Pirates BBF Franchise HOF second chance round

[dgarza]

Doug Drabek
Drabek was Pirates Ace during their last heyday, late 80s/esp. early 90s

92-62 = .597
3.02 ERA
118 ERA+
19.8 pWAR
20.7 Total WAR

1990 NL Cy Young

1990 NL TSN Pitcher of the Year

Post-season record

                                                        
Year    Series   Opp W L W-L%  ERA G GS CG   IP SO  WHIP
1990      NLCS   CIN 1 1 .500 1.65 2  2  1 16.1 13 0.918
1991      NLCS   ATL 1 1 .500 0.60 2  2  1 15.0 10 1.000
1992      NLCS   ATL 0 3 .000 3.71 3  3  0 17.0 10 1.412
3 Yrs (3 Series)     2 5 .286 2.05 7  7  2 48.1 33 1.117

Wins
1990 NL 22 (1st)

Win-Loss %
1990 NL .786 (1st)

Pirate Career WHIP

                                            
Rk             Player  WHIP     IP From   To
1          Vic Willis 1.082 1209.0 1906 1909
2         Nick Maddox 1.085  605.1 1907 1910
3    Deacon Phillippe 1.087 2286.0 1900 1911
4          Babe Adams 1.090 2991.1 1907 1926
5        Frank Miller 1.109  769.0 1916 1919
6           Ed Morris 1.125 2104.0 1885 1889
7          Sam Leever 1.141 2660.2 1898 1910
8         Doug Drabek 1.148 1362.2 1987 1992
9          Bob Harmon 1.152  769.2 1914 1918
10    John Candelaria 1.174 1873.0 1975 1993
11      Nelson Briles 1.174  550.1 1971 1973
12      Howie Camnitz 1.174 1754.1 1904 1913

[jalbright]

Nominations are closed, but the list isn't final until we resolve whether there's a legit second for Forbes--and I mean someone who will actually vote for a guy who predates baseball as we know it, though perhaps not some similar primordial bat and ball game. The deadline for the appearance of such a second is 7 pm EDT tomorrow, though if one does appear, it might be a little later until the determination of legitimacy occurs.

[jalbright]

This election is now open. Forbes didn't get a second, so he's not under consideration.

My ballot

Players
Gene Alley-Y
Jay Bell-Y
Bobby Bonilla-Y
Smoky Burgess-N
Doug Drabek-Y
Dick Groat-Y
Ed Morris-Y
Rick Rhoden-Y
Rip Sewell-Y
Gus Suhr-N
Jesse Tannehill-Y
Kent Tekulve-Y
Frank Thomas-N
Bob Veale-Y
Lloyd Waner-N

Contributors
Lanny Frattare-N
John Galbreath-N
Bill McKechnie-Y
Denny McKnight-N
William Nimick-N
Jim Woods -N

[BigRon]

My ballot

Players
Gene Alley-Y
Jay Bell-Y
Bobby Bonilla-Y
Smoky Burgess-Y
Doug Drabek-Y
Dick Groat-Y
Ed Morris-Y
Rick Rhoden-Y
Rip Sewell-Y
Gus Suhr-Y
Jesse Tannehill-Y
Kent Tekulve-Y
Frank Thomas-Y
Bob Veale-Y
Lloyd Waner-Y

Contributors
Lanny Frattare-Y
John Galbreath-Y
Bill McKechnie-Y
Denny McKnight-N
William Nimick-N
Jim Woods -Y

I voted yes for all the players. Frank Thomas was most questionbable for me, but he gave the Pirates good service for 7 or 8 years.

Jim, I'm very interested in why you didn't vote for LWaner. Certainly we now understand that he wasn't a real HOF-caliber player, but the fact is that he hit well for the Pirates for about 15 years, and played a very good CF. He played in an era when players like him were judged on their ability to collect base hits and to have good BAs. On that score, Waner did very well. Personally, I don't think there's any doubt that he belongs in this HOF, though I recognize that we all have different standards.

[jalbright]

Lloyd Waner comes in at below average as a player--and that's something I'm just not willing to support.

[NJRob65]

Players:

Gene Alley-Y
Jay Bell-Y
Bobby Bonilla-N
Smokey Burgess-N
Doug Drabek-N
Dick Groat-N
Ed Morris-Y
Rick Rhoden-N
Rip Sewell-Y
Gus Suhr-N
Jesse Tannehill-Y
Kent Tekulve-N
Frank Thomas-N
Bob Veale-Y
Lloyd Waner-Y

Contributors:
Lanny Frattare-N
John Galbreath-Y
Bill McKechnie-Y
Danny McKinight-N
William Nimick-N
Jim Woods-N

[BigRon]

Lloyd Waner comes in at below average as a player--and that's something I'm just not willing to support.

Well, with all due respect, Lloyd Waner was not a below average player. He had 245 career Win Shares, about 23 WAR. Of course, this was spread over a long career, but below average players don't last nearly as long as he did and do not create as much value as he did. LWaner had Win Shares (I still tend to favor them over WAR) of 27, 26, 25, 24, 23- all All Star territory. Waner's career OPS+ is 99, which is not impressive. He was a hit machine but rarely walked. So, as we know today, this reduced his value. But, in his time high BAs and lots of hits were what top of the lineup guys were expected to do- and he did that. And, Waner was a first rate defensive outfielder- he and brother Paul formed a fearsome defensive duo.

[jalbright]

By WAA a bbref, Lloyd Waner is below average, even if he wasn't, a 99 OPS+ is by definition below average offensively. By that approach, he's no further above average by his the amount his defense was above average. Even by that optimistic approach, he doesn't have enough positives to get my vote. Sorry.

[BigRon]

By WAA a bbref, Lloyd Waner is below average, even if he wasn't, a 99 OPS+ is by definition below average offensively. By that approach, he's no further above average by his the amount his defense was above average. Even by that optimistic approach, he doesn't have enough positives to get my vote. Sorry.

Boy, you're a tough grader, Jim.

[jjpm74]

Players:

Gene Alley-Y
Jay Bell-Y
Bobby Bonilla-N
Smoky Burgess-N
Doug Drabek-N
Dick Groat-Y
Ed Morris-Y
Rick Rhoden-N
Rip Sewell-Y
Gus Suhr-Y
Jesse Tannehill-Y
Kent Tekulve-N
Frank Thomas-N
Bob Veale-Y
Lloyd Waner-Y

Contributors:

Lanny Frattare-N
John Galbreath-N
Bill McKechnie-Y
Denny McKnight-N
William Nimick-N
Jim Woods-N

[jalbright]

Boy, you're a tough grader, Jim.

Maybe--but I voted for 11 of the 13 players nominated. For the Tigers, I didn't vote for Hooks Dauss, and he has better credentials than Lloyd Waner. I couldn't in good conscience vote for L. Waner when I hadn't voted for Dauss.

[dgarza]

Players
Gene Alley-Y
Jay Bell-Y
Bobby Bonilla-Y
Smoky Burgess-Y
Doug Drabek-Y
Dick Groat-Y
Ed Morris-Y
Rick Rhoden-Y
Rip Sewell-Y
Gus Suhr-Y
Jesse Tannehill-Y
Kent Tekulve-Y
Frank Thomas-Y
Bob Veale-Y
Lloyd Waner-Y

Contributors
Lanny Frattare-Y
John Galbreath-Y
Bill McKechnie-Y
Denny McKnight-Y
William Nimick-N
Jim Woods -N

[jalbright]

We're now at the critical moment--the regulars have voted, and we have five votes when six are needed to elect anyone.

[BigRon]

Well, it's pretty clear to me that none of our voters so far was a Pirates follower/listener in the 50s/60s. I didn't expect Jim Woods to get many votes so I'm not surprised. But, I'll state again, that Woods was a superior baseball anouncer- in my opinion one of the 5 or 6 or 7 of the best I've heard in nearly 60 years of listening.

[westsidegrounds]

Jesse Tannehill - Y
Lloyd Waner - Y

[jalbright]

A little less than a day and a half left in this election.

[Zito75]

Players
Gene Alley-N
Jay Bell-N
Bobby Bonilla-Y
Smoky Burgess-N
Doug Drabek-Y
Dick Groat-Y
Ed Morris-Y
Rick Rhoden-Y
Rip Sewell-Y
Gus Suhr-N
Jesse Tannehill-Y
Kent Tekulve-Y
Frank Thomas-Y
Bob Veale-N
Lloyd Waner-Y

Contributors
Lanny Frattare-N
John Galbreath-N
Bill McKechnie-N
Denny McKnight-N
William Nimick-N
Jim Woods -N

[jalbright]

We had seven votes in this election for players, six for contributors. No contributor got more than five (Bill McKechnie), so none were elected. On the player side, we had some inductees:

7 Jesse Tannehill
6 Ed Morris
6 Rip Sewell
6 Lloyd Waner
= ===========
5 Gene Alley
5 Jay Bell
5 Dick Groat
5 Bob Veale
4 Bobby Bonilla
4 Doug Drabek
4 Rick Rhoden
4 Kent Tekulve
3 Gus Suhr
3 Frank Thomas
2 Smoky Burgess

[BigRon]

Amazing that after all these elections, Dick Groat hasn't been elected. He was a stalwart for the Pirates for nearly a decade, and NL MVP in 1960.

[jjpm74]

Amazing that after all these elections, Dick Groat hasn't been elected. He was a stalwart for the Pirates for nearly a decade, and NL MVP in 1960.

That one is a real head scratcher. Especially when factoring in the fact that someone voted for Lloyd Waner but not Dick Groat. Groat was a MUCH more valuable player than L. Waner.

[dgarza]

I see we're still favoring pitchers in these 2nd chance rounds...