Ranking the HoF Players: 226-236 (Final Election)

[DoubleX]

Project Summary: To rank the worthiness of the players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame from most worthy to least worthy.

Election Format: Voters are to submit ballots ranking their 10 most worthy remaining Hall of Fame players in order of worthiness. Each first place vote will be worth 10 points, with each successive rank being worth one point less than the previous rank, ending in a tenth place vote being worth 1 point. Players will also receive one additional point for each ballot they are listed on and players must be listed on at least three ballots in order to be elected. The five players with the highest support at the end of each election will be elected in the order of their support. Elections will last approximately seven days.
- Tiebreakers: Tiebreakers at the end of an election will be decided in the following order: 1) Total ballot appearances in that election; 2) Total points in that election irrespective of number of ballots; 3) Number of first place votes in that election; 4) Finish in previous election. Players that lose a tiebreaker for the fifth spot in an election will be voted in as the sixth player in that election, with the next election to elect just four players.

Factors to Consider: As this project focuses on players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame, subjective qualities beyond just statistics should be taken into consideration in determining a player's relative worthiness. In that vein, the voting guidelines that the BBWAA is to follow in actual National Baseball Hall of Fame elections, may be instructive (though not necessarily determinative in this project): "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

Player Eligibility: Only players that have been elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame as players are eligible, including Negro League players and 19th Century players. A complete list of individuals that have been inducted as players is available at the National Baseball Hall of Fame's website, and is recreated below along with each player's corresponding BBF Rank as determined by this project:

Results
1) Babe Ruth
2) Willie Mays
3) Ty Cobb
4) Ted Williams
5) Hank Aaron
6) Honus Wagner
7) Walter Johnson
8) Lou Gehrig
9) Cy Young
10) Stan Musial
11) Mickey Mantle
12) Rogers Hornsby
13) Jackie Robinson
14) Tris Speaker
15) Josh Gibson
16) Eddie Collins
17) Satchel Paige
18) Grover Alexander
19) Frank Robinson
20) Joe DiMaggio
21) Oscar Charleston
22) Mike Schmidt
23) Lefty Grove
24) Tom Seaver
25) Cap Anson
26) Christy Mathewson
27) Rickey Henderson
28) Jimmie Foxx
29) Nap Lajoie
30) Joe Morgan
31) Johnny Bench
32) Mel Ott
33) Warren Spahn
34) Yogi Berra
35) Cal Ripken
36) George Brett
37) Pop Lloyd
38) Kid Nichols
39) Eddie Mathews
40) Bob Feller
41) Roberto Clemente
42) Bob Gibson
43) Joe Williams
44) Carl Yastrzemski
45) Hank Greenberg
46) Dan Brouthers
47) Steve Carlton
48) Sandy Koufax
49) Ed Delahanty
50) Johnny Mize
51) Al Kaline
52) Turkey Stearnes
53) Wade Boggs
54) Charlie Gehringer
55) Mickey Cochrane
56) Reggie Jackson
57) Arky Vaughan
58) Roger Connor
59) Nolan Ryan
---Top 25% Cutoff---
60) Robin Yount
61) Rod Carew
62) Tony Gwynn
63) Carl Hubbell
64) Roy Campanella
65) Ernie Banks
66) Sam Crawford
67) Duke Snider
68) George Davis
69) King Kelly
70) John Ward
71) Eddie Murray
72) Bullet Rogan
73) Harmon Killebrew
74) Buck Ewing
75) Billy Hamilton
76) Gaylord Perry
77) Carlton Fisk
78) Paul Waner
79) Juan Marichal
80) Al Simmons
81) John Clarkson
82) Martin Dihigo
83) Robin Roberts
84) Willie McCovey
85) Frankie Frisch
86) Phil Niekro
87) Eddie Plank
88) Gary Carter
89) Whitey Ford
90) Tim Keefe
91) Mordecai Brown
92) Luke Appling
93) Brooks Robinson
94) Ferguson Jenkins
95) Willie Stargell
96) Frank Baker
97) Jim Palmer
98) Joe Cronin
99) Bill Dickey
100) Jesse Burkett
101) Harry Heilmann
102) Fred Clarke
103) Buck Leonard
104) Hoyt Wilhelm
105) Ed Walsh
106) Bert Blyleven
107) Barry Larkin
108) Gabby Hartnett
109) Dave Winfield
110) George Sisler
111) Mule Suttles
112) Joe Medwick
113) Jim O'Rourke
114) Jud Wilson
115) Ozzie Smith
116) Paul Molitor
117) Charles Radbourn
118) Monte Irvin
---Top 50% Cutoff---
119) Ryne Sandberg
120) Roberto Alomar
121) Ron Santo
122) Billy Williams
123) Willie Keeler
124) Willie Wells
125) Cristobal Torriente
126) Dennis Eckersley
127) Zack Wheat
128) Larry Doby
129) Amos Rusie
130) Goose Goslin
131) Bill Terry
132) Don Drysdale
133) Dizzy Dean
134) Lou Brock
135) Rube Waddell
136) Cool Papa Bell
137) Hal Newhouser
138) Joe Gordon
139) Kirby Puckett
140) Lou Boudreau
141) Ralph Kiner
142) Rich Gossage
143) Dazzy Vance
144) Pee Wee Reese
145) Sam Thompson
146) Pud Galvin
147) Billy Herman
148) Biz Mackey
149) Louis Santop
150) Early Wynn
151) Stan Coveleski
152) Edd Roush
153) Don Sutton
154) Ted Lyons
155) Frank Chance
156) Max Carey
157) Jimmy Collins
158) Earl Averill
159) Richie Ashburn
160) Andre Dawson
161) Bobby Doerr
162) Pie Traynor
163) Elmer Flick
164) Joe McGinnity
165) Joe Kelley
166) Roger Bresnahan
167) Jim Bunning
168) Ray Brown
169) Red Ruffing
170) Bid McPhee
171) Bobby Wallace
172) Orlando Cepeda
173) Hugh Jennings
174) Willard Brown
175) Enos Slaughter
176) Bob Lemon
177) Hugh Duffy
---Top 75% Cutoff---
178) Jake Beckley
179) Pete Hill
180) Mickey Welch
181) Red Faber
182) Addie Joss
183) Ray Dandridge
184) Bill Foster
185) Sam Rice
186) Frank Grant
187) Nellie Fox
188) Joe Sewell
189) Hilton Smith
190) Chuck Klein
191) Phil Rizzuto
192) Luis Aparicio
193) Jose Mendez
194) Lefty Gomez
195) Tony Perez
196) Vic Willis
197) Kiki Cuyler
198) Rollie Fingers
199) Eppa Rixey
200) Hack Wilson
201) Johnny Evers
202) Tony Lazzeri
203) Ernie Lombardi
204) Leon Day
205) Chief Bender
206) Rabbit Maranville
207) Jim Rice
208) Dave Bancroft
209) Joe Tinker
210) Bruce Sutter
211) Heinie Manush
212) Red Schoendienst
213) Catfish Hunter
214) Burleigh Grimes
215) Earle Combs
216) Harry Hooper
217) Waite Hoyt
218) Ben Taylor
219) Jim Bottomley
220) George Kell
221) Herb Pennock
222) Jack Chesbro
223) Ross Youngs
224) Bill Mazeroski
225) Travis Jackson

Master List

Player				BBF Rank
Hank Aaron			5
Grover Alexander		18
Roberto Alomar			120
Cap Anson			25
Luis Aparicio			192
Luke Appling			92
Richie Ashburn			159
Earl Averill			158
Frank Baker			96
Dave Bancroft			208
Ernie Banks			65
Jake Beckley			178
Cool Papa Bell			136
Johnny Bench			31
Chief Bender			205
Yogi Berra			34
Bert Blyleven			106
Wade Boggs			53
Jim Bottomley			219
Lou Boudreau			140
Roger Bresnahan			166
George Brett			36
Lou Brock			134
Dan Brouthers			46
Mordecai Brown			91
Ray Brown			168
Willard Brown			174
Jim Bunning			167
Jesse Burkett			100
Roy Campanella			64
Rod Carew			61
Max Carey			156
Steve Carlton			47
Gary Carter			88
Orlando Cepeda			172
Frank Chance			155
Oscar Charleston		21
Jack Chesbro			222
Fred Clarke			102
John Clarkson			81
Roberto Clemente		41
Ty Cobb				3
Mickey Cochrane			55
Eddie Collins			16
Jimmy Collins			157
Earle Combs			215
Roger Connor			58
Andy Cooper
Stan Coveleski			151
Sam Crawford			66
Joe Cronin			98
Kiki Cuyler			197
Ray Dandridge			183
George Davis			68
Andre Dawson			160
Leon Day			204
Dizzy Dean			133
Ed Delahanty			49
Bill Dickey			99
Martin Dihigo			82
Joe DiMaggio			20
Larry Doby			128
Bobby Doerr			161
Don Drysdale			132
Hugh Duffy			177
Dennis Eckersley		126
Johnny Evers			201
Buck Ewing			74
Red Faber			181
Bob Feller			40
Rick Ferrell
Rollie Fingers			198
Carlton Fisk			77
Elmer Flick			163
Whitey Ford			89
Bill Foster			184
Nellie Fox			187
Jimmie Foxx			28
Frankie Frisch			85
Pud Galvin			146
Lou Gehrig			8
Charlie Gehringer		54
Bob Gibson			42
Josh Gibson			15
Lefty Gomez			194
Joe Gordon			138
Goose Goslin			130
Rich Gossage			142
Frank Grant			186
Hank Greenberg			45
Burleigh Grimes			214
Lefty Grove			23
Tony Gwynn			62
Chick Hafey
Jesse Haines
Billy Hamilton			75
Gabby Hartnett			108
Harry Heilmann			101
Rickey Henderson		27
Billy Herman			147
Pete Hill			179
Harry Hooper			216
Rogers Hornsby			12
Waite Hoyt			217
Carl Hubbell			63
Catfish Hunter			213
Monte Irvin			118
Reggie Jackson			56
Travis Jackson			225
Ferguson Jenkins		94
Hugh Jennings			173
Judy Johnson
Walter Johnson			7
Addie Joss			182
Al Kaline			51
Tim Keefe			90
Willie Keeler			123
George Kell			220
Joe Kelley			165
George Kelly
King Kelly			69
Harmon Killebrew		73
Ralph Kiner			141
Chuck Klein			190
Sandy Koufax			48
Nap Lajoie			29
Barry Larkin			107
Tony Lazzeri			202
Bob Lemon			176
Buck Leonard			103
Freddie Lindstrom
Pop Lloyd			37
Ernie Lombardi			203
Ted Lyons			154
Biz Mackey			148
Mickey Mantle			11
Heinie Manush			211
Rabbit Maranville		206
Juan Marichal			79
Rube Marquard
Eddie Mathews			39
Christy Mathewson		26
Willie Mays			2
Bill Mazeroski			224
Tommy McCarthy
Willie McCovey			84
Joe McGinnity			164
Bid McPhee			170
Joe Medwick			112
Jose Mendez			193
Johnny Mize			50
Paul Molitor			116
Joe Morgan			30
Eddie Murray			71
Stan Musial			10
Hal Newhouser			137
Kid Nichols			38
Phil Niekro			86
Jim O’Rourke			113
Mel Ott				32
Satchel Paige			17
Jim Palmer			97
Herb Pennock			221
Tony Perez			195
Gaylord Perry			76
Eddie Plank			87
Kirby Puckett			139
Charles Radbourn		117
Pee Wee Reese			144
Jim Rice			207
Sam Rice			185
Cal Ripken			35
Eppa Rixey			199
Phil Rizzuto			191
Robin Roberts			83
Brooks Robinson			93
Frank Robinson			19
Jackie Robinson			13
Bullet Rogan			72
Edd Roush			152
Red Ruffing			169
Amos Rusie			129
Babe Ruth			1
Nolan Ryan			59
Ryne Sandberg			119
Ron Santo			121
Louis Santop			149
Ray Schalk
Mike Schmidt			22
Red Schoendienst		212
Tom Seaver			24
Joe Sewell			188
Al Simmons			80
George Sisler			110
Enos Slaughter			175
Hilton Smith			190
Ozzie Smith			115
Duke Snider			67
Warren Spahn			33
Tris Speaker			14
Willie Stargell			95
Turkey Stearnes			52
Bruce Sutter			210
Mule Suttles			111
Don Sutton			153
Ben Taylor			218
Bill Terry			131
Sam Thompson			145
Joe Tinker			209
Cristobal Torriente		125
Pie Traynor			162
Dazzy Vance			143
Arky Vaughan			57
Rube Waddell			135
Honus Wagner			6
Bobby Wallace			171
Ed Walsh			105
Lloyd Waner
Paul Waner			78
John Ward			70
Mickey Welch			180
Willie Wells			124
Zack Wheat			127
Hoyt Wilhelm			104
Billy Williams			122
Joe Williams			43
Ted Williams			4
Vic Willis			196
Hack Wilson			200
Jud Wilson			114
Dave Winfield			109
Early Wynn			150
Carl Yastrzemski		44
Cy Young			9
Ross Youngs			223
Robin Yount			60

Ranking by Primary Position
Catcher (14): Josh Gibson (15), Johnny Bench (31), Yogi Berra (34), Mickey Cochrane (55), Roy Campanella (64), Buck Ewing (74), Carlton Fisk (77), Gary Carter (88), Bill Dickey (99), Gabby Hartnett (108), Biz Mackey (148), Louis Santop (149), Roger Bresnahan (166), Ernie Lombardi (203)

First Base (20): Lou Gehrig (8), Cap Anson (25), Jimmie Foxx (28), Hank Greenberg (45), Dan Brouthers (46), Johnny Mize (50), Roger Connor (58), Eddie Murray (71), Harmon Killebrew (73), Willie McCovey (84), Buck Leonard (103), George Sisler (110), Mule Suttles (111), Bill Terry (131), Frank Chance (155), Orlando Cepeda (172), Jake Beckley (178), Tony Perez (195), Ben Taylor (218), Jim Bottomley (219)

Second Base (20): Rogers Hornsby (12), Jackie Robinson (13), Eddie Collins (16), Nap Lajoie (29), Joe Morgan (30), Charlie Gehringer (54), Rod Carew (61), Frankie Frisch (85), Ryne Sandberg (119), Roberto Alomar (120), Joe Gordon (138), Billy Herman (147), Bobby Doerr (161), Bid McPhee (170), Frank Grant (186), Nellie Fox (187), Johnny Evers (201), Tony Lazzeri (202), Red Schoendienst (212), Bill Mazeroski (224)

Shortstop (24): Honus Wagner (6), Cal Ripken (35), Pop Lloyd (37), Arky Vaughan (57), Robin Yount (60), Ernie Banks (65), George Davis (68), John Ward (70), Luke Appling (92), Joe Cronin (98), Barry Larkin (107), Ozzie Smith (115), Willie Wells (124), Lou Boudreau (140), Pee Wee Reese (144), Bobby Wallace (171), Hugh Jennings (173), Joe Sewell (188), Phil Rizzuto (191), Luis Aparicio (192), Rabbit Maranville (206), Dave Bancroft (208), Joe Tinker (209), Travis Jackson (225)

Third Base (13): Mike Schmidt (22), George Brett (36), Eddie Mathews (39), Wade Boggs (53), Brooks Robinson (93), Frank Baker (96), Jud Wilson (114), Paul Molitor (116), Ron Santo (121), Jimmy Collins (157), Pie Traynor (162), Ray Dandridge (183), George Kell (220)

Left Field (21): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Rickey Henderson (27), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Ed Delahanty (49), Al Simmons (80), Willie Stargell (95), Jesse Burkett (100), Fred Clarke (102), Joe Medwick (112), Jim O'Rourke (113), Monte Irvin (118), Billy Williams (122), Zack Wheat (127), Goose Goslin (130), Lou Brock (134), Ralph Kiner (141), Joe Kelley (165), Jim Rice (207), Heinie Manush (211), Harry Hooper (216)

Center Field (22): Willie Mays (2), Ty Cobb (3), Mickey Mantle (11), Tris Speaker (14), Joe DiMaggio (20), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Duke Snider (67), Billy Hamilton (75), Cristobal Torriente (125), Larry Doby (128), Cool Papa Bell (136), Kirby Puckett (139), Edd Roush (152), Max Carey (156), Earl Averill (158), Richie Ashburn (159), Willard Brown (174), Hugh Duffy (177), Pete Hill (179), Hack Wilson (200), Earle Combs (215)

Right Field (22): Babe Ruth (1), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Mel Ott (32), Roberto Clemente (41), Al Kaline (51), Reggie Jackson (56), Tony Gwynn (62), Sam Crawford (66), King Kelly (69), Paul Waner (78), Harry Heilmann (101), Dave Winfield (109), Willie Keeler (123), Sam Thompson (145), Andre Dawson (160), Elmer Flick (163), Enos Slaughter (175), Sam Rice (185), Chuck Klein (190), Kiki Cuyler (197), Ross Youngs (223)

Pitcher (69): Walter Johnson (7), Cy Young (9), Satchel Paige (17), Grover Alexander (18), Lefty Grove (23), Tom Seaver (24), Christy Mathewson (26), Warren Spahn (33), Kid Nichols (38), Bob Feller (40), Bob Gibson (42), Joe Williams (43), Steve Carlton (47), Sandy Koufax (48), Nolan Ryan (59), Carl Hubbell (63), Bullet Rogan (72), Gaylord Perry (76), Juan Marichal (79), John Clarkson (81), Martin Dihigo (82), Robin Roberts (83), Phil Niekro (86), Eddie Plank (87), Whitey Ford (89), Tim Keefe (90), Mordecai Brown (91), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Jim Palmer (97), Hoyt Wilhelm (104), Ed Walsh (105), Bert Blyleven (106), Charles Radbourn (117), Dennis Eckersley (126), Amos Rusie (129), Don Drysdale (132), Dizzy Dean (133), Rube Waddell (135), Hal Newhouser (137), Rich Gossage (142), Dazzy Vance (143), Pud Galvin (146), Early Wynn (150), Stan Coveleski (151), Don Sutton (153), Ted Lyons (154), Joe McGinnity (164), Jim Bunning (167), Ray Brown (168), Red Ruffing (169), Bob Lemon (176), Mickey Welch (180), Red Faber (181), Addie Joss (182), Bill Foster (184), Hilton Smith (189), Jose Mendez (193), Left Gomez (194), Vic Willis (196), Rollie Fingers (198), Eppa Rixey (199), Leon Day (204), Chief Bender (205), Bruce Sutter (210), Catfish Hunter (213), Burleigh Grimes (214), Waite Hoyt (217), Herb Pennock (221), Jack Chesbro (222)

Ranking by Primary Decade
1880s (12): Cap Anson (25), Dan Brouthers (46), Roger Connor (58), King Kelly (69), John Ward (70), Buck Ewing (74), John Clarkson (81), Tim Keefe (90), Jim O'Rourke (113), Charles Radbourn (117), Pud Galvin (146), Mickey Welch (180)

1890s (15): Cy Young (9), Kid Nichols (38), Ed Delahanty (49), George Davis (68), Billy Hamilton (75), Jesse Burkett (100), Willie Keeler (123), Amos Rusie (129), Sam Thompson (145), Joe Kelley (165), Bid McPhee (171), Hugh Jennings (173), Hugh Duffy (177), Jake Beckley (178), Frank Grant (186)

1900s (20): Honus Wagner (6), Christy Mathewson (26), Nap Lajoie (29), Sam Crawford (66), Eddie Plank (87), Mordecai Brown (91), Fred Clarke (102), Rube Waddell (135), Frank Chance (155), Jimmy Collins (157), Elmer Flick (163), Joe McGinnity (164), Roger Bresnahan (166), Bobby Wallace (170), Addie Joss (182), Vic Willis (196), Johnny Evers (201), Chief Bender (205), Joe Tinker (209), Jack Chesbro (222)

1910s (15): Ty Cobb (3), Walter Johnson (7), Tris Speaker (14), Eddie Collins (16), Grover Alexander (18), Pop Lloyd (37), Joe Williams (43), Frank Baker (96), Ed Walsh (105), Zack Wheat (127), Louis Santop (149), Max Carey (156), Pete Hill (179), Jose Mendez (193), Harry Hooper (216), Ben Taylor (218)

1920s (30): Babe Ruth (1), Rogers Hornsby (12), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Bullet Rogan (72), Frankie Frisch (85), Harry Heilmann (101), George Sisler (110), Cristobal Torriente (125), Goose Goslin (130), Dazzy Vance (143), Biz Mackey (148), Stan Coveleski (151), Edd Roush (152), Pie Traynor (162), Red Faber (181), Sam Rice (185), Joe Sewell (188), Eppa Rixey (199), Hack Wilson (200), Rabbit Maranville (206), Dave Bancroft (208), Heinie Manush (211), Burleigh Grimes (214), Earle Combs (215), Waite Hoyt (217), Jim Bottomley (219), Herb Pennock (221), Ross Youngs (223), Travis Jackson (225)

1930s (36): Lou Gehrig (8), Josh Gibson (15), Satchel Paige (17), Lefty Grove (23), Jimmie Foxx (28), Mel Ott (32), Hank Greenberg (45), Charlie Gehringer (54), Mickey Cochrane (55), Arky Vaughan (57), Carl Hubbell (63), Paul Waner (78), Al Simmons (80), Martin Dihigo (82), Joe Cronin (98), Bill Dickey (99), Gabby Hartnett (108), Mule Suttles (111), Joe Medwick (112), Jud Wilson (114), Willie Wells (124), Bill Terry (131), Dizzy Dean (133), Cool Papa Bell (136), Billy Herman (147), Ted Lyons (154), Earl Averill (158), Ray Brown (168), Red Ruffing (169), Bill Foster (184), Hilton Smith (189), Chuck Klein (190), Lefty Gomez (194), Kiki Cuyler (197), Tony Lazzeri (202), Ernie Lombardi (203)

1940s (18): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Joe DiMaggio (20), Bob Feller (40), Johnny Mize (50), Luke Appling (92), Buck Leonard (103), Monte Irvin (118), Hal Newhouser (137), Joe Gordon (138), Lou Boudreau (140), Pee Wee Reese (144), Bobby Doerr (161), Willard Brown (174), Enos Slaughter (175), Ray Dandridge (183), Phil Rizzuto (191), Leon Day (204)

1950s (17): Mickey Mantle (11), Jackie Robinson (13), Warren Spahn (33), Yogi Berra (34), Eddie Mathews (39), Roy Campanella (64), Duke Snider (67), Robin Roberts (83), Whitey Ford (89), Larry Doby (128), Ralph Kiner (141), Early Wynn (150), Richie Ashburn (159), Bob Lemon (176), Nellie Fox (187), Red Schoendienst (212), George Kell (220)

1960s (20): Willie Mays (2), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Roberto Clemente (41), Bob Gibson (42), Sandy Koufax (48), Al Kaline (51), Ernie Banks (65), Harmon Killebrew (73), Juan Marichal (79), Willie McCovey (84), Brooks Robinson (93), Hoyt Wilhelm (104), Ron Santo (121), Billy Williams (122), Don Drysdale (132), Jim Bunning (167), Orlando Cepeda (172), Luis Aparicio (192), Bill Mazeroski (224)

1970s (20): Tom Seaver (24), Joe Morgan (30), Johnny Bench (31), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Steve Carlton (47), Reggie Jackson (56), Nolan Ryan (59), Rod Carew (61), Gaylord Perry (76), Carlton Fisk (77), Phil Niekro (86), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Willie Stargell (95), Jim Palmer (97), Bert Blyleven (106), Lou Brock (134), Don Sutton (153), Tony Perez (195), Rollie Fingers (198), Catfish Hunter (213)

1980s (17): Mike Schmidt (22), Rickey Henderson (27), Cal Ripken (35), George Brett (36), Wade Boggs (53), Robin Yount (60), Tony Gwynn (62), Eddie Murray (71), Gary Carter (88), Dave Winfield (109), Ozzie Smith (115), Paul Molitor (116), Ryne Sandberg (119), Dennis Eckersley (126), Rich Gossage (142), Jim Rice (207), Bruce Sutter (210)

1990s (3): Barry Larkin (107), Roberto Alomar (120), Kirby Puckett (139)

Links to Previous Elections
Election 1-5
Election 6-10
Election 11-15
Election 16-20
Election 21- 25
Election 26-30
Election 31-35
Election 36-40 (41)
Election 42-45
Election 46-50
Election 51-55
Election 56-60
Election 61-65
Election 65-70
Election 71-75
Election 75-80 (81)
Election 82-85
Election 86-90
Election 91-95
Election 96-100
Election 101-105 (106)
Election 107-110
Election 111-115
Election 116-120
Election 121-125
Election 126-130 (131)
Election 132-135
Election 136-140
Election 141-145
Election 146-150
Election 151-155 (156)
Election 157-160
Election 161-165
Election 166-170
Election 171-175
Election 176-180
Election 181-185
Election 186-190 (191)
Election 192-195
Election 196-200
Election 201-205
Election 206-210
Election 211-215
Election 216-220
Election 221-225

[PVNICK]

1. Andy Cooper
2. Rube Marquard
3. Ray Schalk
4. Fred Lindstrom
5. Lloyd Waner
6. Haines
7. McCarthy
8. Kelly
9. Hafey
10. Johnson

Ferrell

[Cowtipper]

1) Lloyd Waner
2) Chick Hafey
3) Freddie Lindstrom
4) Judy Johnson
5) Ray Schalk
6) Rick Ferrell
7) Rube Marquard
8) Jesse Haines
9) George Kelly
10) Tommy McCarthy

Cooper

[DoubleX]

It's been a long time coming, but this will be the final election in the project. Please list your top 10 remaining players (there's only 11 left) as you normally would. We'll elect the top 10 instead of 5 this time, and obviously the 11th player by default gets the dubious distinction of being our least worthy Hall of Famer.

After this ends, I may take a week or two, but intend to start from the beginning but this time in considering the worthiness of all players from 1 to 236 (or more, depending on the number elected in January).

1) Rick Ferrell - 10
2) Jesse Haines - 9
3) Ray Schalk - 8
4) Judy Johnson - 7
5) Chick Hafey - 6
6) Freddie Lindstrom - 5
7) Lloyd Waner - 4
8) Andy Cooper - 3
9) Rube Marquard - 2
10) Tommy McCarthy - 1

11) George Kelly

Separating McCarthy from Kelly was probably the hardest division for me in this project. They both should have the ignominious distinction of being last, but only one can truly be last. I originally had McCarthy penciled in as no. 236 as I see Kelly as the better player, but McCarthy, for seems to have a little more historical notoriety, such that the VC felt it was appropriate to elect McCarthy way back in 1946 among several other "old timers." (Interestingly, baseball-reference.com lists Clark Griffith as having been elected as a player by the old timers committee, but the Hall of Fame website lists him as an executive). McCarthy also gets some credit for innovating the hit and run. All told, it was enough notoriety for me to put him, a mediocre LFer slightly ahead of Kelly, a mediocre 1Bman.

[SavoyBG]

1 - Judy Johnson
2 - Rube Marquard
3 - Jesse Haines
4 - Rick Ferrell
5 - Ray Schalk
6 - Andy Cooper
7 - George Kelly
8 - Fred Lindstrom
9 - Chick Hafey
10 - Lloyd Waner

11 - Tommy McCarthy

[jjpm74]

1. Ray Schalk
2. Lloyd Waner
3. Tommy McCarthy
4. Jesse Haines
5. Judy Johnson
6. Rick Ferrell
7. Andy Cooper
8. Fred Lindstrom
9. Rube Marquard
10. Chick Hafey

Next in order:

George Kelly

[J W]

1. Ray Schalk (10)
2. Chick Hafey (9)
3. Andy Cooper (8)
4. Freddie Lindstrom (7)
5. Jessie Haines (6)
6. Judy Johnson (5)
7. Rick Ferrell (4)
8. Lloyd Waner (3)
9. Rube Marquard (2)
10. George Kelly (1)

...and Tommy McCarthy is the guy who misses out on my vote.

[dgarza]

1. Lloyd Waner
2. Andy Cooper
3. Judy Johnson
4. Freddie Lindstrom
5. Rube Marquard
6. Chick Hafey
7. Rick Ferrell
8. Ray Schalk
9. Jesse Haines
10. George Kelly

11. Tommy McCarthy

[TheMendozaLine]

1. Ray Schalk
2. Andy Cooper
3. Chick Hafey
4. Judy Johnson
5. Freddie Lindstrom
6. Lloyd Waner
7. Rube Marquard
8. Rick Ferrell
9. Jessie Haines
10. Tommy McCarthy

George Kelly doesn't make the cut.

[jalbright]

Scrape, scrape, scrape

1. Andy Cooper
2. Chick Hafey
3. Fred Lindstrom
4. Tommy McCarthy
5. Judy Johnson
6. George Kelly
7. Rube Marquard
8. Jesse Haines
9. Lloyd Waner
10. Ray Schalk

11. Rick Ferrell

Man, what you find at the bottom of a barrel

[SavoyBG]

Separating McCarthy from Kelly was probably the hardest division for me in this project. They both should have the ignominious distinction of being last, but only one can truly be last. I originally had McCarthy penciled in as no. 236 as I see Kelly as the better player, but McCarthy, for seems to have a little more historical notoriety, such that the VC felt it was appropriate to elect McCarthy way back in 1946 among several other "old timers." (Interestingly, baseball-reference.com lists Clark Griffith as having been elected as a player by the old timers committee, but the Hall of Fame website lists him as an executive). McCarthy also gets some credit for innovating the hit and run. All told, it was enough notoriety for me to put him, a mediocre LFer slightly ahead of Kelly, a mediocre 1Bman.

I don't see it.

We are conducting this project to fix the stupid decisions made by the writers and the veteran's commitees, not to validate their worst choices. Why should we use what the veteran's committee did to decide between these two candidates. That's circular reasoning....."let's put him in because they put him in."

WAR
Kelly - 23.4
McCarthy - 14.1

Kelly was not mediocre. He was a pretty solid player, leading his league once in HRs and twice in RBIs as part of a championship team. Kelly was a star player on the 4 time NL champ (21-24), and two time WS champ (21-22) Giants. George had 100+ RBIs in each of the 4 years that the Giants were NL champs during his career.

Mediocre players do not finish among the top ten in their league in WAR twice, and among the top 6 in their league in the MVP voting twice. He also finished among the top 6 in his league in HRs SEVEN times, and among the top 5 in RBIs FIVE times.

From 1921-1926 over 6 seasons his WAR ws 20.9. That is certainly not mediocre.

If you want mediocre, check out McCarthy. His numer one comp is Duff Cooley. Kelly's number pne comp is Bob Watson.

On Baseball-Reference, the users currently rank Kelly #523 and McCarthy #732 of all time. They don't see the two players as particularly close.

If you can't decide between them, how about letting their respective major league pitching records decide it for you?

Kelly in one game was 1-0 with a 0.00 ERA in 5 innings. McCarthy in 13 games was 0-8 with a 4.99 ERA in 70.1 innings.

PS - Check out how bad Hafey was in the 4 world series he played in. An OPS of .506 and just 2 RBIs in 92 plate appearances.

[SavoyBG]

Kelly was known as an excellent defensive first baseman. His positioning and footwork on hits to the outfield became the standard method for teaching future first basemen to handle relays. Frisch considered Kelly the finest first baseman he had seen

Kelly also had a reputation as a clutch hitter. McGraw said there was no player he preferred to have bat in a big situation. Waite Hoyt considered him dangerous in clutch situations.

[DoubleX]

I don't see it.

We are conducting this project to fix the stupid decisions made by the writers and the veteran's commitees, not to validate their worst choices. Why should we use what the veteran's committee did to decide between these two candidates. That's circular reasoning....."let's put him in because they put him in."

WAR
Kelly - 23.4
McCarthy - 14.1

Kelly was not mediocre. He was a pretty solid player, leading his league once in HRs and twice in RBIs as part of a championship team. Kelly was a star player on the 4 time NL champ (21-24), and two time WS champ (21-22) Giants. George had 100+ RBIs in each of the 4 years that the Giants were NL champs during his career.

Mediocre players do not finish among the top ten in their league in WAR twice, and among the top 6 in their league in the MVP voting twice. He also finished among the top 6 in his league in HRs SEVEN times, and among the top 5 in RBIs FIVE times.

From 1921-1926 over 6 seasons his WAR ws 20.9. That is certainly not mediocre.

If you want mediocre, check out McCarthy. His numer one comp is Duff Cooley. Kelly's number pne comp is Bob Watson.

On Baseball-Reference, the users currently rank Kelly #523 and McCarthy #732 of all time. They don't see the two players as particularly close.

If you can't decide between them, how about letting their respective major league pitching records decide it for you?

Kelly in one game was 1-0 with a 0.00 ERA in 5 innings. McCarthy in 13 games was 0-8 with a 4.99 ERA in 70.1 innings.

PS - Check out how bad Hafey was in the 4 world series he played in. An OPS of .506 and just 2 RBIs in 92 plate appearances.

Is it really worth getting this worked up over when I'm deciding between 235 and 236? Others have a greater gulf between the two players, with two voters having McCarthy in their top 4 remaining and three voters having Kelly dead last.

I also don't find WAR particularly helpful when comparing players from McCarthy's era to pretty much any subsequent era given the shortened seasons, shortened careers, and rapidly changing game generally.

In any event, I already said I see Kelly as the better player, but so what? He's a terrible selection in his own right and by Hall of Fame standards he is extremely mediocre, and I stand very much by that word choice.

Kelly is in the Hall of Fame solely for one reason, Frankie Frisch wanted him to be in the Hall. McCarthy on the other hand was put in very early on in the Hall's existence, during a time when the old timer's committee was endeavoring to include the best players of that era. Obviously, the old timers committee made a huge mistake, but his election can't be attributed to a matter of simple nepotism. In fact, his early election probably had more to do with reputation and being perceived as something of an innovator on the field. That should fit in nicely with a point you've echoed many times when you've found something disagreeable - this is the Hall of Fame, and I take McCarthy's early election as a sign of something subjectively in his favor.

But again, I go back to the point of is it really a big deal at this juncture? You're really reading too much into the fact that I have McCarthy an iota ahead of Kelly simply because I had to pick one of them to be last here. In the big picture, they're both terrible selections and it's too bad I couldn't select them both as last.

EDIT: Just re-reading your post, your statement that "We are conducting this project to fix the stupid decisions made by the writers and the veteran's commitees, not to validate their worst choices" is misplaced. We're not fixing anything here. We're not voting anyone in or out of the Hall of Fame. We are in fact validating/invalidating their choices through our rankings. The fact that you have both Kelly and McCarthy in your bottom three, that you waited until the very end to vote for them, is your validation that those two players were two of the very worst players elected to the Hall.

I'd also point to your ballot as a example of what's the big deal in the grand scheme of things? You have Kelly and McCarthy at 234 and 236, respectively, I have them at 235 and 236, respectively. In the end, do we really see them as that different? In actuality, our ballots validate that we both see them as terrible selections (unless you believe the Hall should have more than 236 members, but I don't believe that's your view).

[SavoyBG]

Is it really worth getting this worked up over when I'm deciding between 235 and 236?

As I said earlier in the project, this part of the list needed to be voted on one at a time with a lot of discussion. People have ranked the top players ad infinitum over the years. It's much more interesting to me to rank the bottom players here correctly.

Others have a greater gulf between the two players, with two voters having McCarthy in their top 4 remaining and three voters having Kelly dead last.

Obviously this is directed at them as well as at you. There is still time to change some minds before the votes are tabulated. Kelly is seen as last by some people merely because he's the poster boy for bad elections. A well known "Friend Of Frankie Frisch," while McCarthy is virtually unknown, even around here. Even YOU listed him at the wrong position in your post. He's a RFer not a LFer. I'd bet that most voters here could not name the teams McCarthy played for without looking it up.

I also don't find WAR particularly helpful when comparing players from McCarthy's era to pretty much any subsequent era given the shortened seasons, shortened careers, and rapidly changing game generally.

Okay, well how about Bill James ranking Kelly as the #65 first baseman of all time and McCarthy the #88 RFer of all time in his "New Historical Abstract?" BJ has studied this a lot more than anybody around here, and he has named McCarthy as the worst hall of famer.

In any event, I already said I see Kelly as the better player, but so what? He's a terrible selection in his own right and by Hall of Fame standards he is extremely mediocre, and I stand very much by that word choice.

Nobody who is among the top 100 players of all time at his position can possibly be "mediocre." Don't be a snob here. All of these guys were great, just in different degrees.

Kelly is in the Hall of Fame solely for one reason, Frankie Frisch wanted him to be in the Hall. McCarthy on the other hand was put in very early on in the Hall's existence, during a time when the old timer's committee was endeavoring to include the best players of that era. Obviously, the old timers committee made a huge mistake, but his election can't be attributed to a matter of simple nepotism. In fact, his early election probably had more to do with reputation and being perceived as something of an innovator on the field. That should fit in nicely with a point you've echoed many times when you've found something disagreeable - this is the Hall of Fame, and I take McCarthy's early election as a sign of something subjectively in his favor.

I think we now know enough about these players to discount that.

But again, I go back to the point of is it really a big deal at this juncture? You're really reading too much into the fact that I have McCarthy an iota ahead of Kelly simply because I had to pick one of them to be last here. In the big picture, they're both terrible selections and it's too bad I couldn't select them both as last.

Oh, I think who is last is THE MOST important ranking of the project.

EDIT: Just re-reading your post, your statement that "We are conducting this project to fix the stupid decisions made by the writers and the veteran's commitees, not to validate their worst choices" is misplaced. We're not fixing anything here. We're not voting anyone in or out of the Hall of Fame. We are in fact validating/invalidating their choices through our rankings. The fact that you have both Kelly and McCarthy in your bottom three, that you waited until the very end to vote for them, is your validation that those two players were two of the very worst players elected to the Hall.

Yes.

I'd also point to your ballot as a example of what's the big deal in the grand scheme of things? You have Kelly and McCarthy at 234 and 236, respectively, I have them at 235 and 236, respectively. In the end, do we really see them as that different? In actuality, our ballots validate that we both see them as terrible selections (unless you believe the Hall should have more than 236 members, but I don't believe that's your view).

As I've said, I think the disgrace of finishing dead last is the most important ranking we are making here. Let's take some time to get it right, instead of just voting for ten of the final eleven. I think the project would be better served to keep with the system that was used all along. We should only add 5 players to the rankings this time, and THEN rank the final six guys, with some discussion invoilved.

You decided to make this the last election because you did not think that the rankings would change at all, but why not give it the extra week to find out? If you're right, nothing changes. But we may just get some in depth analysis of some players that have not ever been very well discussed around here. Obvioulsy none of these bottom guys made any of the on line HOF projects.

I'm gonna review the last eleven closely and see if I want to change anything.

[SavoyBG]

Reviewing the last 11 players.

CAREER WIN SHARES
Lloyd Waner - 245
Rube Marquard - 208
Jesse Haines - 207
Rick Ferrell - 206
Fred Lindstrom - 193
George Kelly - 193
Ray Schalk - 191
Chick Hafey - 186
Tommy McCarthy - 170
Andy Cooper - NA
Judy Johnson - NA

TOP 3 WS YEARS
Fred Lindstrom - 31, 28, 23
Lloyd Waner - 27, 26, 25
Rube Marquard - 26, 26, 26
Chick Hafey - 25, 25, 23
George Kelly - 26, 24, 22
Tommy McCarthy - 24, 24, 22
Jesse Haines - 28, 20, 19
Ray Schalk - 22, 21, 20
Rick Ferrell - 18, 17, 17
Andy Cooper - NA
Judy Johnson - NA

WS per 162
Chick Hafey - 23.48
Fred Lindstrom - 21.63
Tommy McCarthy - 21.60
Lloyd Waner - 19.91
George Kelly - 19.28
Rick Ferrell - 17.71
Ray Schalk - 17.58
Rube Marquard - NA
Jesse Haines - NA
Andy Cooper - NA
Judy Johnson - NA

CAREER WAR
Jesse Haines - 33.7
Rube Marquard - 31.5
Chick Hafey - 28.4
Fred Lindstrom - 26.8
Rick Ferrell 26.3
Ray Schalk - 25.0
George Kelly - 23.4
Lloyd Waner - 22.0
Tommy McCarthy - 14.1
Andy Cooper - NA
Judy Johnson - NA


Lloyd Waner - Led NL once each in runs, hits, and triples. All star once. Twice was top ten in MVP voting. Closest comp Richie Ashburn.

Rube Marquard - Led NL once each in Wins, Win% and strikeouts. Twice was top ten in MVP voting. Four times was top 6 in WAR for pitchers. Three times was top ten for ov erall WAR. Closest comp is Larry French.

Jesse Haines - Led NL once each in games and shutouts. 3-1 in the WS with a 1.67 ERA. Also batted .444 in the WS with a HR. 8th in MVP voting in 1927. Three times top ten in WAR for pitchers. Closest comp is Freddie Fitzsimmons.

Rick Ferrell - 7 time all star. Career .378 OBP - Closest comp is Deacon McGuire.

Fred Lindstrom - Led NL in hits and second in MVP voting in 1928. Also top ten in MVP voting in 1926. Top 5 twice in overall WAR. Closest comp is Baby Doll Jacobsen. Closest comp at 3B is Home Run Baker, Played 551 games in the OF and 809 games at 3B.

George Kelly - Led NL in HRs once and RBIs twice - Twice was top 6 in MVP voting - Twice top ten in WAR for position players - Was top 4 in the NL in RBIs in five consecutive seasons. Was top 6 in the NL in HRs in 7 consecutive seasons. Clsoest comp is Bob Watson.

Ray Schalk - Top three in games caught for 10 straight years, leading 7 times. Twice was top 6 in MVP voting - Closest comp - Luke Sewell

Chick Hafey - Led NL once each in batting and SLG% - all star once, top 5 in MVP voting once. Top ten in WAR for position players once - closest comp is Ken Williams.

Tommy McCarthy - Led AA in SB once - Finished 6th once in WAR for position players - closest comp is Duff Cooley

--------------------------------------------------------

Andy Cooper - Here's the stats they have on him: http://www.baseball-reference.com/nl...d=cooper002and
104-52 that they know of.

Andrew Lewis Cooper (April 24, 1898 – June 3, 1941), nicknamed "Lefty," was an American left-handed pitcher, who hit right-handed, in baseball's Negro Leagues. He was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 2006.
Cooper, who was born in Waco, Texas, played nine seasons for the Detroit Stars and ten seasons for the Kansas City Monarchs. He also managed the Monarchs from 1937 to 1940, winning the pennant three times. He holds the Negro League career record for saves (29).

The Texan was 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) tall and weighed 220 lbs.

Career
Cooper pitched for the Detroit Stars in 1920-27 before he was traded to the Kansas City Monarchs for five players in 1928. He posted a 116–57 record, good for a .671 winning percentage and went 72–30 over a six-year span. One of his best years was 1936, when he went 27–8 against all levels of competition. He often pitched three games in a five-game series, starting two and relieving another. Cooper's equivalent record per season is 16–8.

"Lefty" studied the hitters carefully and threw a variety of pitches at varying speeds. He sharpened sinkers, sliders, and screwballs. He had excellent control and could hit the corners of the plate.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Judy Johnson - http://www.baseball-reference.com/nl...d=johnso001jud
Career .293 hitter that they know of.


In 1930 Johnson was a player-coach for the Homestead Grays, and in that capacity he discovered Josh Gibson. From 1935 through his last season in 1938, Johnson was the captain of the Pittsburgh Crawfords, one of the greatest franchises of all time. Although the Crawfords also included fellow Hall of Famers Gibson, Oscar Charleston and Cool Papa Bell, Johnson was the glue that held the team together. His vital role on the team was most apparent in the 1935 Negro League World Series, when he hit a clutch single to win the sixth game with the Crawfords down 3 games to 2 against the New York Cubans. The Crawfords won the series in seven games.

Johnson was a precise contact hitter who batted an average of .416 in 1929, but his greatest ability was his fielding. Along with Ray Dandridge and Ghost Marcelle, Johnson was one of the greatest fielding third basemen in the Negro leagues. He was also one of the smartest men in baseball, able to compensate for any physical shortcomings with an unsurpassed ability to think faster than his opponents, particularly in pressure situations.

Major League career
Although Johnson retired nine years before the integration of the major leagues, he was eventually able to apply his baseball knowledge in the majors, becoming the first African American to coach in Major League Baseball (1954). He also was one of the most accomplished talent scouts in baseball, responsible for signing Bill Bruton and Dick Allen.

Halls of fame
Johnson retired in 1973 and was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1975, the sixth Negro leaguer so honored. Like Pop Lloyd before him, he was known for his exemplary character off the field. In 1976, he was the first athlete ever inducted into the Delaware Sports Museum and Hall of Fame. The home field of the Carolina League Wilmington Blue Rocks minor league baseball team is named in his honor. In 1994, Johnson was posthumously elected to the inaugural class of the Delaware High School Baseball Coaches Hall-of-Fame.

[J W]

I like this part (from around player #180 on) more too, but for a different reason: I like validating these guys as good players and giving them a bit of a bone. None of these guys were scrubs but it sounds like it sometimes as I've read about it. Sifting out the merits of the worst HoF selections intrigues me.

[J W]

Okay, well how about Bill James ranking Kelly as the #65 first baseman of all time and McCarthy the #88 RFer of all time in his "New Historical Abstract?" BJ has studied this a lot more than anybody around here, and he has named McCarthy as the worst hall of famer.

I will reply to this with a different quote:

Asked to name the worst player in the Hall of Fame, I will often cite George Kelly, and point out that Kelly was selected primarily because the Veterans Committee in the 1970s was strongly biased in his favor.

That said, I disagree with Mr. James, and he does rank McCarthy lower by position.

[SavoyBG]

I will reply to this with a different quote:



That said, I disagree with Mr. James, and he does rank McCarthy lower by position.

In his most recent statements, he named McCarthy as the worst HOFer.

[SavoyBG]

I think that Judy Johnson being the first black coach in the major leagues is quite significant.


I'm gonna rearrange my ballot some based on my recent research on the last 11 players.

Here's what I ended up with:

1 - Judy Johnson
2 - Rube Marquard
3 - Jesse Haines
4 - Rick Ferrell
5 - Ray Schalk
6 - Andy Cooper
7 - George Kelly
8 - Fred Lindstrom
9 - Chick Hafey
10 - Lloyd Waner
11 - Tommy McCarthy

I think that George Kelly was sort of the Pie Traynor of 1B. Considered a great glove and a great clutch hitter just like Traynor, each were big RBI guys in the middle of great lineups. Kelly had the better career OPS+ (110 to 107) but Traynor did it for longer. Traynor was a high average hitter who didn't walk and had a lot of triples. Kelly was a power hitter for his day, with a career ISO number of .157.

Traynor of course has a much better rep with SIX top ten MVP finishes, but he was only top ten in WAR for position players one time. Both were more important parts of their teams than the metrics indicate.

[SavoyBG]

TOTALS SO FAR

Schalk - 71
Johnson - 66 (9 ballots)
Cooper - 66 (8 ballots)
Lindstrom - 63
Hafey - 60
Waner - 59
Haines - 54
Marquard - 51
Ferrell - 45
McCarthy - 28
Kelly - 22

Looks like it's pretty much settled who the bottom two are. Kelly will be last unless there is a change in one or more ballots.

[SavoyBG]

By the way, the Hit and Run has proven to be a losing strategy. Rewarding McCarthy for supposedly inventing it would be like rewarding overly aggressive baserunners who steal 32 bases but get caught 26 times.

[jjpm74]

By the way, the Hit and Run has proven to be a losing strategy. Rewarding McCarthy for supposedly inventing it would be like rewarding overly aggressive baserunners who steal 32 bases but get caught 26 times.

Remember, we are talking about an era of baseball where the home run was non existent and how one handled themselves on the bases was important.

[SavoyBG]

Remember, we are talking about an era of baseball where the home run was non existent and how one handled themselves on the bases was important.

We're talking also about a very high scoring era where few double plays were turned. The hit and run would not prevent many double plays because there were few GIDPs to begin with.

Why start a runner and force a batter to hit a groundball that usually became an out, or have the batter miss the pitch and the runner thrown out a large percentage of the time.

Why start a runner and force a batter to swing at a pitch that was out of the strike zone.

[DoubleX]

As I said earlier in the project, this part of the list needed to be voted on one at a time with a lot of discussion. People have ranked the top players ad infinitum over the years. It's much more interesting to me to rank the bottom players here correctly.

Eh, I suppose it's more interesting now than say 30 spots ago, but at this point we're focusing exclusively on players that I feel to be terrible selections to the Hall anyway, so rating the degree of terribleness is not that thrilling for me. And again, you're expending a lot of energy here on players that we both agree are in the bottom three. This really is the epitome of nitpicking.

Obviously this is directed at them as well as at you. There is still time to change some minds before the votes are tabulated. Kelly is seen as last by some people merely because he's the poster boy for bad elections. A well known "Friend Of Frankie Frisch," while McCarthy is virtually unknown, even around here. Even YOU listed him at the wrong position in your post. He's a RFer not a LFer. I'd bet that most voters here could not name the teams McCarthy played for without looking it up.

And you are free to try to change minds and I applaud you for trying. I will note though that I realized just after I posted that I inadvertently listed McCarthy in the wrong position but couldn't be bothered to change it. That being said, he played 600 games in RF and 500 in LF, so again, it's really nitpicking.

Okay, well how about Bill James ranking Kelly as the #65 first baseman of all time and McCarthy the #88 RFer of all time in his "New Historical Abstract?" BJ has studied this a lot more than anybody around here, and he has named McCarthy as the worst hall of famer.

As noted below, even Bill James can change his mind. I certainly respect his baseball knowledge as higher than my own, but he's not the be all and end all, and his rankings are typically very statistically skewed, which may not always be the best approach in a HoF worthiness discussion.

Nobody who is among the top 100 players of all time at his position can possibly be "mediocre." Don't be a snob here. All of these guys were great, just in different degrees.

You're still failing to put my statement in context. In the grand scheme of baseball, yes, both players were very good players, but by Hall of Fame standards, which is the context of this whole discussion, both are very mediocre.

I think we now know enough about these players to discount that.

Oh, I think who is last is THE MOST important ranking of the project.

This really gets me. You seem to pick and choose what subjective factors you'll value based on your own preconceptions. You'll chastise people for ignoring what you view are important subjective factors, and then you'll chastise people for putting too much weight in subjective factors you feel are unimportant.

In this conversation, my personal belief is the fact that McCarthy was elected very early on in the Hall's history, rightly or wrongly, is a subjective factor in his favor. Something stood out about him then to convince voters to vote for him. On the other side, we have George Kelly, a player who was elected for one reason, nepotism, and he stands as perhaps the worst example of nepotism in the election process. That's a huge black mark in my book. When I look at the Hall of Fame, I'm dismayed when I see the clearly undeserving players that Frisch ushered in - they cheapen the Hall in my book; and Kelly being the worst player of the Frisch bunch makes him a fitting final selection, a poignant reminder of how Frisch corrupted the Hall of Fame.

But again, you're causing me to extrapolate on nitpicking here. In actuality, McCarthy and Kelly are both extremely terrible selections, but for the reasons above, I put Kelly a tick behind simply because I had to pick one of the two to be last.

And this may come as a shock to you, but I actually decided to put McCarthy before Kelly only after researching the two and considering my ballot for days before posting. SO PLEASE don't presume that others here aren't putting thought into this.

As I've said, I think the disgrace of finishing dead last is the most important ranking we are making here. Let's take some time to get it right, instead of just voting for ten of the final eleven. I think the project would be better served to keep with the system that was used all along. We should only add 5 players to the rankings this time, and THEN rank the final six guys, with some discussion invoilved.

You decided to make this the last election because you did not think that the rankings would change at all, but why not give it the extra week to find out? If you're right, nothing changes. But we may just get some in depth analysis of some players that have not ever been very well discussed around here. Obvioulsy none of these bottom guys made any of the on line HOF projects.

I opened up the floor for discussion on this in the previous election, I don't think you chimed in, so we're going with this as the final election.

If people would prefer, I could keep this election open for a few extra days to facilitate conversation, but if this election proceeds as the last several elections have, I expect this thread will go quiet in a day or two until.

[SavoyBG]

Eh, I In this conversation, my personal belief is the fact that McCarthy was elected very early on in the Hall's history, rightly or wrongly, is a subjective factor in his favor. Something stood out about him then to convince voters to vote for him.

He was elected in 1946, 50 years after his last season. It's doubtful that many of the voters had seen him play in his prime in the late 1880s and early 1890s. The voters would have had to have been at least 75 years old to have been adults when McCarthy was in his prime. I don't think it means much if some 7 year old kid sees someone play. Clearly someone there was pushing for McCarthy and was able to convince enough of the other voters. Could easily have been nepotism too....some friend of McCarthy's maybe, although nepotism is not the right word here, as in order for it to be "nepotism" Frisch would had to have been a relative of Kelly. I just looked the word up. It means favortism given to a relative.

On the other side, we have George Kelly, a player who was elected for one reason, nepotism, and he stands as perhaps the worst example of nepotism in the election process. That's a huge black mark in my book. When I look at the Hall of Fame, I'm dismayed when I see the clearly undeserving players that Frisch ushered in - they cheapen the Hall in my book; and Kelly being the worst player of the Frisch bunch makes him a fitting final selection, a poignant reminder of how Frisch corrupted the Hall of Fame.

That's debatable. based on career win shares Hafey is the worst of the Frisch bunch. Based on best three win share seasons, Haines is the worst of the Frisch bunch. Based on MVP voting Kelly was near the top of the Frisch bunch.

But again, you're causing me to extrapolate on nitpicking here. In actuality, McCarthy and Kelly are both extremely terrible selections, but for the reasons above, I put Kelly a tick behind simply because I had to pick one of the two to be last.

And I think that you simply chose the wrong one. Don't punish kelly because Frisch was a jerk. High Pockets was an integral part of the only National League team ever to win FOUR STRAIGHT PENNANTS. Here are the top WS players on each of those 4 teams.

1921 - Bancroft, Frisch, Kelly (24), Youngs
1922 - Bancroft, Meusel, Youngs, Nehf, Kelly (20), Frisch (20)
1923 - Frisch, Youngs, Bancfoft (20), Kelly (20), Meusel (20)
1924 - Frisch, Youngs, Kelly (26), Jackson

Here are the four year totals for these players (1921-1924) on the Giants.

Frisch - 112
Youngs - 99
Kelly - 90
Bancroft - 78
Meusel - 69
Nehf - 59

Looks like Kelly was the #3 player on a team that won 4 straight pennants.