Reggie Jackson on hall of famers

[Ubiquitous]

Rightfully so, as a Braves fan. Phil had much more working against him than almost all the other 300 games winners. Nolan gets most of the attention for winning all those games on generally bad teams, but I would guess the teams behind Niekro were actually worse, overall.

P. 42-48



49 shutout losses, third all time behind only Nolan and Big Train (65).

It wasn't just shutouts that cost him wins it was also not winning games while giving up a bunch of runs. Niekro only won 6 games in which he allowed 5 runs or more (3 games at 5, 2 at 6, and 1 at 7). He also only won 27 games in which he gave up exactly 4 earned runs.

Steve Carlton who was a contemporary of Niekro's won 11 games in which he gave up 5 earned runs or more. Sutton won 9 games including a game in which he gave up 9 runs.

From 1964 to 1987 there have been 244 pitchers that have won 2 games or more while giving up 5 earned runs or more. Niekro's 6 has him tied for 31st. The most amount of games won, and it isn't even close, is 17 wins and two pitchers have that amount. Jack Morris and Fergie Jenkins. The next closest set of pitchers to that mark are the two pitchers with 11. Bob Gibson and Steve Carlton.

Though oddly enough no pitcher has won more games in that time frame as did Phil when giving up exactly 4 earned runs. He had the most at 27 wins followed by Steve Carlton at 26 wins.


I forgot to mention that Niekro is tied with Sutton for the most games started in this time frame in which they gave up 5 runs or more. They both started 122 games in which they would go on to give up 5 runs or more. Of pitchers with 50 or more starts with 5 or more runs given up Phil has the 10th worst winning percentage of the group out of 64 pitchers.

[Ubiquitous]

The Hall of Fame standards are set by the voters as they vote each year. There is no rule in the bylaws that a voter must adhere to the standards of past votes or voters.

[csh19792001]

It wasn't just shutouts that cost him wins it was also not winning games while giving up a bunch of runs.

This is great stuff. Thanks for sharing. What program did you use to sort this, out of curiosity?

Also, how much of this lack of winning- even when giving up 5+ runs- is attributable mainly to Niekro's generally poor run support?

[csh19792001]

1/18/2007

This of courtesy of Dave Kent. I highlighted all of the premier pitchers in history. At least, the ones I spotted.

Amazing Maddux's record, given how low he is on this list.

I think Dave did the single season leaders too, or maybe that was someone else. Maybe someone can dredge up those figures.

Starter                 Starts   Adj RS
---------------------------------------
Allie Reynolds            309     125.8
Don Newcombe              294     122.7
Vic Raschi                255     119.8
Sam Leever                256     118.8
Kirk Rueter               318     118.8
Chief Bender              334     118.7
Art Nehf                  319     118.6
Lefty Gomez               320     117.8
Carl Mays                 325     117.5
Jack Billingham           305     116.9
Whitey Ford               438     116.1
Juan Marichal             457     116.0
Freddie Fitzsimmons       424     115.7
Mordecai Brown            332     115.5
Lew Burdette              373     115.0
Jack Sanford              293     114.8
Bob Walk                  259     114.7
Mike Hampton              309     114.2
Bob Lemon                 350     114.1
Mudcat Grant              293     113.8
Herb Pennock              419     113.2
Red Ruffing               538     113.2
Nelson Briles             279     113.1
Hooks Dauss               388     113.0
Bill Donovan              318     112.9
Lon Warneke               343     112.4
Dwight Gooden             410     112.3
Dave McNally              396     112.2
Andy Pettitte             291     112.2
Catfish Hunter            476     112.0
Eddie Plank               529     111.7
Frank Smith               255     111.7
Mike Caldwell             308     111.6
Aaron Sele                316     111.3
Shane Reynolds            278     111.1
Hal Schumacher            329     111.1
Claude Hendrix            257     110.8
Elden Auker               261     110.6
Christy Mathewson         552     110.2
Ramon Martinez            297     110.0
Shawn Estes               251     109.8
Vern Law                  364     109.6
Deacon Phillippe          251     109.6
Schoolboy Rowe            278     109.5
David Wells               417     109.4
Moose Haas                252     109.3
Dutch Ruether             272     109.2
Bryn Smith                255     109.2
Jack Coombs               269     109.1
Sid Fernandez             300     109.1
Burleigh Grimes           496     109.1
Bill Gullickson           390     109.1
Denny McLain              264     109.1
Jim Palmer                521     109.1
Ron Guidry                323     109.0
Bob Shawkey               333     109.0
Eddie Cicotte             361     108.7
Mike Torrez               458     108.7
Earl Wilson               310     108.7
Joe McGinnity             340     108.6
Harvey Haddix             285     108.5
Ed Reulbach               300     108.5
Warren Spahn              665     108.4
Ralph Terry               257     108.3
Bob Buhl                  369     108.2
Jim Lonborg               368     108.1
Jack Chesbro              315     107.9
Jesse Haines              387     107.9
Ron Darling               364     107.8
Joe Dobson                273     107.7
Ken Holtzman              410     107.7
Bob Feller                484     107.6
Ray Culp                  268     107.5
Scott McGregor            309     107.5
Ed Lopat                  318     107.3
Steve Avery               261     107.1
Dock Ellis                317     107.1
Gary Peters               286     107.1
Bob Forsch                422     107.0
Ross Grimsley             295     107.0
Mike McCormick            333     107.0
Jack Morris               527     107.0
Doc Medich                287     106.9
John Candelaria           356     106.8
Charles Nagy              297     106.7
Todd Stottlemyre          339     106.6
Larry Gura                261     106.5
Mike Cuellar              379     106.4
George Uhle               368     106.4
Bruce Hurst               359     106.3
Guy Bush                  308     106.2
Ray Caldwell              260     106.2
Alvin Crowder             292     106.2
Cy Falkenberg             266     106.2
Jim Maloney               262     106.0
Joe Niekro                500     106.0
Dan Petry                 300     106.0
Paul Splittorff           392     106.0
Dennis Martinez           562     105.9
Tom Browning              300     105.8
Al Downing                317     105.8
Dennis Leonard            302     105.8
Pete Harnisch             318     105.7
Jerry Reuss               548     105.7
Bill Sherdel              273     105.7
Charley Root              341     105.6
Early Wynn                611     105.6
Vida Blue                 473     105.5
Doug Drabek               387     105.5
Mike Krukow               355     105.5
Kenny Rogers              370     105.5
Jimmy Key                 389     105.4
Sandy Koufax              314     105.4
Dave Stewart              348     105.3
Earl Whitehill            473     105.2
Jim Kaat                  625     105.1
Fred Norman               268     105.1
Jeff Pfeffer              279     105.1
Mike Flanagan             404     105.0
Dave Goltz                264     105.0
Frank Lary                292     105.0
Jesse Barnes              313     104.9
Clarence Mitchell         277     104.9
Geoff Zahn                270     104.9
Steve Carlton             709     104.8
Luis Tiant                484     104.8
John Denny                322     104.7
Mike Garcia               281     104.7
John Burkett              423     104.6
Lefty Grove               457     104.6
George Mullin             428     104.6
Joe Nuxhall               287     104.5
Don Sutton                756     104.5
Greg Swindell             269     104.4
Mark Portugal             283     104.3
Milt Wilcox               283     104.3
Mark Gardner              275     104.2
Camilo Pascual            404     104.2
Waite Hoyt                425     104.0
Johnny Podres             340     103.9
Bob Welch                 462     103.9
Jaime Navarro             309     103.7
Bob Ewing                 264     103.6
Mike Mussina              413     103.5
Orel Hershiser            466     103.4
Preacher Roe              261     103.4
Joaquin Andujar           305     103.3
David Cone                419     103.3
Claude Passeau            331     103.3
Lefty Tyler               267     103.3
Tim Wakefield             283     103.3
Jamie Moyer               453     103.1
Jim Rooker                255     103.0
Urban Shocker             317     103.0
Carl Hubbell              433     102.9
Mike Scott                319     102.9
Sonny Siebert             307     102.9
Rick Sutcliffe            392     102.9
Red Ames                  371     102.8
Bob Knepper               413     102.8
Tommy John                700     102.7
Walt Terrell              294     102.7
Larry Dierker             329     102.6
Tom Glavine               570     102.6
Jon Lieber                252     102.6
Curt Simmons              462     102.6
Doyle Alexander           464     102.4
Bob Ojeda                 291     102.4
Wilson Alvarez            261     102.2
Alex Fernandez            261     102.2
Babe Adams                354     102.1
Stan Coveleski            385     102.1
Richard Dotson            295     102.1
Wes Ferrell               323     102.1
Fernando Valenzuela       424     102.1
Dutch Leonard             272     102.0
Scott Sanderson           407     102.0
Dick Donovan              273     101.9
Doc White                 363     101.7
Burt Hooton               377     101.6
Virgil Trucks             328     101.6
Ed Whitson                332     101.5
Tommy Bridges             362     101.4
Lee Meadows               405     101.3
Frank Tanana              616     101.3
Stan Bahnsen              327     101.2
Willis Hudlin             328     101.2
Jack McDowell             275     101.2
Denny Neagle              286     101.2
Kevin Tapani              354     101.1
Red Lucas                 302     101.0
Earl Moore                326     101.0
Pete Alexander            600     100.9
Don Drysdale              465     100.9
Wilbur Cooper             406     100.8
Fergie Jenkins            594     100.8
Hideo Nomo                299     100.8
Curt Davis                280     100.7
Darryl Kile               331     100.7
Ed Walsh                  315     100.7
Tom Hughes                313     100.6
Slim Sallee               307     100.6
Mel Stottlemyre           356     100.6
Scott Erickson            356     100.5
Andy Messersmith          295     100.5
Red Faber                 483     100.4
Fritz Peterson            330     100.4
Pat Dobson                279     100.3
Pete Donohue              267     100.3
Jim Slaton                359     100.3
Steve Stone               269     100.3
Jim Bunning               519     100.2
Ray Sadecki               328     100.2
Bill Lee                  379     100.1
Bob Veale                 255     100.1
Cy Young                  405     100.1
Esteban Loaiza            263      99.9
John Smiley               280      99.8
John Smoltz               361      99.8
Rube Benton               311      99.7
Rick Rhoden               380      99.7
Rube Walberg              306      99.7
Joe Coleman               340      99.6
Rube Marquard             408      99.6
Jim Perry                 447      99.6
Jose Rijo                 269      99.6
Mike Boddicker            309      99.5
Bucky Walters             398      99.5
Sam Jones                 487      99.4
Mike Witt                 299      99.4
Andy Benes                387      99.3
Bill Doak                 369      99.3
Hippo Vaughn              331      99.3
Ken Hill                  315      99.1
Howie Pollet              277      99.1
Mickey Lolich             496      98.9
Billy Pierce              433      98.9
Charlie Leibrandt         346      98.8
Bill Singer               308      98.8
Fred Toney                271      98.8
Bill Hands                260      98.7
Vern Kennedy              263      98.7
Claude Osteen             488      98.7
Pedro Astacio             304      98.6
Addie Joss                260      98.6
Van Mungo                 259      98.5
Bob Tewksbury             277      98.4
Joe Bush                  370      98.3
Bret Saberhagen           371      98.3
Tim Belcher               373      98.2
Andy Ashby                285      98.1
Bud Black                 296      98.1
Roger Clemens             639      98.0
Dutch Leonard             375      98.0
Terry Mulholland          332      98.0
Rudy May                  360      97.9
Woodie Fryman             322      97.8
Harry Howell              255      97.8
Wilbur Wood               297      97.8
Kevin Brown               463      97.7
Bump Hadley               355      97.7
Randy Johnson             479      97.6
Pedro Martinez            321      97.4
Al Orth                   284      97.3
Paul Derringer            445      97.2
Murry Dickson             338      97.1
Bob Gibson                482      97.1
John Tudor                263      97.1
Dean Chance               294      97.0
Rick Mahler               271      97.0
Bob Purkey                276      97.0
Larry French              383      96.9
Phil Niekro               716      96.9
Dizzy Trout               322      96.9
Pat Hentgen               306      96.8
Milt Pappas               465      96.8
Bill Monbouquette         263      96.7
Denny Galehouse           258      96.6
Jimmy Ring                294      96.6
Dave Stieb                412      96.6
Vic Willis                395      96.6
Bert Blyleven             685      96.4
Walter Johnson            666      96.4
Steve Renko               365      96.4
Tommy Thomas              267      96.1
Dick Ellsworth            310      96.0
Hal Newhouser             374      95.9
Tom Seaver                647      95.9
Gaylord Perry             690      95.8
Bobby Witt                397      95.8
Tom Zachary               408      95.8
Dennis Eckersley          361      95.7
Mel Harder                433      95.7
Curt Schilling            370      95.7
Ray Burris                302      95.6
Mike Moore                440      95.6
Robin Roberts             609      95.6
Chris Short               308      95.5
Rube Waddell              331      95.5
Jack Quinn                443      95.4
Pedro Ramos               268      95.4
Dick Ruthven              332      95.4
Jerry Koosman             527      95.1
Nolan Ryan                773      95.1
Ted Lyons                 484      94.9
Rick Wise                 455      94.9
Jim Deshaies              253      94.8
Greg Maddux               604      94.8
Johnny Antonelli          268      94.6
Chuck Finley              467      94.6
Kevin Appier              402      94.5
Jim Barr                  252      94.5
Howard Ehmke              338      94.4
Chick Fraser              252      94.4
George Mogridge           261      94.3
Rick Reuschel             529      94.3
Eppa Rixey                554      94.3
Larry Benton              261      94.2
Frank Castillo            267      94.2
Steve Barber              272      94.1
Danny Darwin              371      94.1
Jack Powell               405      93.8
Kevin Gross               368      93.4
Danny Jackson             324      93.3
Dave Roberts              277      93.3
Zane Smith                291      93.3
Steve Trachsel            344      93.3
Charlie Hough             440      93.1
Floyd Bannister           363      93.0
Larry Jackson             429      92.9
Mark Gubicza              329      92.8
Dazzy Vance               349      92.6
Johnny Vander Meer        286      92.5
Frank Viola               420      92.4
Bob Friend                497      92.3
Ismael Valdes             281      92.3
Don Cardwell              301      92.2
Al Leiter                 356      92.1
Mike Morgan               411      92.1
Mark Langston             428      92.0
Jim Abbott                254      91.9
Bill Dineen               289      91.9
Dolf Luque                367      91.9
Jack Fisher               265      91.8
Joe Horlen                290      91.6
Tully Sparks              252      91.6
Sam McDowell              346      91.4
Jon Matlack               318      91.3
Tom Candiotti             410      91.2
Alex Kellner              250      91.1
Brad Radke                318      90.9
Danny MacFayden           334      90.7
Randy Jones               285      90.5
Jim Clancy                381      90.4
Ned Garver                330      90.2
Earl Hamilton             262      90.1
Bobo Newsom               483      90.1
Ed Brandt                 278      89.9
Bob Groom                 288      89.7
Rick Honeycutt            268      89.3
Steve Rogers              393      89.0
Bill Dietrich             253      88.8
Thornton Lee              272      88.5
George Blaeholder         251      87.2
Bob Rush                  321      86.6
Milt Gaston               269      85.7
Sid Hudson                279      85.3
Ken Raffensberger         282      84.6
Jose DeLeon               264      84.5
Si Johnson                272      82.5
Nap Rucker                274      82.0

According to this, Niekro is 273rd out of 371 pitchers in history in run support. Blyleven and Walter Johnson are tied, beneath him. Seaver, Perry, Robin Roberts are also below him, historically.

The pitcher with the WORST run support, out of everyone? My best pick for greatest that ever lived. Greg Maddux.

[csh19792001]

Ubi, while we're on the subject....I think you'll appreciate this:

Between 1963 and 1966, Sandy Koufax was 76-7 with 18 no decisions in his starts that the Dodgers scored 3 or more runs. He still had a winning record when they scored fewer than 3 runs! Now that is insane.

 Run
Support   W    L   ND    
=======================
  0       0    6    0    
  1       8    8    1    
  2      13    6    7    
  3      18    3    2   
  4      19    3    1   
  5      15    0    4  
 >6      24    1   11   
=======================
0-2      21   20    8    
 >3      76    7   18    
=======================
TOTAL    97   27   26

[Ubiquitous]

According to BRef Phil lost 59 games in which his team scored 0 runs. In those 59 games his ERA was 3.60. His career average was 3.35 so while his team didn't score for him it wasn't like he was pitching lights out either.

He lost 16 games while giving up 1 earned run or less with one of those games having 4 runs scored on him while only counting 1 as earned.
He lost 17 games while giving up 2 earned runs including two 4 run games.
He lost 10 games while giving up 3 earned runs.
He lost 09 games while giving up 4 earned runs.
He lost 03 games while giving up 5 earned runs
He lost 02 games while giving up 6 earned runs
He lost 02 games while giving up 7 to 8 earned runs.

He did have 2 no decisions while giving up 1 run in 9 innings and his team getting no runs.

As far as run support goes his teams did score 4.22 runs per start for him which is above average for the era and leagues he played. Plus if you take out the 61 games in which his teams scored no runs at all then the rest of the games go up even higher than that. If I'm doing it right in games that this team did not get shutout they scored 4.61 runs per game. Now obviously everybody would have their run support go up if we do that but since Niekro is one of those players that has a lot of shutout losses his will go up more than most players would.

[Ubiquitous]

So was Niekro getting robbed by all those shutouts against him?

Well, his record was 229-69 when allowing 2 earned runs or less for a .768 winning % in 336 starts.

How does that compare to other players?

Well, there were 32 pitchers who pitched between 1964 and 1987 that got 200 or more starts where they gave up 2 runs or less. Phil's winning % is 20th best of that group.

[flash143817]

My beef with the "Small Hall" guys is simple: The HOF is Baseball's Biggest Honor. It means something to the fans of individual players, and to the players themselves. To suddenly jack up the standards of the Hall to where Player A has no chance of enshrinement while Players B, C, D, E, F, and G, all truly comparable, are in the HOF, is extremely unfair. Put it this way: How would the Small Hall crowd react if their company, after decades of setting the bar for Employee of the Year at one level, jacked up the standard to Employee of the Decade level right when you were a viable candidate for the award? You'd be unhappy. This is an imperfect analogy, but I'd be angry if someone jacked up the standards of an award when it became my turn to be eligible.

So you would also be in the camp that supports participation awards for everybody? Everybody's a winner?

If you want to be in the Hall of Fame, then leave no doubt. In most cases, if you have to debate whether a guy deserves enshrinement, then he probably doesn't.

[Matthew C.]

So you would also be in the camp that supports participation awards for everybody? Everybody's a winner?

If you want to be in the Hall of Fame, then leave no doubt. In most cases, if you have to debate whether a guy deserves enshrinement, then he probably doesn't.

Regardless of what the arbitrary cuttoff is, you will always have borderline cases. We will see what I mean when the 5th-7th ranked teams are left out of the NCAA playoffs.

[jalbright]

To expand on Matt C.'s point, when the NCAA men's basketball tournament was 32, there were howls over the exclusions. Increasing the field to 64 didn't stop the howling about exclusions, and now that it's 68, it's still the same. If Cooperstown had only 100, there'd be controversies over who's in and who's out, and if it was 300, the controversies would still be there. Of course, it would be over different players, but the controversies would remain. Of course, if the selections to Cooperstown, mostly by various versions of the Veteran's Committee, hadn't made so many significantly below the borderline picks, we wouldn't have so many controversies.

[Jackaroo Dave]

So you would also be in the camp that supports participation awards for everybody? Everybody's a winner?

If you want to be in the Hall of Fame, then leave no doubt. In most cases, if you have to debate whether a guy deserves enshrinement, then he probably doesn't.

So, since there were no unanimous picks . . . . You must be a very small hall guy.

[White Knight]

I agree with Reggie about Puckett. I think it's a joke that he's in the Hall Of Fame - eye problems or not.

That being said, Gary Carter is a no-brainer HOFer. He's top 10 all-time at his position. Can Reggie make the same claim?

Puckett was one of my favorite non-Yankees growing up. He would have gotten 3,000 hits, plus he hit for high (sometimes very high) average and played amazing defense. I don't see how so many hate on him.

[White Knight]

Bernie Williams is more deserving of the HOF than Puckett.

No he isn't. Bernie fizzled at a young age for no reason, which is unacceptable. Puckett declined because he got hit in the head (yes, I believe that is the reason for his eye injuries, and call me what you want, I believe it's what caused his death) and lost his eyesight. Puckett was also a vastly better CFer. Nothing against the Twins, but Kirby was so popular even grandmothers heard of him. Bernie on the Twins would have gone unnoticed.

[flash143817]

So, since there were no unanimous picks . . . . You must be a very small hall guy.

Obviously those jackasses that refuse to vote for anyone on the first ballot regardless don't count to me. If you are above 90% I'd call that leaving no doubt.

I certainly support a small Hall.

But since it will never happen I'm going to propose having an "inner" or "upper-level" HOF. A 25 man roster that is above normal HOF induction.

You have to be elected into the regular HOF first, but after that you are placed in consideration to make the 25 man upper roster. That number never goes above 25. If somebody is voted into it, it means somebody has to be removed to make room. It is the elite of the elite and is a way to placate the "participation award HOF" people and the "small HOF" people at the same time. You still maintain the same 75% standard that is in place now, but there is a greater reward available to those that are above that level.


Disclaimer: Those that may have read Bill Simmons' basketball book will realize that I blatantly stole his HOF idea from that book and amended it to a baseball setting.

[Matthew C.]

Disclaimer: Those that may have read Bill Simmons' basketball book will realize that I blatantly stole his HOF idea from that book and amended it to a baseball setting.

The best sports book I have ever read.

[Ubiquitous]

Bernie Williams put up a 100 OPS+ from age 34 to 37. A figure equal to or better than 41 HoF'ers for that same age range.

[flash143817]

The best sports book I have ever read.

Absolutely. Outstanding book and his ideas on the basketball HOF are excellent, both the process and the physical setup of the HOF.

Once you get past his Boston homerism, Simmons' writing is second to none.

[SamtheBravesFan]

The best sports book I have ever read.

Hear hear.

[Matthew C.]

Absolutely. Outstanding book and his ideas on the basketball HOF are excellent, both the process and the physical setup of the HOF.

Once you get past his Boston homerism, Simmons' writing is second to none.

It was one of the few books that I have ever read in which I disagreed with 50% of what the writer said, but still loved every second of it.