captain-manager in 1901 he completed a great season on the mound and at bat as well as in the dugout and the office.

[jalbright]

westsidegrounds made this pitch for Bill Melton with the White Sox:

1901 - the Sox' first year as a major league franchise

1971 - a Sox player leads the league in home runs for the very first time.

Bill Melton, ladies and gentlemen.

He never really recovered from a back injury the following season, but when he hung up his spikes he still held the record for career HR with the Sox.

Unfortunately, Melton never finished in the top three in WAR at 3B in the American League while a White Sock. He was in the top six in the majors once, but 5th in the AL. I'll pass

[westsidegrounds]

Ol' aches and pains made this pitch



Unfortunately, Melton never finished in the top three in WAR at 3B in the American League while a White Sock. He was in the top six in the majors once, but 5th in the AL. I'll pass

(1) I can't agree with that.


(2) I can't agree here either. Melton was an important figure in White Sox history. That's why he belongs in the White Sox HOF.

[jalbright]

You have the rights to a different conclusion and to a different vote. I'll even concede that 1971 was a very nice season. But I'm sticking with my opinion, which is based in part on the fact that according to bbref's WAR, he was never in the top 3 in AL 3B. I did the search using the site's Play Index tool, so it's not a matter of opinion. If the changes in the WAR system make for a different result now, I'll consider that, but I fully intend to act as though that fact still stands until it is clearly demonstrated otherwise.

[ol' aches and pains]

Wynn did get some subjective awards, the Cy Young and 3 years of All-Star spots, while a White Sox. However, he never was in the top 10 in WAR among pitchers in a season. I'll pass.

Unfortunately, Melton never finished in the top three in WAR at 3B in the American League while a White Sock. He was in the top six in the majors once, but 5th in the AL. I'll pass

Since a couple of my previous selections have been called into question, let me explain my rationale: We are choosing the White Sox Hall of Fame,
not who should be in Cooperstown. I don't care if Wynn's or Melton's WAR doesn't stack up against the league leaders in those particular years. These guys (especially Wynn) made a significant contribution to White Sox history. What the rest of the league did is irrelevant to me.

[jalbright]

I'm not questioning your nominations. I'm just stating my own intentions with respect to their candidacies. You're entitled to your own opinion, as am I. I'm not planning on being part of the 75% (minimum 6 votes) needed to elect, but am quite willing to have them inducted if they can get those votes.

One thing I look for is a guy who was a star during his time with the franchise, and thus how the player did relative to his peers is thus quite relevant to me. Others may disagree with me, as is their absolute right, but I'm not much interested in long time mediocrities with the franchises. Also, as an outsider, I don't know the intimate details of every franchise's history. Why, exactly, are either of these guys more important than the statistical record would indicate? That's an argument I'll at least listen to.

[westsidegrounds]

it could be argued that the opinions of people who know something about the history of a franchise are of more value than the opinions of people who don't.

[jalbright]

it could be argued that the opinions of people who know something about the history of a franchise are of more value than the opinions of people who don't.

Presented that way, that argument is not only calculated not to persuade me, but I think it borders on insulting. I wouldn't be surprised if others had a similar reaction.

[ol' aches and pains]

Why, exactly, are either of these guys more important than the statistical record would indicate? That's an argument I'll at least listen to.

I'm not that passionate about Melton, but as for Early Wynn, I explained why in my earlier post that you quoted. Take Wynn and his 22 wins off the 1959 White Sox, and they don't win the pennant. They would have gone from 1919 to 2005 without a World Series appearance, let alone a championship. Besides, Wynn's in the real HOF, the one that counts. As a matter of fact, I saw his plaque there yesterday, so it's not like I'm nominating some bum.

[jalbright]

I'm not that passionate about Melton, but as for Early Wynn, I explained why in my earlier post that you quoted. Take Wynn and his 22 wins off the 1959 White Sox, and they don't win the pennant. They would have gone from 1919 to 2005 without a World Series appearance, let alone a championship. Besides, Wynn's in the real HOF, the one that counts. As a matter of fact, I saw his plaque there yesterday, so it's not like I'm nominating some bum.

That would be far more impressive if the 22 wins in 1959 were largely Wynn's doing. At least as big a factor as Wynn's 120 ERA+ performance, though, was the fact the team scored 5.35 runs a game for him (per Retrosheet), more than a full run better than the average of 4.28. Wynn with his 94 OPS+ was a good hitting pitcher that year, but was hardly the main reason for that increase in runs. Other than 1959, Wynn as a White Sock was pretty good for an old pitcher at the end of his career, but that means he was simply an average pitcher overall. His White Sock years aren't much help to his HOF case except for providing counting numbers (like wins toward 300).

[ol' aches and pains]

That would be far more impressive if the 22 wins in 1959 were largely Wynn's doing. At least as big a factor as Wynn's 120 ERA+ performance, though, was the fact the team scored 5.35 runs a game for him (per Retrosheet), more than a full run better than the average of 4.28. Wynn with his 94 OPS+ was a good hitting pitcher that year, but was hardly the main reason for that increase in runs. Other than 1959, Wynn as a White Sock was pretty good for an old pitcher at the end of his career, but that means he was simply an average pitcher overall. His White Sock years aren't much help to his HOF case except for providing counting numbers (like wins toward 300).

Wynn's ERA in 1959 was 3.17, so he didn't really need 5.35 runs a game of offensive support. 4.28 would have suited him just fine.

Did I mention he also won the Cy Young that year?

[jalbright]

C'mon, in 1959, they voted the darned award based on wins--and nobody was paying attention to run support, either. Like I said, Wynn was good, but he got a lot of help to make in to 22 wins. His ERA isn't how many runs were scored against him. He had 16 unearned runs as well, which means he was giving up 3.73 runs a game that year. 4.28 versus 3.73 runs a game doesn't get you a 22-10 record. 5.35 runs versus 3.78 should get you about there. Wins are a team stat, not just a starting pitcher one. It seems clear I'm not changing your mind, and you're not changing mine.

[ol' aches and pains]

C'mon, in 1959, they voted the darned award based on wins--and nobody was paying attention to run support, either. Like I said, Wynn was good, but he got a lot of help to make in to 22 wins. His ERA isn't how many runs were scored against him. He had 16 unearned runs as well, which means he was giving up 3.73 runs a game that year. 4.28 versus 3.73 runs a game doesn't get you a 22-10 record. 5.35 runs versus 3.78 should get you about there. Wins are a team stat, not just a starting pitcher one. It seems clear I'm not changing your mind, and you're not changing mine.

I know how ERA is calculated, thanks. If his wins are a team stat, then the unearned runs are, too. They're not his fault, unless he made the errors himself. He had five complete-game shutouts in 1959, is that a team stat, or was he actually a pretty darned good pitcher, even at 39? And no, so far you're not changing my mind.

[jalbright]

It seems to me we're far apart on two issues upon which reasonable people can reasonably disagree:

1) the relative impact of Wynn's 1959 performance to his overall impact on the White Sox franchise; and

2) the degree of credit Wynn individually gets for what he did in 1959.

At this point, I'd say the best solution is to let the 75% (6 vote minimum) of the electorate rule decide, as we've both fairly well elucidated our positions. I look forward to seeing your vote for Wynn and whomever else you choose to support, and wish you good luck in your quest to get him in the "hall" provided by this project without my vote.

[ol' aches and pains]

Well, I've never been accused of being reasonable, but I'll rest my case. I've presented my argument for Early Wynn to the best of my ability, but I don't suppose he really cares, since
(A) it's for an imaginary honorarium, and
(B) He's dead anyway.

So I'm voting for Wynn, Melton, and Ozzie Guillen. Ozzie was a ROY wth the Sox, a three-time All-Star, a Gold Glove winner, and of course a World Series Champion manager, the most entertaining manager in Chicago since Leo Durocher.

[jalbright]

We're not done with nominations, so the election isn't open just yet. I'll PM you when it is, if you'd like.

[ol' aches and pains]

Oops. Sorry. I'm from Chicago, we vote early and often.

[jalbright]

I sympathize, but I'm not running this election like I'm part of Mayor Daley's machine.

[dgarza]

Eddie Cicotte
His pitching record says he belongs...

156-101 = .607 %
133 ERA+
47.2 pWAR

Wins Above Replacement
1917 AL 11.3 (1st)

WAR for Pitchers
1917 AL 11.2 (1st)

Earned Run Average
1917 AL 1.53 (1st)

Wins
1917 AL 28 (1st)
1919 AL 29 (1st)

Win-Loss %
1919 AL .806 (1st)

Walks & Hits per IP
1917 AL 0.912 (1st)

Bases On Balls per 9 IP
918 AL 1.353 (1st)
1919 AL 1.438 (1st)

Innings Pitched
1917 AL 346.7 (1st)
1919 AL 306.7 (1st)

Complete Games
1919 AL 30 (1st)

Strikeouts / Base On Balls
1918 AL 2.600 (1st)

Home Runs per 9 IP
1914 AL 0.000 (1st)

Adjusted ERA+
1917 AL 174 (1st)

1912-1920, Cicotte was one of the best pitchers in all of baseball:

                                                                       
Rk           Player  WAR     IP  GS  CG SHO   W   L W-L%   SO  ERA ERA+
1    Walter Johnson 87.3 2879.0 297 265  64 223 123 .645 1777 1.66  179
2    Pete Alexander 70.2 2749.1 310 244  70 207 101 .672 1485 2.00  150
3     Eddie Cicotte 46.5 2368.1 264 185  28 157 104 .602  981 2.32  129
4      Hippo Vaughn 40.5 2251.0 274 179  36 154 105 .595 1203 2.25  129
5    Stan Coveleski 33.5 1463.1 170 112  20 106  67 .613  556 2.39  134

pWAR suggests 5th best White Sox starter overall :

                                                                                          
Rk          Player  WAR     IP From   To   Age  GS  CG SHO  GF   W   L W-L%   SO  ERA ERA+
1        Red Faber 61.9 4086.2 1914 1933 25-44 483 273  29 134 254 213 .544 1471 3.15  119
2        Ted Lyons 60.7 4161.0 1923 1946 22-45 484 356  27  92 260 230 .531 1073 3.67  118
3         Ed Walsh 59.6 2946.1 1904 1916 23-35 312 249  57 102 195 125 .609 1732 1.81  146
4      Wilbur Wood 49.1 2524.1 1967 1978 25-36 286 113  24 174 163 148 .524 1332 3.18  116
5    Eddie Cicotte 47.2 2322.1 1912 1920 28-36 258 183  28  68 156 101 .607  961 2.25  133
6     Billy Pierce 46.5 2931.0 1949 1961 22-34 390 183  35  42 186 152 .550 1796 3.19  123
7     Mark Buehrle 45.7 2476.2 2000 2011 21-32 365  27   8   6 161 119 .575 1396 3.83  120
8        Doc White 31.6 2498.1 1903 1913 24-34 301 206  42  47 159 123 .564 1067 2.30  114
9     Thornton Lee 27.1 1888.0 1937 1947 30-40 232 142  13  22 104 104 .500  742 3.33  124
10       Jim Scott 26.1 1892.0 1909 1917 21-29 226 123  26  63 107 114 .484  945 2.30  121

[jalbright]

Eddie Cicotte
His pitching record says he belongs...

If he hadn't sold out the team in the World Series, I'd certainly vote for him. However, he did sell out the team, and as such forfeited the right to be honored by them. There's no way I'll vote for him. That said, if 75% (minimum 6 votes) disagree with me, he'll be inducted.

[jalbright]

I'm thinking that due to the holiday weekend, I'll extend the time for nominations to 7 pm EDT Thursday night. It's only seven hours, but it should help.

[dgarza]

Double X made this push for Ozzie Guillen as a contributor for the White Sox:

Still feels a little early, but hard to ignore his overall tenure as a player and then manager

Could we place him in the Player nominee list as well? He was already a fan favorite as a player.