Cynic Philly Phan
every major sport,except hockey has passed baseball, because instead of embracing it's uniqueness, they try to emulate those other sports (more offense,more teams in playoffs) and thus have negated the regular season...why scramble to watch/catch up on the Yankees, when you know they will be in the playoffs?
"Statistics are like a woman in a bikini, it shows alot but not everything"
TROY -- Mayor Harry Tutunjian's pitch to get Major League Baseball to pay on a nearly 125-year-old debt by getting the San Francisco Giants to play an exhibition game at Bruno Stadium has raised some interest on the West Coast.
Freaking politicians, I have a meeting to discuss this, and he takes credit for my idea
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I guess I see why I like baseball betterOriginally Posted by willshad
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Never had cable. From my "outsider's" point of view, I may have a better view of the larger picture. If NBA highlighted more in the specialty/niche outlets, but not so much in the general outlets, I think that tells a story.
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Is this seriously a question just months after the labor discord in the NBA? Do people really care that much about basketball? Do Finals ratings translate into regular season ratings? Do more people really care about the NBA? I can't imagine so, but then as I pay so little attention to it, I suppose I'm not much of a judge. It's just that baseball is just so much better of a game than basketball, especially today's version of it (though baseball is doing it's best to drive me away from it of late).
The San Francisco Giants won the 2010 World Series and no one can ever take that away from me!
In 2012 they did it again. Nope, can't take that one away from me, either.
Fire Bam Bam! Hire The Thrill!!
A gametime decision
If I cared any less about the NBA, I'd be dead.
"My truck done shocked the fire out of me, and my arm don't hurt no more." - Roy Oswalt, channeling Dizzy Dean
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"Better" is an opinion, therefore, the answer that we are looking for to the "is basketball more popular than baseball" question cannot be derived from it. I am sure we can find some data regarding regular season ratings. If I had to make an unsubstantiated guess, it would be that MLB regular season does a little better than the NBA, but NBA playoffs does a little better. For many of the reasons cited earlier. Of course there is much more to "popular" than just ratings, so this is not an argument that we really have the data to answer at this point. Or at least, nobody has provided it.
One thing I can tell you by spending a lot of time around MLB and NBA crowds, is that there are a lot more MLB elitists out there. MLB elitists being those who feel like their sport is the only one that really matters to them, and therefore (by wishful thinking) by everybody else too. It is mostly due to the rich and long history of the MLB and how intertwined the sport is with American culture, but listening to them undermine the other sports in order to protect their sacred cow can sure get tiresome.
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Isn't it even more impressive that Thunder-Heat pulled big ratings despite a lockdown? That shows how strong the NBA is right now.
If MLB had a similar lock-out, do you think World Series ratings would increase?
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Regular-season ratings favors NBA, as well.
Last season, despite the lockout, NBA ratings increased for the 5th straight year. They currently average 1.7 per regular-season game on TnT.
http://fangsbites.com/2012/04/tnt-re...egular-season/
Now MLB? Technically, they still get bigger ratings than NBA in regular-season - but very slightly, at 1.8 per game on Fox (1.4 on ESPN).
Whereas the past 5 years NBA ratings have been increasing, the past 5 years MLB regular-season ratings have been going down.
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/D...ence-Down.aspx
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That is because as a star-driven league, there has been a big influx of new and young stars lately. Offense is up, it is now a guard/small forward league which speeds the game up and lessens fouls, and unlike baseball, the biggest stars are still heavily marketed.
MLB is in a transition phase with very few household names in the league. Look at the NL AS team. When guys like Furcal and Melky Cabrera get voted in, there is a lack of starpower. The biggest stars and best players (Votto, Kemp, Cabrera, C. Gonzales Kershaw, Strasberg, etc.) are not well known outside of the baseball circle, where a flood of true superstars retired lately from the MLB the past 5 years. Several years from now, these guys will catch up and be the new Griffey's and young Pujols and Greg Maddux's, but for now, I think this will continue to hurt ratings.
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I guess we've been assuming this, but we really should clarify...
We've been talking about TV ratings, but baseball also still uses radio as an outlet. And since baseball on the radio is still a beloved way of following a game, many people do not feel like they have to actually watch games on TV (and many prefer the radio over TV). So that's drawing baseball fans way from the TV rating, but they are still part of the baseball fan base. TV ratings alone, no matter what part of the season, is not the best measure for baseball.
Basketball and football are also on the radio, but that's often a 2nd choice for NBA & NFL fans. They would much rather watch the games of TV.
Now days we also have online ways to follow games (some free, some subscription based).
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Yes, baseball is much better to listen to on the radio than the other sports.
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Better
San Antonio sez hi.
No one can make you
Do what they want to
You know you're stronger
Than the lies
That they tell you
In Love With This Game
Well OK, perhaps they weren't the biggest media darling, but it did seem like Tim Duncan was the type of player the NBA wanted to promote for image reasons.
Metsistentialist Thinker
The way I've always viewed the Big Four is this way:
1. The NFL is the league in America that everyone--or as near to everyone as is possible in this country--is invested in to some degree or another, and the Super Bowl is without a doubt the one sporting event out of the year where almost everyone watches...not just the fans, but just those who like the festive atmosphere and pre-game and halftime shows and commercials and big plays and shouting and drinking...
So the NFL is easily the most popular in America, but it's also LIMITED, mostly, to America in that respect.
2. MLB is very much, I find, more and more "America's Game," which of course football now claims to be, but really, I'd say it's not--it's the most popular sport, but not most representative of America...in the NFL, you have *mostly* black and white players, with some Latinos joining in now...in baseball, EVERYONE plays--whites, blacks, Mexicans, Venezuelans, Cubans, players from other Latin American nations, there are Japanese and Taiwanese players...it's a lot more diverse, and I think that's it's biggest strength as a sport, and it's the reason it's stayed popular, because while it might be the #2 sport right now to football, it's sort of like the English language in a World Linguistics setting--
Just as English is the most-spoken second-language in the world, even though Chinese has more native speakers, likewise, even though the NFL is #1 overall in terms of popularity in America, it's still a #2 sport for many of not most of the nation, and to generalize just a bit, for some minorities--Latinos and Asians come to mind--who might not immediately be drawn to the NBA or NHL or even NFL for a lack of cultural connection, MLB is a #1 or #2 (in this instance behind soccer) sport once again...after all, very few prominent Asian basketball players, and no prominent Asian hockey players, but surely there are prominent Asian baseball players, so it's in this way, as the most popular #2 sport in America, that MLB really is surviving and to an extent thriving right now...not the favorite sport of many (myself excluded, I love my 49ers and Anaheim Ducks, but the Mets come first for me) but still, nearly everyone is invested to at least some extent...it's ingrained into our culture enough that if the Yankees or Red Sox or, here in LA, the Dodgers are playing, the average person will follow them in passing on the news, and then maybe watch or take in a game or two when they really start to contend.
3. The NBA is the sport, it seems, that swings the most radically of the Four in terms of popularity--either everyone is talking about Magic/MJ/Kobe and Shaq/Lebron, or else no one cares...part of that's due to how the game is built--five starters and ten or so more off the bench means a small team and a reliance on star power, and if your regional team doesn't have it, chances are you don't care about that team, and possibly about the game...if you care about anyone, it's the Kobe Bryants and Lebron Jameses, but then, that's not being a fan of the game, that's following these players as one would follow celebrities, and its no surprise, thus, that the "Celebrity Culture" and NBA players and teams overflow and overlap the most out of all the Big Four leagues...the elephant in the room, of course, is the idea that black people IN GENERAL are more inclined to like or follow the NBA than those of other races as, well, most of the the NBA is made up of black players, and try as one may to skirt that issue for PC reasons, without a grain of racism intended, there is some truth to that assertion, while admitting, of course, that it's a generalized point and thus not obviously applicable to everyone...the point I make here is that, between a large portion of the base of the NBA being comprised of a minority group in the USA, and many people's rejection of the league specifically because of it's image of connecting with celebrities and wealth--not all too popular in a Great Recession America--the NBA as a SPORT is less popular than MLB, I'd say, while the individual rivalries--say, Lebron vs. Kobe--draw larger ratings than most non-playoff or Yankees/Red Sox-esque MLB matchups.
(I'd also note that I'm not a fan of a sport where you score repeatedly every minute as that seems to dilute the importance or specialty of the act, but that's a matter of personal taste and not an attempt at an objective observation.)
4. The NHL is in an odd position of being the smallest market, the most stable internally in one sense, and the most unstable internally in another sense...that is, the NHL has a fan-base in certain regions--Canada, the Northern and Northeastern US, the Atlantic Coast of the US down to the Mason-Dixon line, and by this point, with all three teams being playoff contenders in the last few years and the Kings just winning the Cup, California as well--that it can count on...there are no worries, for the most part, that there will be a lack of interest or support for a Canadian team now, or for the Rangers or Bruins, or Capitals or Wild, or even, again, the Sharks, Ducks, or Kings given the strength of the ownership groups there, the increased interest in hockey in the region, and the fact the three California teams form a nice rivalry that has really solidified its popularity here, as all three teams have had playoff runs in the last few years, and here in California Bay Area fans love to root against LA fans love to root against Anaheim/Orange County fans and so on in a circle...
So for 2/3 of the league, the situation is sound, and the NHL can rest assured on there...the instability comes from the other 1/3, all the teams (minus the long-standing St. Louis Blues) in Middle and Southern America...hockey (to generalize again) really only historically has an appeal for a white demographic (though there obviously have been black and Latino players, and I can say here in LA County, while they were vastly outnumbered by the white fans, there were some Latino LA Kings fans as well rooting for them to win the Cup, T-shirts and all) and so has a narrower base to work off of, and that, combined with the folly of trying to get people in a recession-hit desert like Arizona to go and see a game played in a frozen environment that is completely alien to the 110 degree heat of Phoenix, endangers the league, and keeps it in 4th in the US, yet ironically 1st or 2nd in popularity worldwide, given it's overseas history...so it's a smaller fan-base, but for those areas where the NHL can depend upon attendance, it's a more solid fan-base than, say, the NBA, where playing basketball in Toronto or Minnesota is nowhere near the near from-birth institution hockey is or can be, and if the Knicks or Nets aren't good, people don't go out and see them, whereas the Maple Leafs and Canadiens have fallen on hard times and still draw well, and so it goes throughout the league.
If I were to REALLY generalize...
I'd say the largest group of people follow the NFL as their #1 and MLB as their #2, and then pick the NBA, NHL, Soccer or NASCAR, depending on their ethnicity and region (again, to over-generalize) for their #3, and anything after that is up in the air.
White and from the Northern US, chances you'll follow some NHL action go up...
Latino, and the chances it's soccer go up...
Black and/or from LA or Boston (the two title towns) and, again, to over-generalize, chances it's the NBA you'll follow go up...
From the South, and the chances you'll follow NASCAR go up.
Again, to GENERALIZE, I realize first-hand how flimsy that distinction can be...I'm near LA, but don't follow basketball...however, I'm white and follow hockey, so whatever, make of it what you will.
To close with a last word on MLB, though:
All the other sports--soccer, hockey, NASCAR, basketball, and football--are all fun and all have their place in the American sports scene...
Bu what will keep MLB relevant in America, barring further strikes or scandals, is, simply put, again, it's demographics.
Almost all of the NHL is white.
Almost all of NASCAR is white.
The majority of the NBA is black.
The majority of the NFL is white and black.
But BASEBALL is truly diverse--whites, blacks, Asians, and Latinos ALL play it, and THAT'S closer to the makeup of America...
And actually, I don't know about the rest of you, but here near LA, the makeup of MLB--whites and Latinos making up the two largest groups, then blacks, then Asians--matches the demographics of LA perfectly.
It's structure may be slower than the other sports, but ultimately, it's structure also works to its advantage--it can be intense enough to grip you and hold you in October, yet lazy enough that you can just enjoy the summer sun with baseball in the background in June...what's more, there's no clock, no way to cheat the other team of it's chance to tie the game up--
You may be the Yankees and up 3-0 in the series and leading in Game 4, but you HAVE to give the Red Sox their final chance at bat, you can't sit on the ball or run out the clock, and the Red Sox can't just sub in their best player, they have to send in who's due up or someone from the bench, they're due naught but their equal shot that night...and the next night...and the next night...and the next night.
And for all the talk of baseball being a game of numbers, there's something more poetic and democratic about that than a calculated effort to run out an artificial clock.
THAT'S what keeps MLB going and keeps it America's Game--
White, Black, Latino, Asian, Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Republican, Democrat, Libertarian--
Whatever your ethnicity or religious stance or political position, EVERYONE finds something or someone in baseball to become connected in.
And THAT'S why baseball has marked the times, and reminds us of all that once was good--and could be again.
Last edited by Shea Knight; 06-24-2012 at 08:54 AM.
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It's true that MLB's racial background is the most balanced, but worldwide basketball is more popular than baseball by a lot.
In most parts of the world, baseball is considered a poor man's version of cricket (which the #2 sport world-wide; 2nd to soccer).
Metsistentialist Thinker
Basketball perhaps, but not the NBA, I would venture--
And again, I draw a distinction between interest in Kobe/Lebron/Rubio/Individual Stars as opposed to "the NBA," that is, people genuinely rooting for teams rather than players...
Outside of a handful of teams (Lakers and Celtics will always get those who follow the TEAM, but I'd submit many fans of, say, the Heat aren't fans of the Heat as much as they are fans of the Heat because of D-Wade/Lebron/Bosh...they root for the team not out of loyalty to the team, but out of fandom towards the players) people watch basketball for individual matchups, not for the league.
BY CONTRAST, no matter who's on the team...
People will always watch the Cubs, no matter how bad they are...
And people will tune in, sure, maybe to see Jeter vs. Jon Lester, but OVERALL to see Yankees/Red Sox AS A TEAM CONTEST...
Quality players heighten the rivalry, but whoever they have on their team, Yankees fans and Red Sox fans will always root for their side and against the other (unless, of course, that enemy side needs to beat someone else in order to secure them a playoff spot, but that's another story.)
In any case--
The NBA has more popular players...but MLB has more team loyalty, and as a result, basketball is more widely played, but MLB is the more followed league in terms of following and rooting for teams.
"Ya Gotta Believe!" -Tug McGraw ... "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life." -James T. Kirk ... "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -Sherlock Holmes ... "It is out of the deepest depth that the highest must come to its height." -Friedrich Nietzsche ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Braves Fan For Life
And yet, they never really did. If he was promoted as such, people wouldn't be blanching at the asseration that he is the greatest power forward of all time (he is).
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If go by stats alone, Karl Malone has Duncan beat.
It's just that Malone never won a championship, while Duncan won 4.
So different from MLB, where rings don't play a critical role in a player's legacy.
A gametime decision
When The Heat won the championship, the back page headline in the New York paper I saw (it was either The Post or The Daily News, I forget which) was "LeBron earns His Championship". Not The Heat, LeBron. That tells me all I need to know about the NBA.
"My truck done shocked the fire out of me, and my arm don't hurt no more." - Roy Oswalt, channeling Dizzy Dean
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Also depends if one considers the other Malone a center or power forward. And I know the LQ issues will rear its ugly head, but compared to his peers, Pettit was more dominating than either Malone or Duncan. It is between those 4 with Garnett and Barkely just outside of that bubble.
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This is not the norm - this series had some extenuating circumstances. Plus, every-time, say Fox is advertising for the Saturday game, they will say something like "watch Jeter and the Yankees face off against Big Papi and the Red Sox", so its not like they are pulling the "team-only" angle either. In fact, I seem to remember several headlines similar to "A-Rod finally wins one" in 2009, but I could be mistaken.
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A gametime decision
You could be right, I wasn't living in New York in 2009. But I'll bet you didn't see any "Pujols wins a Championship" headlines in 2006.
"My truck done shocked the fire out of me, and my arm don't hurt no more." - Roy Oswalt, channeling Dizzy Dean
Learning all the time.
I said exactly the same thing to my wife this morning when an advert came on TV about LeBron winning the NBA, not the Heat. This NBA finals series was all about LeBron, as was last years. NBA tends to be a lot more individual focused than team focused, as a TV selling point.
"A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz." ~Humphrey Bogart
No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference. ~Tommy Lasorda
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True, but Pujols hadn't been labeled as "The Choker" yet, either, like A-Rod and James. I do not remember "Dirk wins Championship" headlines or "Shaq wins championship headlines" or "Jordan" wins championship" headlines or "Duncan wins championship" headlines either.
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That is because the top 3-4 players on each team are involved in a disproportionate number of plays and are even more important to a teams success than the top 3-4 MLB players.
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