Even Doc didn't have this kind of stuff. Apples and oranges. Commanding a knuckler is something incredibly special. He may very well be arguably the best knuckleballer in history.
Moderate Moderator
Even Doc didn't have this kind of stuff. Apples and oranges. Commanding a knuckler is something incredibly special. He may very well be arguably the best knuckleballer in history.
Put it in the books.
Registered User
I think it'd be best to wait until the season's over to assess things. Gooden had a stretch from mid 1984 to early 1986 where he was 37-5 with a 1.39 ERA and better than a strikeout an inning. I'm thinking Dickey's really perfected the knuckleball, with the greater velocity giving it later break and better control. Still, a lot of its success traditionally relies on atmospheric conditions. We'll see how it goes. Even if his numbers regress to where they've been the last two years he's still great.Originally Posted by theAmazingMet
I wonder how Dickey stacks up to great knuckleballers I never saw, like Eddie Cicotte, Hoyt Wilhelm (2 ERA titles) and Wilbur Wood at his peak (74 BB in 376.2 innings in 1972). Right now Dickey's probably the best knuckleball pitcher of the last 30 years.
Gooden and Dickey is apples and oranges Milladrive. It's like comparing hitters being blown away by a typhoon to hitters acting like their drinks were spiked.
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Mets/Brooklyn Dodgers fan
Along with Wilhelm, a couple of guys named Niekro might have something to say there.
There IS a "we" in team
I think people are confusing "level of dominance" with pitching style. Nowhere did I say that Dickey and Gooden had similar styles. I was comparing pure statistics, and the latest says that only one other pitcher has pitched back to back one hitters in 72 years. So maybe I'm wrong, maybe Dickey's performance transcends Gooden's in 1985. I realize the seasons not over, but I'm talking about this particular stretch, and during it Dickey is by far the best starter in MLB, and if he keeps it up he will surely break the 20 win barrier for our first since 1990, and will challange for the Cy Young. Not bad for a "washed up" (3 years ago) 37 year old knuckleballer.
Last edited by theAmazingMet; 06-19-2012 at 06:20 AM.
unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"
There IS a "we" in team
Some would say Eddie Chicotte was the best, and I would have to agree with them.Along with Wilhelm, a couple of guys named Niekro might have something to say there.
unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"
Paulypal
I do agree Dickey's knuckler is the best I have seen. Niekro included. Why? Because its 80+ mph. I am not saying he will have Niekro's career.
Now we also have to temper expectations, and lets not compare him to Gooden just yet. He is on a great run, and right now is the best pitcher in the game thus far in 2012....Not that I would take him over Verlander/Kershaw, but as of today no one has been better..regardless of knuckleballer or 101 mph fastball.
The great thing about Dickey is that he gives me a reason to look forward to him pitching. For me that hasnt happened since Gooden was firing 96mph letter high fastballs, then dropping a 12-6 curve on someone. I never "looked forward" to Leiter, Hampton, Johan, you name him. Personally I love the offense, I love homers, so for me to want to watch a pitcher is going some. Dickey right now is that guy. Also watching the knuckler dance and dive is a lot of fun.
Last edited by Paulypal; 06-19-2012 at 08:50 AM.
Registered User
I agree with what you said. I am just enjoying the ride. Love the control of the 'hard' knuckler...love that he is tied with Verlander for the mlb lead in strikeouts...that blows my mind. And it is cool that he is easy to root for.
Registered User
Yeah, as a kid I knew when Seaver and Koosman were pitching that it could be special. But I was a kid. Gooden was appointment baseball. You didn't leave the room. Dickey right now is the first Mets hurler since Gooden - with the possible exception of Pedro's best, short Mets streak in 2005 - when you have to watch. None of the other pitchers of the last 25 years have that, including Santana, in my book.
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Registered User
Dickey is the first pitcher in modern baseball history(since 1900)with back to back one hitters of at least 10 strikeouts in each of those games.
"You don't give up any runs,we'll guarantee you
at least a tie." ~ Grote to Koosman
Moderate Moderator
Simply amazing! Seems the guy is making history with each start.
As an OT aside, I've always wondered why people consider 1900/01 as the beginning of modern baseball. I consider the beginning of modern baseball as 1920/21. In fact, I'm thinking of starting a thread about it, perhaps in the History forum.
Put it in the books.
There IS a "we" in team
Why? I consider the beginning of the modern era the fall of 1903.Simply amazing! Seems the guy is making history with each start.
As an OT aside, I've always wondered why people consider 1900/01 as the beginning of modern baseball. I consider the beginning of modern baseball as 1920/21. In fact, I'm thinking of starting a thread about it, perhaps in the History forum.
unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"
Moderate Moderator
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...actually-begin
Put it in the books.
Registered User
Wilbur Wood is a guy who has slipped through the cracks....what an incredible stretch he had back in the 1970's with the White Sox. 1971-1975. We will NEVER see a pitcher with this many decisions, and I doubt we ever see his complete games again.
1971 22-13 1.91 22 complete games 42 starts
1972 24-17 2.51 20 49
1973 24-20 3.46 21 48
1974 20-19 3.60 22 42
1975 16-20 4.11 14 43
106 wins 89 losses 99 complete games 224 starts. Quick math is over 21 wins a year, with 20 complete games, 45 starts. Whatever they paid him, he was worth it !
On May 28, 1973, while pitching for the White Sox against the Cleveland Indians, Wood pitched the remainder of a 21-inning carryover game that had been suspended two nights earlier, allowing only two hits in five innings to earn the victory. He then started the regularly scheduled game and pitched a four-hit complete game shutout, earning two wins in the same night. Later that season, on July 20, Wood started both ends of a doubleheader, making him the last pitcher to do so.[1] He lost both of those games.
Wood was seriously injured in a game against the Detroit Tigers in Tiger Stadium, May 9, 1976, when Ron LeFlore, the Tigers' center fielder, hit a vicious line drive back toward the mound. The ball struck Wood's left knee forcibly, shattering his kneecap. He had surgery the next day, but the outlook was bleak. Many predicted that he would never pitch again, but after considerable rehabilitation, he did some pitching for two more seasons with the White Sox. However, he showed few signs of his former mastery. He retired in 1978, moving back to his native New England.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilbur_Wood
Paulypal
I remember Wilbur Wood and he didnt slip through the cracks. He pitched when the theory was "knuckleballers can throw every day" so they dont come out. Hence the CG's and decisions. 17 games over .500 is nice but its over 5 years. Dickey is 10 games over .500 in less than half a season.
Like I said we have to see how it plays out but Dickey is in unchartered waters for his kind.
There IS a "we" in team
Dickey being the Star Wars fan that he is, is almost like Luke Skywalker. The last of the Jedi Masters. I hope he inspires other knucklers, it would be a shame if he is the last of a dying breed.
unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"
Registered User
Wood's work over 5 years is the measure of any knuckle ball pitcher.
I like Dickey, but it is one , and only one, fantastic season. (Denny McClain was 31-6 and then 24-9 and people had him as a first round hall of famer. We know how that worked out.) Wood also started nearly 1/3 of the White Sox games some years(always more than 25% over the 5 years).
Also, let's look at the Chisox team records of 1971-1975: 79-83; 87-67; 77-85; 80-80; 75-86. So Wood did pretty well considering the Chisox only finished over .500 once. Those '71-'75 seasons were the 5 years Oakland won the division.
Don't get me wrong, Dickey is having the best SEASON so far, but let's see if he can do this for 4-5 years. In fact, let's see him shut down the Yankees this weekend.That would be a great thing !
Paulypal
Believe me I am not putting Dickey in the HOF just yet, and I agree what Wood did was good, but right now what Dickey is doing is really amazing. I have not looked at Wood's game logs to see if he had this kind of run in 1971...maybe he did. I dont find it odd that he started over 25%of the games being that they had only 4 man rotations and he was knuckler.
I am not downplaying Wood but I just find it hard to get excited about a guy that lost 20 games twice, 19, and 17 games over that period. In 1971 his ERA was 3rd in baseball, but besides that nothing special. What Dickey is doing right now is special.
Registered User
He's also the first pitcher in history with 5 consecutive starts with zero earned runs and at least 8 K's.
Keep Spraying Maine
Metsistentialist Thinker
I always took 1903 as the start of the modern era...
1900-1919 is the era of Cy Young and Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner and Wilbur Wood, Shoeless Joe, the Black Sox Scandal, and all those types...
1920-1947 is the era of Ruth, Gehrig, leading into Dimaggio, Ted Williams, the Negro Leagues, and so on...
1947-1969 is the era of Color Barrier Broken, Willie, Mickey & the Duke monopolizing October, Roberto Clemente and Latin America coming in, expansion, and the Miracle Mets...
1970-1994 is the era of more and more expansion, more drugs, the Swingin' A's, the Big Red Machine, the Soap Opera Yankees, football taking over, free agency, and greed...
1994-2004 is the era of The Strike, The Steroid Era's Peak (though it obviously traces back further), Jeter's Yankees, McGwire, Bonds, 9/11 baseball, and dark days for MLB...
2004-present is the era of the Curse Reversed, Yankees/Red Sox, rivalries renewed, drug testing bringing back credibility, the return of pitching, and MLB making a comeback.
Some fluidity obviously between those points and overlap and all, but for me personally, that's just how I would break it down, if I were teaching an "Introduction to MLB History" class...oh, WHY do such classes not exist in a world where my college offers a "Harry Potter as Literature" class?
"Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Orange & Blue Pincushion
OK time to play sports picture optometrist...
"Better 1, or 2?"
Here's #1:
RA Dickey pitching by robardin, on Flickr
And here's #2:
RA Dickey pitching (2) by robardin, on Flickr
(I'm thinking #2 is better)
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Registered User
12-1 and yet another 10 or more SO performance.
FIRE FRED WILPON
Dickey has a 0.885 WHIP. How is this possible?
NO HANDBALL PLAYING IN THIS AREA
Moderate Moderator
I agree. I'm leaning toward #2 as well.
Put it in the books.
Moderate Moderator
My posts in this thread explain why I tend to take the time pre-1920 out of the "modern era" more than any other era.I always took 1903 as the start of the modern era...
1900-1919 is the era of Cy Young and Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner and Wilbur Wood, Shoeless Joe, the Black Sox Scandal, and all those types...
1920-1947 is the era of Ruth, Gehrig, leading into Dimaggio, Ted Williams, the Negro Leagues, and so on...
1947-1969 is the era of Color Barrier Broken, Willie, Mickey & the Duke monopolizing October, Roberto Clemente and Latin America coming in, expansion, and the Miracle Mets...
1970-1994 is the era of more and more expansion, more drugs, the Swingin' A's, the Big Red Machine, the Soap Opera Yankees, football taking over, free agency, and greed...
1994-2004 is the era of The Strike, The Steroid Era's Peak (though it obviously traces back further), Jeter's Yankees, McGwire, Bonds, 9/11 baseball, and dark days for MLB...
2004-present is the era of the Curse Reversed, Yankees/Red Sox, rivalries renewed, drug testing bringing back credibility, the return of pitching, and MLB making a comeback.
Some fluidity obviously between those points and overlap and all, but for me personally, that's just how I would break it down, if I were teaching an "Introduction to MLB History" class...oh, WHY do such classes not exist in a world where my college offers a "Harry Potter as Literature" class?
Put it in the books.
Moderate Moderator
I'm so looking forward to Monday evening when I'll get to meet R.A. and have him inscribe and autograph his book at a signing he's doing here on Long Island.
Put it in the books.
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