I guess I wasn't clear. You look after you throw.Originally Posted by pcarnette
Baseball Voodoo
I guess I wasn't clear. You look after you throw.
eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker
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It's like when you finally get them using great mechanics in dry swings, they get in the box ... and you throw one right at them. Fail.
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Well, he threw Tuesday. We started at about 25 feet with drill work and increased to 35 feet with medium velocity. He threw his smoke on the last few. His accuracy is much better, and it's all tied to better mechanics. He threw about 25 pitches from 35 feet, and only about five made it past me. Some were a little high. I am stressing bring his arm to 90 degrees after separation. He had been bring it to 45 degrees, and it was causing all sorts of issues.
His coach was encouraged today when he saw him playing catch. It's a building block. He's not throwing off of a mound right now. I'll probably test him on a mound after another month of throwing. For now, we're going to work on the mechanics. We're going to throw Friday and Sunday. Then, if he's throwing accurately, I'll increase his distance to 40 feet on flat ground.
Scorekeeper
HeinekenMan,
Glad to hear things are getting better. I can only imagine how bad it must have been, if you’re so happy with 20% of the throws from 25’ being so wild you couldn’t catch them. At 25’, there should never be a throw that a partner couldn’t either catch or get drilled by. In any case the ball should never get past the receiver.
Just don’t be in a rush! Don’t move him back until his throws at 25’ are 100%.
The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.
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Disagree.
Check out Charlie Furbush. Few pitchers outside of submariners fall off to one side as radically as he does. His fastballs have a sweeping motion to the opposite side of the plate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWxeQQ6YCIM
There are two kinds of losers.....Those that don't do what they are told, and those that do only what they are told.
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Yes, I understood. However, my son would still look down while striding to make sure he stepped on the 'X' while screwing up his throw in the process because it wasn't a smooth motion. In a sense, it became more robotic as a result. It was the whole couldn't see the forest for the trees.
He's older now, so I'll try it this afternoon. Thanks.
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It was 20 percent uncatchable from 35 feet. I caught all of his throws from 25 feet. So that's slightly better. And I'm a fat guy perched on a bucket. So catchable is probably a relative term. LOL
Scorekeeper
I can understand your situation. I’m not only a fat guy, I’m a paraplegic. So when I played catch with my kid, I was either in a chair or on a bucket myself. So here’s what I’m telling you and that you have to believe. If you force him to throw it where you can catch every throw at 35, 40, 50, and even 60, eventually he’ll do it, other than the really rare times he trips or something like it. Now when it comes to “pitching’, things will be different, but its one thing missing a release point by a bit and the ball not hitting its target at full speed and with movement, and a throw not at full body speed.
Just give it time.
The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.
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Catching from a chair? Wow. That takes some dedication. Have you been a paraplegic your whole life? I have a friend who was born with a spinal problem and who has never walked. I think being a kid who can't do all of the stuff other kids can do must have been extremely difficult for him.
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I agree. I had my son throw from 46ft again last night, and he only had to chase after three balls vs at least 12 last time. Of course, there were some throws I didn't like where we flew open, and I made him redo those; but otherwise it was a night and day difference. Right now, I'm having him focusing on hitting a radius that I can create with my glove as to what I deem catchable. Like clayadams suggested, I'm not concerned with too high or too low as much as I am too far left or right. As he progresses at this distance, I will tighten the circle.
Scorekeeper
Its not as difficult as it sounds. Its just that a lot of folks wouldn’t even think to try it. Of course it helped that I was a catcher when I played. I had one of those green plastic lawn chairs I’d use because it was so light to haul around. When my boy got to where he could throw pretty well, he’d have great fun seeing if he could get me to lean far enough to fall over. Then one day he threw one down by the ground that knocked a chip out of the chair. From then on, he had a new goal that he finally reached a couple years later. He threw one hard and low that I didn’t get to. It broke the bottom of the chair leg off, sending me a$$ over teacups, face first into the dirt, to the great delight of the boy. He still has that piece of plastic, and enjoys telling the story about how he dumped dad.
One of the things that made it easier for me, was employing something an old ML catcher and manager by the name of Birdie Tebbetts told me at a workout when he was managing for the Indians. He said to make things a lot easier for the pitcher to see where he was throwing the ball, and to make the throw back a little less “wearing” on the catcher’s arm, in bullpens and when pitchers are working on something, don’t set up in the normal catching position, but rather with the glove never more than a couple inches behind the plate.
That saved my shins and feet sitting in a chair or bucket, but it was always better for the pitchers because they got to see where the pitch was supposed to be called rather than some point 3-5’ further back.
The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.
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Great stories. Ya. I fell off the bucket twice this spring at practice. In front of my whole team. Both times, it was on a high pitch. I leaned back for the ball, and the bucket tipped. All I could do was brace for the fall.Its not as difficult as it sounds. Its just that a lot of folks wouldn’t even think to try it. Of course it helped that I was a catcher when I played. I had one of those green plastic lawn chairs I’d use because it was so light to haul around. When my boy got to where he could throw pretty well, he’d have great fun seeing if he could get me to lean far enough to fall over. Then one day he threw one down by the ground that knocked a chip out of the chair. From then on, he had a new goal that he finally reached a couple years later. He threw one hard and low that I didn’t get to. It broke the bottom of the chair leg off, sending me a$$ over teacups, face first into the dirt, to the great delight of the boy. He still has that piece of plastic, and enjoys telling the story about how he dumped dad.
One of the things that made it easier for me, was employing something an old ML catcher and manager by the name of Birdie Tebbetts told me at a workout when he was managing for the Indians. He said to make things a lot easier for the pitcher to see where he was throwing the ball, and to make the throw back a little less “wearing” on the catcher’s arm, in bullpens and when pitchers are working on something, don’t set up in the normal catching position, but rather with the glove never more than a couple inches behind the plate.
That saved my shins and feet sitting in a chair or bucket, but it was always better for the pitchers because they got to see where the pitch was supposed to be called rather than some point 3-5’ further back.
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So...I have some mechanics issues to discuss. We have succeeded in getting my son to throw strikes. We made sure he is reaching the high-cock position, and we encouraged him to go more over the top. This new motion has left less margin for error. His coach is now trying to encourage him to tilt his shoulders toward his glove side starting at separation. Is this the tilt that determines arm slot? If so, it seems like tilting his shoulders would necessitate a change to more of a three-quarters motion.
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I just wanted to say that this has helped immensely. Today, we got back at it after a break of about 10 days. I told him to bring his hands down with force during separation. You are absolutely correct. The acceleration causes his arm to flip right around in that circular pattern to the high cock position.
We had been focusing on drill work over the past month. So this was the first time he attempted to put it all together. His mechanics were remarkable today, and he was throwing relatively hard. He threw lots of strikes. His balls are mostly high across the middle of the plate instead of five feet to either side of the plate. He's really excited, and so am I. I think he's close to the 40 mph range. He's probably around 38 right now. I imagine he'll pick up a few more miles per hour before the start of the fall season, and that should allow him to throw some quality innings.
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Last edited by Baseball gLove; 07-18-2012 at 04:46 PM.
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In light of new information, I figured I'd rekindle this old thread. At some point in the past few weeks, pronation at delivery was discussed as a part of the deceleration process. I believe I mentioned my son having a lot of movement on his pitch from high and inside on a right-handed batter to low and outside when it reached the catcher. Someone suggested that he was pronating or supinating. I'm not sure which. But I now understand the two, and he's always had supination. This is what I've always referred to as him throwing sidearm. And this is why I've been trying to get him to flex the elbow more. His pitches sometimes leave his hand when his arm is straight out to his side. But I am starting to think that it's a failure to establish early rotation of the arm that leads to his failure to establish the desired flexed elbow position with the elbow seeming to lead the hand as he reaches the, um, driveline point. Boy, i feel like an 8-year-old boy talking about the female sex organs. I hope I didn't mix up my uterus and my ovaries.
Baseball Voodoo
If he's throwing sidearm, it's because his shoulders are even with the ground at release. If you want to change this 'arm slot', he would have to tilt his shoulders.
eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker
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Ya. I don't think this is sidearm. We just went outside and threw, and I noticed a few things. If he gets his arm in line with his back shoulder, it's rare. It's usually a tad below. And he seems to drop the elbow while cocking the arm. And it appears that low position of the elbow is forcing his hand away from his body. So his elbow is actually below the shoulder, but his hand is at shoulder height. It is driving me insane. I can't get him to stop doing it no matter what I say. With that said, I think it might disappear when he throws harder. I need to film it to be sure. By the way, when his elbow drops like that, he also tends to push the ball. I'm going to re-stress the idea of slamming the arm down at the start of the swing. That helped to bring his elbow up higher when we tried it a few weeks ago. But we sort of got away from that as we were starting from separation instead of before it.
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HM... video video video! Record it then put it in slow motion. Even if you don't post it anywhere it will help you and him immensley!
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I will do some video on Friday. He threw a 50-pitch bullpen today and had good accuracy and good speed. About 35 were strikes. About 6-8 were wild, and most of those were due to the issue already discussed. He knows how to correct it now, though. I told him that's the only thing he needs to think about when he throws. He told me that he doesn't think about anything when he throws. LOL. He also seems to start his shoulder rotation before his stride foot lands. This has bothered me to no end. It seems incorrect, and I suspect it will lead to balance issues and poor control. But I have to admit that he gets some extra zip on his fastball when he does this.
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Interesting that you mention this as I am having this same problem with my ten year-old son. Whenever he tries to throw harder, he does but also increase his tendency to fly open, which, as I understand it, is rotating the shoulder before the stride foot lands. I keep telling him to feel his stride foot land before he throws. That seems to be helping some. His throwing accuracy at ~46 ft is much improved, but we went back to the wind-up tonight and had a lot of accuracy issues.
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Ya. I feel like he's not staying closed. But his hips still land closed. It happens so fast that I probably need to shoot video to figure out what's really happening. I don't know what your boy is doing wrong in the wind up. But I see so many kids with poor balance. They struggle with it on the mound and at the plate. I have one kid who has terrible balance issues at the plate, and I decided I'm going to have him stand on a wooden beam and swing at balls. But I feel like i need to set up a net for him.
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