Designated Hitter

[milladrive]

But put two and two together. You are in FAVOR of taking one more bench player off the bench without expanding the rosters. But if you eliminate that 10th starting position, you want more players? It doesn't make sense!

I think it makes perfect sense. With the pitcher in the batting lineup, the teams need more bench players to compensate for the need to pinch hit when the pitcher's turns come around in the batting order. With the DH in place, that need isn't there.

With eight position players and 12 or 13 pitchers on the roster, that leaves a mere five or four bench players to be pinch hitters or defensive replacements. If one of those bench players is in the lineup full time, the need for pinch hitting for the pitcher is null and void with the DH, thus making the remaining bench (four or three players) less stressed. Ergo, without the DH, I think the need for more bench is something to consider.

[bluesky5]

The DH is for fangirls. More HR's is the reason for the DH. It waters down the game. Less strategy, less complete players, less quality baseball. A one dimensional game to appeal to the dumb ESPN one minute highlight crowd.

[Rich the Giants fan]

The DH is for fangirls. More HR's is the reason for the DH. It waters down the game. Less strategy, less complete players, less quality baseball. A one dimensional game to appeal to the dumb ESPN one minute highlight crowd.

Amen brother.

[milladrive]

The DH is for fangirls. More HR's is the reason for the DH. It waters down the game. Less strategy, less complete players, less quality baseball. A one dimensional game to appeal to the dumb ESPN one minute highlight crowd.

Thanks for that wonderfully eloquent insight.

[baller]

What about the three point line and two point conversions in the NFL. Also the college football overtime too. What about the wild card in baseball an football? Horrible. All sarcasm of course...I say we raise the mound like it was in the 1960s and we can watch those great 1-0, 2-1 games.

[bluesky5]

What about the three point line and two point conversions in the NFL. Also the college football overtime too. What about the wild card in baseball an football? Horrible. All sarcasm of course...I say we raise the mound like it was in the 1960s and we can watch those great 1-0, 2-1 games.

They aren't baseball. I think pretty much any idea that enables teams to use more relief pitchers is an erroneous one. Whats wrong with everybody hitting? It's laughable to think that a ball team needs more than 25 players. One day there could be a backup DH.

[bluesky5]

Thanks for that wonderfully eloquent insight.

I cut to the chase on it.

[Rich the Giants fan]

What about the three point line and two point conversions in the NFL. Also the college football overtime too. What about the wild card in baseball an football? Horrible. All sarcasm of course...I say we raise the mound like it was in the 1960s and we can watch those great 1-0, 2-1 games.

Wait, are you suggesting the the current college football overtime format isn't the stupidest idea in sports history?

[milladrive]

I think pretty much any idea that enables teams to use more relief pitchers is an erroneous one.

But that's exactly what happens in 21st Century baseball. Pitching management has completely changed and, as such, it by definition uses more relief pitchers. It's why teams carry 12 or 13 pitchers now instead of the 10 they carried for nearly 100 years.

Whats wrong with everybody hitting?

Nothing. But managers now often lean toward pinch hitting for pitchers, especially in this day and age of the "specialty pitcher." How often do we now see a pitcher pitch to one or two batters, then get replaced regardless of the score? That didn't happen 20 years ago. Specialty pitching ("designated pitchers") is the reason teams carry more pitchers now.

It's laughable to think that a ball team needs more than 25 players.

Given what I just posted, I don't see the humor. Benches have been depleted by the increase in bullpens and one more starter in the rotation. If there's not gonna be a DH, I think the rosters should be expanded. Frankly, though, knowing that isn't gonna happen, I'd much rather see the NL finally catch up with the rest of the world.

[PVNICK]

But that's exactly what happens in 21st Century baseball. Pitching management has completely changed and, as such, it by definition uses more relief pitchers. It's why teams carry 12 or 13 pitchers now instead of the 10 they carried for nearly 100 years.



Nothing. But managers now often lean toward pinch hitting for pitchers, especially in this day and age of the "specialty pitcher." How often do we now see a pitcher pitch to one or two batters, then get replaced regardless of the score? That didn't happen 20 years ago. Specialty pitching ("designated pitchers") is the reason teams carry more pitchers now.



Given what I just posted, I don't see the humor. Benches have been depleted by the increase in bullpens and one more starter in the rotation. If there's not gonna be a DH, I think the rosters should be expanded. Frankly, though, knowing that isn't gonna happen, I'd much rather see the NL finally catch up with the rest of the world.

Don't you find that situational pitching makes the game tedious?

[bluesky5]

But that's exactly what happens in 21st Century baseball. Pitching management has completely changed and, as such, it by definition uses more relief pitchers. It's why teams carry 12 or 13 pitchers now instead of the 10 they carried for nearly 100 years.

True statement.

Nothing. But managers now often lean toward pinch hitting for pitchers, especially in this day and age of the "specialty pitcher." How often do we now see a pitcher pitch to one or two batters, then get replaced regardless of the score? That didn't happen 20 years ago. Specialty pitching ("designated pitchers") is the reason teams carry more pitchers now.

I know. So special they can't face more than one batter (sometimes) or go more than one inning, or start. Most relievers are no good. Have higher ERA's than the starters and they are brought in late in the game. Why? For who? For what?

[bluesky5]

Given what I just posted, I don't see the humor. Benches have been depleted by the increase in bullpens and one more starter in the rotation. If there's not gonna be a DH, I think the rosters should be expanded. Frankly, though, knowing that isn't gonna happen, I'd much rather see the NL finally catch up with the rest of the world.

Its laughable to think a team needs 12-14 pitchers. 9-10 should suffice, i.e. less players. It goes against reason that with all the advances in medical science, athletic training and modern comforts that pitchers throw less than previously. It's not like the NFL where guys may retire due to future health risks to head, neck, leg, etc. How often do you make the throwing motion in everyday life unless you play ball? Never. What is the arm being saved for? Post career throwing fastballs at milk bottles in the county fair?

Let them pitch. It'll never happen. The 8-9 year old little league where I live has pitching machines. Pitching machines! The only thing that will make the arm stronger is not using it apparently. Makes lots of sense.

[bluesky5]

Middle relief pitching/specialty pitching is the most overrated, ridiculously misguided idea in strategy maybe ever in baseball. Excluding of course steroids or mischevious stuff from pre-1900.

[pheasant]

I'm more old school. I don't like the DH at all. 9 starters play 9 different positions on the field and those same 9 starters also bat. That's simple and it makes sense. I.e, I don't like the idea that a pitcher gets pulled during his at-bat, but since it's for a DH, then he gets to continue to pitch the rest of the game. Why not have a designated hitter for a catcher? Better yet, why not have a designated runner for a designated hitter? I can see it now. Jim Thome DHs for some pitcher, then hits a single. Then, a designated runner takes Thome's place and steals 2nd base. But Thome gets to continue his role as a DH for the game since he was replaced by a designated runner, not a pinch runner.

[Zoltan]

Don't you find that situational pitching makes the game tedious?

I do. It makes the last three innings last as long as first five. I think its a big part of the reason why baseball is facing a "time of game" dilemma.

[milladrive]

Don't you find that situational pitching makes the game tedious?

Absolutely. But apparently, it's become the way of the game and isn't going away anytime soon.

So special they can't face more than one batter (sometimes) or go more than one inning, or start. Most relievers are no good. Have higher ERA's than the starters and they are brought in late in the game. Why? For who? For what?

Its laughable to think a team needs 12-14 pitchers. 9-10 should suffice, i.e. less players. It goes against reason that with all the advances in medical science, athletic training and modern comforts that pitchers throw less than previously. It's not like the NFL where guys may retire due to future health risks to head, neck, leg, etc. How often do you make the throwing motion in everyday life unless you play ball? Never. What is the arm being saved for? Post career throwing fastballs at milk bottles in the county fair?

Let them pitch. It'll never happen. The 8-9 year old little league where I live has pitching machines. Pitching machines! The only thing that will make the arm stronger is not using it apparently. Makes lots of sense.

Middle relief pitching/specialty pitching is the most overrated, ridiculously misguided idea in strategy maybe ever in baseball. Excluding of course steroids or mischevious stuff from pre-1900.

You're most certainly preaching to the choir with me, bluesky. I don't disagree with a single thing you've written here. Problem is, as I said above, it's most likely not gonna revert back to what was. I too remember the days when a pitcher would pitch complete games, pitch counts were not used as a measuring stick, and relief pitchers commonly threw the final three innings to earn their saves, especially in blowout games. Those days are gone.

And the fact remains that the National League is still the only professional league in the world that doesn't use the DH. Since we know the rosters aren't gonna be expanded to allow for greater bench depth due to the larger number of carried pitchers, I see no reason on earth why the NL wouldn't want to play on the same level as the rest of the baseball world. Hell, even the NL minor leagues use the DH. I can't help but wonder what holds that one league from adopting it.

Remember, too, that until the way the managing of pitching changed to what it is today, I was dead set against the DH. And I too don't like what's become of pitching since the turn of the century. But what is is, hence, my 180. I really think the time has come, especially given that next year Interleague play becomes an everyday thing. I genuinely feel the rules needn't change from day to day.

[wu-tang clan]

I grew up with and definitely prefer the AL and the DH; I like that both leagues have different rules, as it upholds a semblance of league sovereignty.

"I heard that this year we at Harvard won the base ball championship because we have a pitcher who has a fine curve ball. I am further instructed that the purpose of the curve ball is to deliberately deceive the batter. Harvard is not in the business of teaching deception." — Charles Eliot, President of Harvard College

[SamtheBravesFan]

And the fact remains that the National League is still the only professional league in the world that doesn't use the DH.

Not to nitpick, but the Central Leauge in Japan doesn't use the DH.

[dominik]

True statement.



I know. So special they can't face more than one batter (sometimes) or go more than one inning, or start. Most relievers are no good. Have higher ERA's than the starters and they are brought in late in the game. Why? For who? For what?

this is true however you cannot just look at ERA. overall the starters ERA is better but every time through the lineup his ERA rises. so while his overall ERA might be lower then the relievers ERA if you just compare 4th time through the lineup ERA with the single time relief pitchers do the relievers ERA might already be lower.
and if you gave the starter the 5th time too it would be even worse.

also the shorter starts allow the starters to be fresher late in the season.

the next thing is that only aces usually are effective in CGs. the 3-5 guys often have higher ERAs than the bullpen guys.

so while it is true that starters are better pitchers that doesn't mean letting them pitch 9 innings is the best way for success. this is about winning games. in hockey also your first line is the best but you still cannot let them play without a pause.

Don't get me wrong: I hate lefties specialists and matchup changes and love CGs but baseball people are not dumb. they have a reason for using the modern bullpen (one is the DH-that easy out in the 9 spot makes pitching much easier).

[redban]

I am an NL-person, and my favorite team is the Mets.

For a long time I opposed the DH, but now I'm starting to change.

Really, why are we watching a pitcher bat?

In the old-days, many of the players regularly played different positions, including pitchers. Babe Ruth is an example. Early in his career, he used to play the OF for 4 games and then pitch on the 5th game. That's how the game was back then. Pitchers knew how to hit.

Things are different now. Players don't switch between positions, and pitchers' don't practice hitting.

The NL design is outdated. Bring the DH.

[Bulldog19]

And the fact remains that the National League is still the only professional league in the world that doesn't use the DH. Since we know the rosters aren't gonna be expanded to allow for greater bench depth due to the larger number of carried pitchers, I see no reason on earth why the NL wouldn't want to play on the same level as the rest of the baseball world. Hell, even the NL minor leagues use the DH. I can't help but wonder what holds that one league from adopting it.

If we all jump off a bridge, are you going to join us "because everybody else does?"

[Thatguyoverthere]

The DH makes games more exciting because now the pitcher has to constantly be on his game, it adds a few more of those intense one-on-one battles. I don't understand how people enjoy watching pitchers kill a rally by flailing away helplessly (and when they do get a hit, it's often because the pitcher took stuff off his pitches). The "strategy" element is very overrated (Oooh! A double switch! How exciting! What a brain teaser!). And a pitcher SHOULD be treated differently than a position player. They're asked to do a lot more. There's a reason a starter can only play every 5th day, while the position player can play every game. The pitcher has to do so much more when he is in the game. On defense, he has to field his position just like every other player. He is asked to field, and to pitch. The position player is asked to field, and to step up to the plate. They are not equal. To make them equal would mean requiring the position players to pitch. And that would be absurd. The pitcher is a specialized position, what he does on defense is far different from what position players are doing on defense, so the expectations should be different too.

EDIT: However, I do want to say that I understand where the other side is coming from. The only way to make everybody happy would be to eliminate the DH position ALONG with the 9th spot in the lineup, so that you would now only have 8 spots in the lineup. That would mean no one-way position players, and it would also mean no pitchers batting. It would never happen, but I'd be for it.

[BC227]

And a pitcher SHOULD be treated differently than a position player. They're asked to do a lot more. There's a reason a starter can only play every 5th day, while the position player can play every game. The pitcher has to do so much more when he is in the game. On defense, he has to field his position just like every other player. He is asked to field, and to pitch. The position player is asked to field, and to step up to the plate. They are not equal. To make them equal would mean requiring the position players to pitch. And that would be absurd. The pitcher is a specialized position, what he does on defense is far different from what position players are doing on defense, so the expectations should be different too.

After reading through this thread - I think this is the point that is missed by most. I think that it is a big stretch to claim that "a pitcher should be treated no differently than everyone else." That is simply absurd. The position of pitcher is so entirely different than every other position on the field (except maybe catcher... but that's another story). If the best fielding first baseman only played 30 games each year, he would probably lose the art of hitting a little bit too.

I've made this point in past DH threads, but the bulk/spirit/essence of each game is the battle between a hitter and the pitcher. Every pitch is a part of that calculated battle. When pitchers hit, it cheapens one of those "battles" for me. But the DH doesn't mean that pitchers "get to avoid half the game" because, again, the position of pitcher is much different than the other positions. A starting pitcher plays 1/5th the games of a regular position player, yet is involved in approximately 750-900 batter-pitcher duels, while everyday position players are involved in approximately 600-700 batter-pitcher duels. Pitchers absolutely don't get exempt from these "battles" due to the implementation of the DH - they're already an integral part of them! (More of them, actually, which is why they get paid just as much, if not more)

However, I do want to say that I understand where the other side is coming from. The only way to make everybody happy would be to eliminate the DH position ALONG with the 9th spot in the lineup, so that you would now only have 8 spots in the lineup. That would mean no one-way position players, and it would also mean no pitchers batting. It would never happen, but I'd be for it.

I've said the same thing to my NL friends for a long time. Like I stated above, the duel between a pitcher and a pitcher-forced-to-bat is just not the same as it is with every other player - and its certainly better when that is replaced with a duel between a pitcher and a DH. But I will concede the point that it is unfair that the DH gets out of one of the position player responsibilities (fielding). In my opinion, the cleanest way to solve this dilemma would be to change the rules so that the pitcher just didn't hit, and there was no DH at all. Position players worry about fielding and hitting, and pitchers worry about pitching and fielding. To each their own - 8 lineup spots. Granted this will never happen, and the waves of change all point to the NL eventually having to adapt by adding their own DH.

[Rich the Giants fan]

8 hitters in the lineup? No way. If you wear a glove, you pick up a bat. That's the way it should be. 9 guys on the field, 9 guys take their licks.

[brett]

I like to watch games more without the DH. I originally preferred the AL because you had some good DH's like Singleton, McRae and Bayor. By the way, not having a DH may put the NL at a disadvantage in interleague, but it also probably saves NL teams a little money.

I would either ban it in both leagues, or keep it the way it is. I just don't like the idea of never ever having pitchers hit again.