Yeah, THIS planet. If you have a beef with this, where's the BEEF?Originally Posted by Blackout
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Yeah, THIS planet. If you have a beef with this, where's the BEEF?
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I would think that with over 9,000 innings played there, he qualifies for consideration. Would you prefer I threw out those innings?
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And approx. 39.4 WAR (65% of Total WAR) qualifies.
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Thanks, I didn't expect him to be that high, but I was wondering in part because he played fewer than half his games in CF whether you had some kind of "rule" like some people do about what position to put someone at.
What makes Puckett better than Murphy, defense, offense or a little of both?
Last edited by brett; 06-08-2012 at 04:46 PM.
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Earth minus NYC
Speaker matches or tops Mantle in every sabermetric anyway. Mantle is usually given a subjective edge for his peak talent level. I have Mantle 7th, and Speaker 8th or 9th depending on whether I have Bonds rated 8th in the mood that I'm in.
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Just as an added note, to be clear: When I made my initial post, citing 47 player "candidates" for consideration:
1. That's how I presented them, as potential "candidates," for top CF consideration;
2. Career abbreviation due to war, injury, sickness, slumps will always "prune" the tree of candidates, such that a great defensive phenom with a brief career can never accumulate career RUNS>AVERAGE to qualify in the final analysis. For me, this does NOT negate the player's gifts while he had them to display; but it does [and should] remove him from the final qualifiers for more extended, productive career performers.
3. Taylor Douthit, for one, deserves recognition as a superb CF. The relative brevity of his career, like that of Mike Kreevich knocks him further down the list of "all-time" bests ... but it does NOT eradicate such guys from due recognition of hoe GOOD they really were.
Granderson, over 30 and ranked somewhere between #35-50, seems not to be destined as a top 20 performer. That doesn't imply that he wasn't a good performer at all.
Last edited by leewileyfan; 06-08-2012 at 04:55 PM.
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I've read your post #25, and am trying to assimilate your thinking. Previously you clearly listed Statz, Mostil, Douthit, Kreevich, Piersall, Busby- among others- as better/having more valuable careers than Wynn. I'm sorry, but I just can't see ANY justification for these- analytical or other. Some of these guys were good Major Leaguers, but none of them was close to elite. I saw Piersall a fair amount. He was a very good fielder who was at best an average hitter- if that. His psychological issues can't be discounted, either. He missed time due to them, and he disrupted clubhouses. Busby was another good fielder who provided even less offense than Piersall. Jigger Statz' career was short and mediocre- he played fewer than 700 games. He may have been a good fielder but he was a light hitter. Yet you "easily" place him and the others ahead of Wynn.
Something doesn't seem right here. I think you are weighting defense inappropriately highly. When I have time I'll play with your formulation a bit. That seems to me to be the only possible answer.
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Big Ron: I wrote Post #31 specifically to clarify the points you raised again in Post #32.
I believe in CONTEXT. The topic of great center-fielders can be looked at, as if through a prism, having different connotations from different perspectives. If I ave a primary interest in defense but also appreciate all-around value, I can make specific references to "greatness," as long as I clarify the context.
I tried to do that when I entered this thread. In a thread dedicated to Granderson in the larger context of center fielders and then tangentialyy taken into the specific realm of Jimmy Wynn, there is an entire LANDSCAPE of contexts within the one topic.
I list 47 players as "candidates" for consideration. IF the do NOT appear subsequently in my top 30, it seems I've dropped some of them for some reason. Say, for example, that I believe that Taylor Douthit, Dom DiMaggio and Dwayne Murphy [just for example] are the best three defensive CF who have ever played between 1901 and the present, then I have cited a specific opinion. If someone counters, "Are you saying Douthit was better than Mickey Mantle?" - I shrug and say, "Yes, defensively."
My subsequent OVERALL list, I believe, demonstrates this emphatically. Weigh in all aspects of play: defense, offense, career duration [including run creation opportunity via PA]; and we get a different picture.
A poster challenged my putting Tris Speaker a slot above Mickey Mantle. My response, an homage to the elderly lady in a classic fast foods commercial, asking, "Where's the beef?" simply asked that challenger to cite something real to support his disbelief.
Context is everything. Defense among CF is fairly critical. If I praise Jim Busby, I can do so with no sense of embarrassment at all.
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lee, I understand that. But, the topic is where centerfielders (specifically Granderson but by extension many others) rank historically- NOT where they rank defensively. Obviously defense is of significant importance/value in CF, but to rank Jim Busby (for example) higher OVERALL than Wynn just doesn't make sense. Busby's considerable defensive skills in a moderately short career (1352 games) combined with his very modest offensive output just aren't enough to outpace Wynn's far greater offensive performance (plus baserunning) plus at least adequate defensive performance.
I appreciate your interest in and respect for fine defensive performance, but I still believe that you are overweighting fielding. Offense is 50% of the game. Defense (pitching plus fielding) is 50%. Pitching usually gets credited with at least 60% of the defensive element- thus about 30% overall- leaving about 20% to fielding. Divide that up among the fielders and it's clear that, on average, a starting player will have much more of his value in batting than in fielding. Of course there are exceptions, but extreme outliers are uncommon.
The only way to rank Mantle ahead of Speaker is to give him a huge league quality boost.
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He clearly beats him in peak, and that's without league quality adjustments.
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40 guys have +30 career WAR through their age-31 season, minimum 780 G in CF, debut 1890+
Granderson's skills are already narrowing. He doesn't get steals or triples anymore and he's now a below average centerfielder. He only hits .250 and walks a bit more than league average. When his power slips a bit, he's done as a full-time regular. Whether that happens in two years from now or eight will determine his standing among the greats.Code:Rk Player WAR/pos OPS+ Rfield PA From To 1 Ty Cobb 100.8 185 9 7733 1905 1918 2 Mickey Mantle 90.3 177 0 7412 1951 1963 3 Willie Mays 84.3 159 124 6666 1951 1962 4 Tris Speaker 79.1 163 76 6954 1907 1919 5 Ken Griffey 74.9 146 73 7736 1989 2001 6 Andruw Jones 56.7 111 233 7514 1996 2008 7 Duke Snider 55.9 143 11 6451 1947 1958 8 Richie Ashburn 55.8 114 111 7563 1948 1958 9 Joe DiMaggio 51.7 157 49 4986 1936 1946 10 Carlos Beltran 50.0 118 70 6520 1998 2008 11 Cesar Cedeno 48.0 127 -11 6932 1970 1982 12 Vada Pinson 47.9 117 2 8005 1958 1970 13 Andre Dawson 46.1 122 88 6138 1976 1986 14 Chet Lemon 44.5 123 100 5889 1975 1986 15 Reggie Smith 42.1 132 64 5843 1966 1976 16 Willie Davis 41.8 105 87 6740 1960 1971 17 Kenny Lofton 40.4 114 99 4437 1991 1998 18 Curt Flood 40.2 100 102 6917 1956 1969 19 Larry Doby 40.0 141 28 4803 1947 1955 20 Jim Wynn 39.4 131 -47 6014 1963 1973 21 Dale Murphy 38.8 132 -46 6383 1976 1987 22 Lenny Dykstra 38.4 122 31 4826 1985 1994 23 Bernie Williams 37.7 131 -36 5541 1991 2000 24 Paul Blair 37.7 103 168 5779 1964 1975 25 Andy Van Slyke 37.4 125 31 5395 1983 1992 26 Wally Berger 36.7 141 21 4772 1930 1937 27 Willie Wilson 36.6 98 106 5906 1976 1987 28 Fred Lynn 36.2 136 1 4860 1974 1983 29 Edd Roush 35.6 139 8 5231 1913 1924 30 Devon White 34.5 97 141 4943 1985 1994 31 Kirby Puckett 34.2 122 15 5369 1984 1991 32 Johnny Damon 33.8 102 5 6908 1995 2005 33 Amos Otis 33.5 121 -18 5704 1967 1978 34 Garry Maddox 33.3 103 108 5501 1972 1981 35 Max Carey 33.1 110 65 6551 1910 1921 36 Clyde Milan 32.4 111 6 6842 1907 1918 37 Hack Wilson 31.9 149 -27 4370 1923 1931 38 Jim Edmonds 30.8 127 35 4202 1993 2001 39 Ray Lankford 30.6 127 9 4793 1990 1998 40 Curtis Granderson 30.3 118 33 4368 2004 2012
Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.
Free El Duque! -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.
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Then I don't know how clear I can make this::lee, I understand that. But, the topic is where centerfielders (specifically Granderson but by extension many others) rank historically- NOT where they rank defensively. Obviously defense is of significant importance/value in CF, but to rank Jim Busby (for example) higher OVERALL than Wynn just doesn't make sense. Busby's considerable defensive skills in a moderately short career (1352 games) combined with his very modest offensive output just aren't enough to outpace Wynn's far greater offensive performance (plus baserunning) plus at least adequate defensive performance.
1. Thread opener asks for comments about rating Curtis Granderson among historic CF.
2. Thread proceeds with variety of comments.
3. Post 14, I enter with a presentation of my interest in defense [and, either here or in post 16, with Jimmy Wynn have been injected into the discussion] I review 1901-1942, naming 47 players with some CF experience, who have defensively "earned" a preliminary consideration for comparison, most of them being better defensively than Wynn ... but reminding myself that the subject is really centered on 2 particulars: CF play historically and Curtis Granderson in the larger picture.
4. With Wynn further defended, I go on to review 1943-2011, coming up with an additional 110 names of players for consideration + 10 NOT really considered because they are active and early-mid career.
5. Post #18 attempts to make very clear that some of us [me in particular] tend to equate CF with defensive value ALTHOUGH we must admit that, in the broader consideration of CAREER VALUE, some guys who are great with the glove may be less so with the bat ... and ultimately get shoved way down the line in consideration of "greatness."
6. Post #25 extends earlier list of "Top 30" to 49 names, in which latter classification I list Granderson [about #40] AND the recurring presence of Mr. Wynn [around #44].
WHERE, in the final listings of 49 players, is there a reference of Jim Busby > Jimmy Wynn? NOWHERE. Nor will you find in those lists Fielder Jones, Mike Kreevich, Jigger Statz or others in my preliminary grab bag of possible 'candidates."
EDIT: In fact, of the 25 initial potential candidates I mentioned, 11 [Joe, DiMaggio, Tris Speaker, Willie Mays, Richie Ashburn, Andruw Jones, Andre Dawson, Dom DiMaggio, Edd Roush, Earl Combs, Amos Otis, and Sam West] made the "Top 30" list. Piersall doesn't appear at all.
As for those whom I've named [and who did not make any numbered list], ARE they better defensively than Jimmy Wynn? YES, to a man.
Granderson might be competitive with several of them, defensively.
Last edited by leewileyfan; 06-08-2012 at 09:51 PM.
So you rank players solely on their best 2 consecutive season peak?
Even if you do this, it is pretty close (check out Speaker in 1912-1913, 185 OPS+, 50 steals a season, and the best fielding center field play ever.) And Speaker beats him easily in career value.
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Mantle had three seasons far superior to anything Speaker did. Mantle's peak was historic, at his best ranking up there with Ruth and Williams. Giving Speaker the edge because of career value is understandable, and I wouldn't argue against it.
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However one chooses to define peak, Mantle has the edge over Speaker. Whether or not that edge is enough to offset Speaker's career advantage, and considering LQ, is open to debate. Here's best five consecutive in WAR:
Mantle
1954 6.7
1955 9.2
1956 11.0
1957 11.1
1958 8.4
Best outside of peak: 10.2-6.4-6.3
Speaker
1912 9.8
1913 8.1
1914 9.5
1915 6.8
1916 8.4
Best outside of peak: 8.7-8.2-7.4
Here's the same thing in Win Shares:
Mantle
1954 36
1955 41
1956 49
1957 51
1958 39
Best outside of peak: 48-36-34
Speaker
1912 51
1913 36
1914 45
1915 36
1916 41
Best outside of peak: 39-37-35
Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.
Free El Duque! -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.
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Mantle's best seasons are better though
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I am not sure if Mantle's league was better, as the AL integrated later, and was top heavy, and he didn't have to hit against his own pitching staff, and Speaker played at the very peak of the deadball game, and then had to deal with a live ball league changing the strategy around on him. Statistically there was an effect starting in the 20s, and going up until the early 50s in the NL and late 50s in the AL where the top sluggers got walked more and got a much higher relative share of power. There were still deadball elements in most hitters approaches. This went away with integration. And the AL got to expand earlier despite probably being weaker overall.
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He's a career .266 hitter with twice as many K's as walks.
He's not a great fielder. He's been about average defensively as a Yankee.
He can't hit the ball to left field, and can certainly be "pitched to", as they say inside baseball. He can't take outside pitches to left, tons of totally unproductive outs. Terrible plate discipline.
He has great natural talent but huge holes in his game that can be- and are- exploited.
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When he came up, Andre Dawson was considered to be a good center fielder. Not like Maddox, but "good".
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Ugh... here we have a case of "look, the guy makes the list". Note how we had to keep adding names until he did. So we are meeting a arbitrary standard, barely.
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Mantle's best 4 seasons take a dump over Speakers best 4
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6 straight years of 20 homers....7 straight years of 19 or more homers haha...
good job Curtis!
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