Paulypal
My moral compass is just fine. Although my using the word shoot would be an obvious over reaction to his RA's actions...it was only to magnify how ridiculous your criticism was of a guy that made a mistake and comparing him to a criminal of epic proportions that has such little regard for humanity.Originally Posted by WEB
Registered User
It was the most minor 'mistake' in the world - actually answering questions reporters asked him a public event. Shocking! The kids will have to undergo counseling because of what RA said that day.
Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.
Team Veteran
How many times do I have to write 360+ days a year go blame Fredo all you like for practically anything and I'll likely agree. My criticism of Dickey's actions is not ridiculous, the media jumped all over him and he felt he had to apologize.
My issue is Dickey even when apologizing he had to make sure to assign blame on someone else for a position only he decided to put himself into.
Dickey was wrong to open his mouth at the kids party on that day, he was wrong to blame someone else for a position he put himself into when apologizing. Beyond that he can blame Fredo 99.5 percent of the year......no problem there.
Last edited by WEB; 12-20-2012 at 07:12 AM.
Team Veteran
The kids and families who went there will always recall about how Dickey did much more than answer questions at their public event, that's what the day will be remembered for which is a shame. Maybe next year families will not want to attend or the Mets will have to change or cancel the event if this is what it turns into.
Registered User
With the moronic ownership the Mets have, I am surprised he wasn't jumping up and down dropping F bombs at the party. Sometimes blaming the guy in charge is appropriate...and given the "sterling" history of these crooks, these liars, these $%#$@ (I'd better stop or I will be jumping up and down at work dropping F bombs myself) they have earned the ire and disgust being heaped on them by many of us who have loved the Mets for a long time. So if Dickey expressed his anger or dismay, I have no problem with it. His request wasn't unreasonable and if the Mets had said to him or to his agent, 'Look, you are a great guy and have performed outstandingly but we have so many holes to fill, can't win the way we are now, and you are 38 so we are going to look to trade you for as many quality pieces we can find, lots of GOOD teams are interested....but if we don't get them we will resign you '...then I bet there is no issue. Dickey isn't a dope... Communication...which the Mets owners SUCK at....is key...and IMHO there wasn't any once again. Big Surprise.
A gametime decision
How many people have said something at an office Christmas party that they've later regretted? It's a cliche by this time. It's much ado about nothing. Imagine if Dickey actually said what he really thought of the team's management.
"My truck done shocked the fire out of me, and my arm don't hurt no more." - Roy Oswalt, channeling Dizzy Dean
There IS a "we" in team
Seriously, people are way overreacting to this. Yes Dickey chose the wrong forum, but he understood his mistake and apologized. Nothing in his history with us makes this a common occurance. He is human after all, and by all accounts a very good one at that. I'll give him a pass. As far as signing Wright and trading Dickey. I believe the Wilpons wanted Wright back to keep fannies in the seats next summer. Could you imagine the ill will if Wright had been traded? The Wilpons are very self conscious to a fault and I predicted they would resign him months ago in another thread. I woulda bet a paycheck on it. Dickey was all Alderson. The Wilpons had to be sold on the idea of trading Dickey, which basically means the Mets have conceded next season. I for one agree 100% with the trade. I dont like trading Dickey per se, but given the state of the team (we werent contending for at least 2 years anyway) and the high ceiling of talent we received back I'm all for it.
unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"
The Alderson Era
Um, no.The trade was only good if you buy into the necessity of the Wilpons tanking half a decade to replenish all their stolen Ponzi profits by sucking baseball operations dry.
The trade was good if you understand what relative value is.
The Rays traded away James Shields and Wade Davis for a flurry of prospects. They must be a sad franchise, too.Otherwise it was typical of the kind of garbage historically sad franchises give their fans.
Because Wright isn't thirty-goddamn-eight.If the Mets are so many years away from contending that a knuckleball pitcher with another 3-5 years of probable top of the rotation performance is useless, how do you justify resigning Golden Boy instead of dealing him for prospects?
Nope.If this were a bona fide rebuild wouldn't he have been dealt, too?
Registered User
Relative value? Not sure what you mean here. Focusing on WAR per $? Ultimately that's a loser's game. George Steinbrenner left this world with seven World Series rings. Billy Beane and Andrew Friedman have a combined total of zero. At the end of the day consistent spending usually correlates to consistent winning. Traditionally, good teams don't deal high actual value for possibilities. It's no coincidence.
What I dislike most about this trade is what it signals. It shows the Wilpons have punted the next couple seasons. It also indicates they'll pinch pennies harder than ever in the future. Moneyball is a necessary evil in markets like Tampa Bay. Not so in New York where the Wilpons make a fortune. This bodes ill for fans.
"The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!
Registered User
Everyone: These were my thoughts back on November 15th...
I look at the trade and now think that the Mets made out OK on the deal and that
RA Dickey,Josh Thole and Mike Nickeas may do well for the Blue Jays...
It made no sense to keep RA if he was not going to be happy as a Met...
This could be some way for the Mets to further rebuild...
At first I was thinking bad thoughts and hoping that this would not be another
Jim Fregosi trade...Long time Met fans remember how bad that one turned out to be...
In closing this trade may help both teams...
The Blue Jays are going to be an interesting team in 2013...
As for the Mets...I am not against building a good team over time...
LI MIKE
There IS a "we" in team
Dickey or not, we werent winning the next two years anyway.
unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"
The Alderson Era
1. Since when is trading for prospects "moneyball?"
2. WAR is pretty useless since it relies on FIP, and knuckleballers are an exception to that metric. Assuming we're going by fWAR.
3. Consistently smart spending correlates to consistent winning.
4. Good teams don't deal high actual value for possibilities. The thing is we AREN'T A WINNING TEAM.
5. The next couple of seasons were punted before the Dickey trade.
6. The whole Steinbrenner / Friedman comparison is fallacious.
Team Veteran
And sometimes like during the teams Christmas party it's completely inappropriate.
Bottom line the guys in charge did not force Dickey to sign a team option for five million a year, he's an adult and did that all by himself with his agent. You can bet if he was terrible he would be very happy to have that security.
The guys in charge did not physically make him go the party where the kids did not care about his salary. The guys in charge did not make him even when apologizing cover his mistake by blaming others for putting him in that position.
I'm sure if your kids went you might have a problem if a multimillionaire taking a tantrum is what their trip will be remembered for.
Dickey could picked up a phone and called a writer any day before the party and done this-no problem.
He could have waited until after the party-no problem.
He handled it badly, he handled his apology badly blaming others.
What happened internally does not excuse Dickey's conduct at all, if he could not control his emotions for the sake of the kids for only ONE crummy day, stay home.
Any other day he can complain all he likes-no problem.
Last edited by WEB; 12-21-2012 at 05:58 AM.
Put it in the books
So you're saying that for that one day, Dickey acted like a... a... well, you know.
X
Ray Manzarek, 1939-2013
Registered User
Amateur psychoanalysis aside...
A pretty cool gif of why Dickey is difficult to hit
http://www.fangraphs.com/not/index.p...ling-knuckler/
Paulypal
Thank you for that. That is an awesome piece of footage. I think the catcher was surpised he even caught it.
Mets/Brooklyn Dodgers fan
What astounds me about that pitch is that it's over the plate -- the heart of the plate! -- at all times despite the multiple changes in direction.
Registered User
Look at the batter's face as the ball crosses the plate - brilliant!
We're gonna miss Mr. Dickey.
Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.
FIRE FRED WILPON
You should see Dickey's changeup during his 20th win:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...ws-a-changeup/
NO HANDBALL PLAYING IN THIS AREA
Registered User
The Steinbrenner vs. Beane/Friedman comparison is at the crux of this issue.
The Mets generate a ton of money but the Wilpons stick it straight in their pockets, so the Mets are now forced to adopt the management strategy of perennial losers (or at least non-winners). At a certain point it doesn't matter how clever you are: you need to spend.
As I've said before, I see a timetable emerging where the Wilpons will not spend until they're about to launch that disgraceful publicly subsidized mall on land seized from their neighbors. Deals like this are intended to build a respectable core for then. At that point they'll spend what's needed to elevate the flawed, low budget product to "meaningful baseball in September" levels. They could afford to give fans a respectable team now, but it doesn't serve their interests. So every watchable, enjoyable piece that might cost them over minimum salary has been dumped; everyone but Golden Boy. He'll likely be past his prime by the time they're ready to contend, but he had to be retained to keep the hard core laundry crowd appeased.
This isn't an honest rebuild. It's a cynical attempt to sell fans on not spending. I'll say it again: if they were committed to the strategy you think is such a great idea, Reyes and Golden Boy would have been dealt for top prospects and they wouldn't have made signability under slot their number one priority for draftees.
"The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!
The Alderson Era
I found it hilarious how you tackled none of my points, and just created a superficial argument abundant with your usual bias against the Wilpons.
And what do you mean by "this isn't an honest rebuild"? So we're half-heartedly building towards the future? Does that even make sense? We'll probably be in the playoff hunt by 2015 (2016 at the latest) - when Wright is approaching middle age. He'll still be productive and an effective ball player at that age.
Registered User
Sorry you refuse to get the point. I'll repeat: dumping peak talent (and yes, regardless of age Dickey is peak talent) for prospects is the traditional strategy of teams that never win. Sometimes it works, but trading certainty for possibility is inherently a low percentage play. That's why the teams that most famously employ it have no rings.
Payroll is down another $30 million or so this year and not a single big league quality player has been added yet.
The reason a team in the most lucrative market in the world is using this method is the owners are denuding the team of as much revenue as they can and sticking it in their pockets. This, of course, is priority number one. If it wasn't they wouldn't fail to sign their number two draft pick because he wouldn't sign for below slot (among other things).
What's so hard to understand about this???
Last edited by Mongoose; 12-22-2012 at 02:04 PM.
"The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!
Registered User
It's interesting going back and seeing what worked and what didn't when it comes to moving proven commodities for prospects. Many here in Philly believe it was the trade of Jim Thome to the ChiSox that helped start their run as it opened up a spot for Ryan Howard who was making no money at the time.
When the trade was made, the return was an okay CF in Aaron Rowand along with some prospects. One of those prospects was Gio Gonzalez who, later on, was sent back to Chicago along with Gavin Floyd for SP Freddie Garcia - which will go down as one of the worst trades in recent Phillies memory.
Had the Phils held onto Gio and let him develop (as the A's did), his breakout year in 2010 may have led to many different decisions. The biggest one in being, since he was a lefty - and the Phils already had Cole Hamels, there'd be no need to go after Cliff Lee. Gio would have been very inexpensive and even with his new deal is only about $8M of AAV - compared to approximately $25M AAV for an aging Cliff Lee. Just that extra $17M would give them the flexibility to address other avenues, and it also would have meant he wouldn't be a National.
Lots of other woulda's, should's and coulda's of course. But it's sometimes fun to go back and see how things transpired moving forward.
Back in '07, the Braves traded Mark Teixeira to the Angels. They let him hit FA following the 2008, and since he signed with the Yankees, they received the 25th pick overall in the '09 draft - giving them #24 & #25. They used that twenty fifth pick on Mike Trout.
I still think this move helps both teams in the direction they're heading. The Jays are in win-now mode and the Mets' window should open up in a few years. We've seen the value in a top-flight catcher with Posey in SF, and even Mauer keeping the Twins from being more of an afterthought than they'd normally be. If Travis continues on his path, you all will be very happy having him in your everyday lineup when the Mets become players for the NL East once again in a few years.
"Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers
Moderate Moderator
I agree. Super footage!
Indeed.
P.S. Mongoose, I needn't remind you that this isn't the ownership thread.
Put it in the books.
The Alderson Era
Really? Then why doesn't every team in the MLB employ your method of running a ballclub? What team other than a choice few spend their way to a ring? You'd rather continue to lose than flip peak talent for young, cost-controlled players?Sorry you refuse to get the point. I'll repeat: dumping peak talent (and yes, regardless of age Dickey is peak talent) for prospects is the traditional strategy of teams that never win. Sometimes it works, but trading certainty for possibility is inherently a low percentage play. That's why the teams that most famously employ it have no rings.
Don't get me wrong - keeping top talent is critical to winning and contending, but we aren't winning. What don't you understand about that?
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