Ranking the HoF Players: 226-236 (Final Election)

[SavoyBG]

FAN GRAPHS WAR

Chick Hafey - 35.4
Fred Lindstrom - 34.4
Rick Ferrell - 34.1
George Kelly - 31.9
Ray Schalk - 29.1
Lloyd Waner - 28.2
Tommy McCarthy - 16.7

[SavoyBG]

TPR
Ray Schalk +16.1
Chick Hafey +13.5
Rick Ferrell +11.5
Fred Lindstrom +9.9
Jesse Haines +7.3
George Kelly +3.1
Rube Marquard +0.5
Tommy McCarthy - MINUS 2.8
Lloyd Waner - MINUS 5.6

[Freakshow]

Ah. Well, glad we're all in agreement then

I think it's kind of neat that someone has taken up the mantle of finding out who's truly worst... although didn't the BBF community try to rank the HoF from the bottom up some time ago? Who was "voted out" first?

I ran a comprehensive project to identify the worst 15% among HOF players back in 2005-06. It was called "The Hall of Mistakes". This was followed up by "The Hall of Corrections" project. You can see the results and links to every election in this thread, Hall of Mistakes/Corrections Recap.

We voted these as the first 10 mistakes:

1 Fred Lindstrom
2 George Kelly
3 Tommy McCarthy
4 Rube Marquard
5 Jesse Haines
6 Lloyd Waner
7 Travis Jackson
8 Rick Ferrell
9 Ross Youngs
10 Chief Bender

[SavoyBG]

The results from the last round were very clear in that there was a big separation between the #5 player and the #6 player.

1) Herb Pennock - 80 (71 points, 9 votes; 1 first place)
2) Jack Chesbro - 75 (66 points, 9 votes; 1 first place)
3) Ross Youngs - 71 (63 points, 8 votes; 2 first place)
4) Bill Mazeroski - 68 (60 points, 8 votes; 1 first place)
5) Travis Jackson - 67 (58 points, 9 votes; 3 first place)

6) Ray Schalk - 40 (33 points, 7 votes; 1 first place)
7) Andy Cooper - 33 (28 points, 5 votes)
8) Freddie Lindstrom - 29 (22 points, 7 votes)
9) Judy Johnson - 24 (17 points, 7 votes)
10) Chick Hafey - 24 (19 points, 5 votes)
11) Lloyd Waner - 23 (19 points, 4 votes)
12) Jesse Haines - 19 (15 points, 4 votes)
13) Rube Marquard - 13 (10 points, 3 votes)
14) Tommy McCarthy - 9 (7 points, 2 votes)
15) Rick Ferrell - 8 (6 points, 2 votes)
16) George Kelly - 2 (1 point, 1 vote)

I'm wondering where Mazeroski and Jackson would fall in the metrics as compared to the remaining guys.

TPR
Bill Mazeroski +34.0
Travis Jackson +22.0
Ray Schalk +16.1
Chick Hafey +13.5
Rick Ferrell +11.5
Fred Lindstrom +9.9
Jesse Haines +7.3
George Kelly +3.1
Rube Marquard +0.5
Tommy McCarthy - MINUS 2.8
Lloyd Waner - MINUS 5.6

FAN GRAPHS WAR
Travis Jackson - 49.6
Bill Mazeroski - 39.5
Chick Hafey - 35.4
Fred Lindstrom - 34.4
Rick Ferrell - 34.1
George Kelly - 31.9
Ray Schalk - 29.1
Lloyd Waner - 28.2
Tommy McCarthy - 16.7


Here's where the position players rank on Baseball-Reference:

292 - Travis Jackson
319 - Bill Mazeroski
401 - Lloyd Waner
404 - Fred Lindstrom
451 - Chick Hafey
492 - Rick Ferrell
523 - George Kelly
730 - Tommy McCarthy
747 - Ray Schalk

And the pitchers:

172 - Rube Marquard
198 - Jesse Haines

CAREER WIN SHARES
Lloyd Waner - 245
Bill Mazeroski - 219
Travis Jackson - 211
Rube Marquard - 208
Jesse Haines - 207
Rick Ferrell - 206
Fred Lindstrom - 193
George Kelly - 193
Ray Schalk - 191
Chick Hafey - 186
Tommy McCarthy - 170

TOP 3 WS YEARS
Fred Lindstrom - 31, 28, 23
Lloyd Waner - 27, 26, 25
Rube Marquard - 26, 26, 26
Chick Hafey - 25, 25, 23
George Kelly - 26, 24, 22
Travis Jackson - 24, 24, 22
Tommy McCarthy - 24, 24, 22
Jesse Haines - 28, 20, 19
Bill Mazeroski - 23, 21, 20
Ray Schalk - 22, 21, 20
Rick Ferrell - 18, 17, 17
Andy Cooper - NA
Judy Johnson - NA

WS per 162
Chick Hafey - 23.48
Fred Lindstrom - 21.63
Tommy McCarthy - 21.60
Travis Jackson - 20.64
Lloyd Waner - 19.91
George Kelly - 19.28
Rick Ferrell - 17.71
Ray Schalk - 17.58
Bill Mazeroski - 16.40

CAREER B-R WAR
Travis Jackson - 42.0
Jesse Haines - 33.7
Bill Mazeroski - 32.3
Rube Marquard - 31.5
Chick Hafey - 28.4
Fred Lindstrom - 26.8
Rick Ferrell 26.3
Ray Schalk - 25.0
George Kelly - 23.4
Lloyd Waner - 22.0
Tommy McCarthy - 14.1
Andy Cooper - NA
Judy Johnson - NA

[SavoyBG]

Are we gonna rank the rest of the hall of famers aside from the players?

If no one else is planning to do so, I will run the project.

[J W]

The only members who would have something quantifiable to study would be the managers. My opinion is they should be listed separately if the project is run.

[SavoyBG]

The only members who would have something quantifiable to study would be the managers. My opinion is they should be listed separately if the project is run.

I don't see it that way. We voted on all of the non players in the Progressive project, so I think we can rank them here too. I think we are all capable of deciding if George Wright is more deserving than Pat Gillick, or if Bill Veeck is more deserving than Tom Yawkey, or if Candy Cummings is more deserving than Clark Griffith.

[jjpm74]

I don't see it that way. We voted on all of the non players in the Progressive project, so I think we can rank them here too. I think we are all capable of deciding if George Wright is more deserving than Pat Gillick, or if Bill Veeck is more deserving than Tom Yawkey, or if Candy Cummings is more deserving than Clark Griffith.

How do you compare Al Spalding to Doug Harvey? Who are we considering if you do this? Are Ford Frick winners and Buck O'Neil winners being considered? I don't see a practical way to do this.

[SavoyBG]

How do you compare Al Spalding to Doug Harvey? Who are we considering if you do this? Are Ford Frick winners and Buck O'Neil winners being considered? I don't see a practical way to do this.

No, just the 61 members of the hall of fame who are not in as players.

I think that Al Spalding is far more deserving than Doug Harvey, but I do think that Doug Harvey is more deserving than many of the 61 inductees. I don't expect many here to agree with me on that. I've seen some people here who say that umpires should not even be in the hall of fame.

I'd say that Spalding will be top 5 on my initial ballot. Not only was he an important executive and pioneer, but he was also a great player in his own right.

[SavoyBG]

I think you can safely close this election, XX.

[DoubleX]

This election is over, and with that the project is over. I want to thank everyone for participating. I hope it was fun and a little different. As I previously mentioned, in a few weeks I'll probably start a very similar project but that ranks the Hall of Fame worthiness of all eligible players (including players eligible for next January's election).

Here's the results for this election, followed by the entire rankings:

1) Ray Schalk - 71 (62 points, 9 votes; 3 first place)
2) Judy Johnson - 66 (57 points, 9 votes; 1 first place)
3) Andy Cooper - 66 (58 points, 8 votes; 2 first place)
4) Freddie Lindstrom - 63 (54 points, 9 votes)
5) Chick Hafey - 60 (51 points, 9 votes)
6) Lloyd Waner - 59 (50 points, 9 votes; 2 first place)
7) Jesse Haines - 54 (45 points, 9 votes)
8) Rube Marquard - 51 (42 points, 9 votes)
9) Rick Ferrell - 45 (38 points, 7 votes; 1 first place)
10) Tommy McCarthy - 28 (22 points, 6 votes)

11) George Kelly - 22 (16 points, 6 votes)



Overall Rankings
1) Babe Ruth
2) Willie Mays
3) Ty Cobb
4) Ted Williams
5) Hank Aaron
6) Honus Wagner
7) Walter Johnson
8) Lou Gehrig
9) Cy Young
10) Stan Musial
11) Mickey Mantle
12) Rogers Hornsby
13) Jackie Robinson
14) Tris Speaker
15) Josh Gibson
16) Eddie Collins
17) Satchel Paige
18) Grover Alexander
19) Frank Robinson
20) Joe DiMaggio
21) Oscar Charleston
22) Mike Schmidt
23) Lefty Grove
24) Tom Seaver
25) Cap Anson
26) Christy Mathewson
27) Rickey Henderson
28) Jimmie Foxx
29) Nap Lajoie
30) Joe Morgan
31) Johnny Bench
32) Mel Ott
33) Warren Spahn
34) Yogi Berra
35) Cal Ripken
36) George Brett
37) Pop Lloyd
38) Kid Nichols
39) Eddie Mathews
40) Bob Feller
41) Roberto Clemente
42) Bob Gibson
43) Joe Williams
44) Carl Yastrzemski
45) Hank Greenberg
46) Dan Brouthers
47) Steve Carlton
48) Sandy Koufax
49) Ed Delahanty
50) Johnny Mize
51) Al Kaline
52) Turkey Stearnes
53) Wade Boggs
54) Charlie Gehringer
55) Mickey Cochrane
56) Reggie Jackson
57) Arky Vaughan
58) Roger Connor
59) Nolan Ryan
---Top 25% Cutoff---
60) Robin Yount
61) Rod Carew
62) Tony Gwynn
63) Carl Hubbell
64) Roy Campanella
65) Ernie Banks
66) Sam Crawford
67) Duke Snider
68) George Davis
69) King Kelly
70) John Ward
71) Eddie Murray
72) Bullet Rogan
73) Harmon Killebrew
74) Buck Ewing
75) Billy Hamilton
76) Gaylord Perry
77) Carlton Fisk
78) Paul Waner
79) Juan Marichal
80) Al Simmons
81) John Clarkson
82) Martin Dihigo
83) Robin Roberts
84) Willie McCovey
85) Frankie Frisch
86) Phil Niekro
87) Eddie Plank
88) Gary Carter
89) Whitey Ford
90) Tim Keefe
91) Mordecai Brown
92) Luke Appling
93) Brooks Robinson
94) Ferguson Jenkins
95) Willie Stargell
96) Frank Baker
97) Jim Palmer
98) Joe Cronin
99) Bill Dickey
100) Jesse Burkett
101) Harry Heilmann
102) Fred Clarke
103) Buck Leonard
104) Hoyt Wilhelm
105) Ed Walsh
106) Bert Blyleven
107) Barry Larkin
108) Gabby Hartnett
109) Dave Winfield
110) George Sisler
111) Mule Suttles
112) Joe Medwick
113) Jim O'Rourke
114) Jud Wilson
115) Ozzie Smith
116) Paul Molitor
117) Charles Radbourn
118) Monte Irvin
---Top 50% Cutoff---
119) Ryne Sandberg
120) Roberto Alomar
121) Ron Santo
122) Billy Williams
123) Willie Keeler
124) Willie Wells
125) Cristobal Torriente
126) Dennis Eckersley
127) Zack Wheat
128) Larry Doby
129) Amos Rusie
130) Goose Goslin
131) Bill Terry
132) Don Drysdale
133) Dizzy Dean
134) Lou Brock
135) Rube Waddell
136) Cool Papa Bell
137) Hal Newhouser
138) Joe Gordon
139) Kirby Puckett
140) Lou Boudreau
141) Ralph Kiner
142) Rich Gossage
143) Dazzy Vance
144) Pee Wee Reese
145) Sam Thompson
146) Pud Galvin
147) Billy Herman
148) Biz Mackey
149) Louis Santop
150) Early Wynn
151) Stan Coveleski
152) Edd Roush
153) Don Sutton
154) Ted Lyons
155) Frank Chance
156) Max Carey
157) Jimmy Collins
158) Earl Averill
159) Richie Ashburn
160) Andre Dawson
161) Bobby Doerr
162) Pie Traynor
163) Elmer Flick
164) Joe McGinnity
165) Joe Kelley
166) Roger Bresnahan
167) Jim Bunning
168) Ray Brown
169) Red Ruffing
170) Bid McPhee
171) Bobby Wallace
172) Orlando Cepeda
173) Hugh Jennings
174) Willard Brown
175) Enos Slaughter
176) Bob Lemon
177) Hugh Duffy
---Top 75% Cutoff---
178) Jake Beckley
179) Pete Hill
180) Mickey Welch
181) Red Faber
182) Addie Joss
183) Ray Dandridge
184) Bill Foster
185) Sam Rice
186) Frank Grant
187) Nellie Fox
188) Joe Sewell
189) Hilton Smith
190) Chuck Klein
191) Phil Rizzuto
192) Luis Aparicio
193) Jose Mendez
194) Lefty Gomez
195) Tony Perez
196) Vic Willis
197) Kiki Cuyler
198) Rollie Fingers
199) Eppa Rixey
200) Hack Wilson
201) Johnny Evers
202) Tony Lazzeri
203) Ernie Lombardi
204) Leon Day
205) Chief Bender
206) Rabbit Maranville
207) Jim Rice
208) Dave Bancroft
209) Joe Tinker
210) Bruce Sutter
211) Heinie Manush
212) Red Schoendienst
213) Catfish Hunter
214) Burleigh Grimes
215) Earle Combs
216) Harry Hooper
217) Waite Hoyt
218) Ben Taylor
219) Jim Bottomley
220) George Kell
221) Herb Pennock
222) Jack Chesbro
223) Ross Youngs
224) Bill Mazeroski
225) Travis Jackson
226) Ray Schalk
227) Judy Johnson
228) Andy Cooper
229) Freddie Lindstrom
230) Chick Hafey
231) Lloyd Waner
232) Jesse Haines
233) Rube Marquard
234) Rick Ferrell
235) Tommy McCarthy
236) George Kelly

[dgarza]

Are we gonna rank the rest of the hall of famers aside from the players?

If no one else is planning to do so, I will run the project.

I love the concept of your project of ranking the non-players. Although I am not sure I have the time to dedicate to it right now. With players, I already had a ranking to work off of. But with non-players, I don't, so it would take extra time just to get a working ranking going.

But I would be comfortable to doing something like this if I had the time. I don't need to be tied down to numbers in order to "rank" people within a profession, especially since there's not terribly many of them. They's be judgement calls for sure, not an exact ranking, but I'm comfortable with that. I already know that Al Spalding is "more worthy" than Doug Harvey, just like I know that Jimmie Foxx is "more worthy" than Doug Harvey or Jim Bunning.

[SavoyBG]

This election is over, and with that the project is over. I want to thank everyone for participating. I hope it was fun and a little different. As I previously mentioned, in a few weeks I'll probably start a very similar project but that ranks the Hall of Fame worthiness of all eligible players (including players eligible for next January's election).

Great job, man, I loved it.

Here's the results for this election, 11) George Kelly - 22 (16 points, 6 votes)

Sorry, George. I did what I could.

You know, I don't see Frisch as a jerk at all. I wish I had more friends like him. Unfortunately many others here saw his support of his friends as really terrible, and they punished George Kelly for it. I just don't see any credible evidence that shows McCarthy is a more deserving HOFer than Kelly. Here are the four voters who evaluated the facts about each player and got it right:

Good job guys !!!


COWTIPPER
9) George Kelly
10) Tommy McCarthy

SAVOYBG
7 - George Kelly
11 - Tommy McCarthy

JW
10. George Kelly (1)
11. Tommy McCarthy

DGARZA
10. George Kelly
11. Tommy McCarthy

[SavoyBG]

I love the concept of your project of ranking the non-players. Although I am not sure I have the time to dedicate to it right now. With players, I already had a ranking to work off of. But with non-players, I don't, so it would take extra time just to get a working ranking going.

But I would be comfortable to doing something like this if I had the time. I don't need to be tied down to numbers in order to "rank" people within a profession, especially since there's not terribly many of them. They's be judgement calls for sure, not an exact ranking, but I'm comfortable with that. I already know that Al Spalding is "more worthy" than Doug Harvey, just like I know that Jimmie Foxx is "more worthy" than Doug Harvey or Jim Bunning.

I'm gonna start it today, so hopefully you can find the time once a week to list your top ten. Shouldn't be that time consuming with only 61 people to choose from.

[Cowtipper]

So...where do we put Deacon White?

[jalbright]

Let's wait until we get the announcement on Jan 9 of the BBWAA vote before dealing with ranking newcomers.