Official scoring (True/False)

[Memphis]

I friend sent me this and I'm going to cheat and ask you guys. Here's the problem:

Situation: The starting pitcher has pitched a gem and takes the mound in the bottom of the 9th inning leading 1-0. He's going for the complete game shutout. But he can only manage to get one out before getting pulled. Runners are on the corners. (Glenn would've yanked the guy much sooner)

Play: The first batter to face the new pitcher hits a grounder to the second baseman. They go for the double play. He flips it to the shortstop for one out but the shortstop's throw to 1st is in the dirt and the first baseman is unable to come up with it on the scoop. As a result, the batter is safe at 1st and the runner from 3rd scores.

Answer TRUE of FALSE.

1) The shortstop is charged with an error.
2) The first baseman is charged with an error.
3) The new pitcher is charged with a "blown save".
4) The batter is credited with a hit.
5) The batter is credited with an RBI.
6) The run is charged to the starting pitcher.
7) It's possible for the new pitcher to earn a "win".

In particular, I'm having difficulty with #5. I know a batter does not get credit for an RBI on a GIDP. But what if it should have been a GIDP? Also, I do not believe you can charge anybody with an error on this play.

Official Scoring rule 10.04(b)(2) says:

The official scorer shall not credit a run batted in when a fielder is charged with an error because the fielder muffs a throw at first base that would have completed a force double play.

The rule above specifically mentions the requirement for an "error"; but I don't believe this play has any errors - does it?

Thanks!

[ipitch]

There may or may not be an error. If the runner on 3rd was staying put, and then ran home and scored due to the bad throw, then there would be an error on the SS.

[Memphis]

I think we can safely assume that the runner from 3rd is going to break for the plate on a double play ball especially once he sees the second baseman throw to 2nd - and that would be before the shortstop has even made his throw.

[Memphis]

OK, let's make these safe assumptions about this play: The runner from 3rd broke toward the plate on contact (which, I think, is what would normally happen, especially if the middle infield was at double play depth, which they probably would be.) The SS's throw didn't go flying past the first baseman and allow everybody to advance - that's the way I read it. After all, the batter didn't even advance to 2nd. The ball just bounced off the first baseman's glove, causing the batter to be safe. I think that was the intent of the situation. In many respects, this is a very common play.

[Memphis]

Whether the SS should be charged with and error, there is the following rule for guidance.

10.12(d)(3) The official scorer shall not charge an error against any fielder who makes a wild throw in attempting to complete a double play or triple play, unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild.

However, had the shortstop's throw been accurate, that would have been the third out and the runner from 3rd would not have scored. So, by that strict definition, it would be an error. Then again, had there been ZERO outs prior to the play, the runner from 3rd would have scored whether the shortstop's throw was accurate or not.

[drstrangelove]

Answer TRUE of FALSE.

1) The shortstop is charged with an error. True. A good throw would have gotten the player out, so it's an error. If the throw was slow, he bobbled it and decided not to throw, or he simply held it, no error. The cliche "you can't assume the double play" refers to the examples I gave, not to a throw that is makeable and is in fact thrown in the dirt. Since you said "as a result" the official scorer is judging that a normal throw creates an out.
2) The first baseman is charged with an error. False. Unless it was in fact catchable and he fails to catch it, but normally thorws in the dirt are assigned to the thrower.
3) The new pitcher is charged with a "blown save". True.
4) The batter is credited with a hit. False
5) The batter is credited with an RBI. False.
6) The run is charged to the starting pitcher. True
7) It's possible for the new pitcher to earn a "win". True.

I'll be looking for more posts. Interesting query.

[Macker]

1) The shortstop is charged with an error -- FALSE, with runner going on contact, no error; if runner had held and scored only after the bad throw, then error
2) The first baseman is charged with an error. -- FALSE, throw was in the dirt, so no error on first baseman
3) The new pitcher is charged with a "blown save". -- probably true, but 'blown save' is not an official statistic, and, at least as of several years ago, there were two sets of criteria being used to figure blown saves
4) The batter is credited with a hit. -- FALSE, he hit into a force, no way can this be a hit
5) The batter is credited with an RBI. -- TRUE, It is not a GIDP, so he gets an RBI. An 'almost GIDP' doesn't negate the RBI
6) The run is charged to the starting pitcher. -- TRUE, and what some scorers don't realize is that the runner now on first becomes the responsibility of the starting pitcher. The reliever got an out. The runner now on first replaces the man who was on first for the first pitcher.
7) It's possible for the new pitcher to earn a "win". TRUE, since it is now impossible for the first pitcher to get a win.

[Memphis]

1) The shortstop is charged with an error -- FALSE, with runner going on contact, no error; if runner had held and scored only after the bad throw, then error
2) The first baseman is charged with an error. -- FALSE, throw was in the dirt, so no error on first baseman
3) The new pitcher is charged with a "blown save". -- probably true, but 'blown save' is not an official statistic, and, at least as of several years ago, there were two sets of criteria being used to figure blown saves
4) The batter is credited with a hit. -- FALSE, he hit into a force, no way can this be a hit
5) The batter is credited with an RBI. -- TRUE, It is not a GIDP, so he gets an RBI. An 'almost GIDP' doesn't negate the RBI
6) The run is charged to the starting pitcher. -- TRUE, and what some scorers don't realize is that the runner now on first becomes the responsibility of the starting pitcher. The reliever got an out. The runner now on first replaces the man who was on first for the first pitcher.
7) It's possible for the new pitcher to earn a "win". TRUE, since it is now impossible for the first pitcher to get a win.

Thanks! Your analysis seems dead on.

I like what you said about the new runner at 1st belonging to the starting pitcher. I think question #7 could have been trickier if it had said: 7) The starting pitcher cannot be the loser. FALSE!

[leewileyfan]

Up front, I admit that I may be wrong; but I disagree, in part, with Macker's analysis in Post #7. As to the questions:

1. Error on SS: True. This is a subjective call in which one scorer might charge the SS, wile another might charge the 1B.
2. Error on 1B: False. [My subjective call. I say the throw was errant].
3. Blown Save: I believe Macker is correct that this is technically N/A. However, I do not believe, by any measure/definition, a reliver can be charged with a "blown save," if he has done NOTHING that can immediately be faulted to his "flawed" performance. [There is a misplay at the core of this scenario].
4. Batter~hit. False. He would be charged with an AB, and properly an OUT, reaching base on a fielder's choice that resulted in a force out at 2B.
5. Batter~RBI. False. The batted ball he hit, as the scenario is presented, SHOULD HAVE resulted in a game-ending double play, in which case the "run" coming in from third would have been nullified by the successful completion of a continuation play initiated before the "scoring." As I recall, the runner crossing the plate before the 1B receives the throw to complete the DP in motion, is irrelevant.
6. Run to starting pitcher. True. BOTH runners are his responsibility. The continuation of the starting pitcher's responsibility for the runner on because of the force out at 2B might have tripped me up - I'm not so sure I would have gotten that.
7. New pitcher~possible Win. True. With the score tied and any runner being the starter's responsibility, there is no way the starter can get a win.

To support my interpretation of the play as presented, I have coped the rules, with asterisks to mark passages that I believe apply:

10.04 RUNS BATTED IN
A run batted in is a statistic credited to a batter whose action at bat causes one or
more runs to score, as set forth in this Rule 10.04.
(a) The official scorer shall credit the batter with a run batted in for every run that
scores
*(1) unaided by an error and as part of a play begun by the batter’s safe hit
(including the batter’s home run), sacrifice bunt, sacrifice fly, infield out or
fielder’s choice, unless Rule 10.04(b) applies;
(2) by reason of the batter becoming a runner with the bases full (because of a
base on balls, an award of first base for being touched by a pitched ball or for
interference or obstruction); or
(3) when, before two are out, an error is made on a play on which a runner from
third base ordinarily would score.
*(b) The official scorer shall not credit a run batted in
(1) when the batter grounds into a force double play or a reverse-force double
play; or
*(2) when a fielder is charged with an error because the fielder muffs a throw at
first base that would have completed a force double play.
(c) The official scorer’s judgment must determine whether a run batted in shall be
credited for a run that scores when a fielder holds the ball or throws to a wrong
base. Ordinarily, if the runner keeps going, the official scorer should credit a run
batted in; if the runner stops and takes off again when the runner notices the
misplay, the official scorer should credit the run as scored on a fielder’s choice.

An errant throw certainly qualifies as an error, especially if the scenario makes no suggestion that the batter would have avoided the DP by his sheer speed to 1B. No such condition is suggested.

[Memphis]

1. Error on SS: True. This is a subjective call in which one scorer might charge the SS, wile another might charge the 1B.
2. Error on 1B: False. [My subjective call. I say the throw was errant].

I don't think you can ever charge a fielder with an error for failing to come up with a ball that was thrown in the dirt, even if it was relatively easy to catch. I think that is a standard scoring protocol. I don't think there is any way the first baseman can be charged with an error.

I was scouring through the rules, as well.

I found this:

10.12(d)(3) The official scorer shall not charge an error against any fielder who makes a wild throw in attempting to complete a double play or triple play, unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild.

So, I don't think you can charge the shortstop with an error for his bad throw. The defense obtained an out and no runners advanced beyond where they would have normally advanced as a result of the bad throw. I think the theory is that the pivot man on a double play is often rushed and they cut him some slack on "bad" throws, provided he obtains the first out and he doesn't airmail the ball into the upper deck. Nah, I think Macker got it right all the way.

[leewileyfan]

:10.12(d)(3) The official scorer shall not charge an error against any fielder who makes a wild throw in attempting to complete a double play or triple play, unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild.

For me, the key phrase is "unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild."

If the throw had not been wild, the DP would have been completed and the crossing of home plate by the runner trying to advance from third base would have been nullified. [Home plate would not have been "reached" (earned, scored) without the misplay. I just find it hard to believe that language trying to be meticulous about scoring would be so indeterminate when game outcome might be at stake. The runner would NOT have scored if the DP had been completed; and the errant throw not only permitted him to score, but determined the game.

It also raises an interesting option: Charge the error to the 1B; and the language about charging errors becomes moot.

:So, I don't think you can charge the shortstop with an error for his bad throw. The defense obtained an out and no runners advanced beyond where they would have normally advanced as a result of the bad throw. I think the theory is that the pivot man on a double play is often rushed and they cut him some slack on "bad" throws, provided he obtains the first out and he doesn't airmail the ball into the upper deck. Nah, I think Macker got it right all the way.

As I said up front: I might be wrong, in which case it's a darn good thing that I didn't have to support my family as an umpire. This call I would have made pretty emphatically.

[Macker]

For me, the key phrase is "unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild."

If the throw had not been wild, the DP would have been completed and the crossing of home plate by the runner trying to advance from third base would have been nullified. [Home plate would not have been "reached" (earned, scored) without the misplay. I just find it hard to believe that language trying to be meticulous about scoring would be so indeterminate when game outcome might be at stake. The runner would NOT have scored if the DP had been completed; and the errant throw not only permitted him to score, but determined the game.

I think what you are missing is that the runner from third is moving on contact. His advance is not dependant on the throw to first. If he held at third and took off only when the ball wasn't fielded cleanly at first base, only then can you charge an error.

[Memphis]

This is really not an umpire thing. Umpires don't care whether plays are ruled as "errors" or not. They don't care if a run is "earned" or "unearned". These issues are matters for the game's Official Scorer.

[Memphis]

For me, the key phrase is "unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild."

If the throw had not been wild, the DP would have been completed and the crossing of home plate by the runner trying to advance from third base would have been nullified. [Home plate would not have been "reached" (earned, scored) without the misplay. I just find it hard to believe that language trying to be meticulous about scoring would be so indeterminate when game outcome might be at stake. The runner would NOT have scored if the DP had been completed; and the errant throw not only permitted him to score, but determined the game.

I don't think you can rule it an error based on the critical nature of the situation.

Let's change just one thing about the situation. Instead of the playing beginning with one out - let's say there were no outs. Now, whether the shortstop's throw was in the dirt (failing to complete the double play) or accurate (completing the double play), it would be irrelevant because the run would score from 3rd either way.

I don't think you can rule the the shortstop's throw is an error based how many outs there are.