why is 3rd base the weakest position historically?

[Blackout]

Mike Schmidt
Pie Traynor
Brooks Robinson
George Brett
Chipper Jones

these are the top 5 full time 3rd basemen ....what makes this position so weak?


every other position seems to be stronger by a mile

[willshad]

It's really not as weak as you make it out to be. Replace Traynor and Robinson with Matthews and Boggs, and suddenly it looks much better at the top. I think it certainly a 'stronger' position historically than shortstops and catchers. I will admit, though, that until Matthews came along, it was just a pitiful position historically.

[Blackout]

you think it's better than SHORTSTOPS?

Honus Wagner, A-rod, Jeter, Ripken, Trammell etc. is a much better group to me

[chicagowhitesox1173]

Shortstops through history in my opinion were usually regarded as weak position players. Yet thirdbasemen were somewhat considered a power type position so I agree and he makes a very good point about lack of top notch thirdbasemen. Really from 1900 until when maybe Eddie Mathews retired Pie Traynor was the best ever.

[ol' aches and pains]

Mike Schmidt
Pie Traynor
Brooks Robinson
George Brett
Chipper Jones

these are the top 5 full time 3rd basemen ....what makes this position so weak?


every other position seems to be stronger by a mile

BTW, Eddie Mathews beats Brooks Robinson 143/104 in OPS+, 91 to 72 in WAR. Mathews drove in 100 more runs than Robinson in six fewer years! I don't see how Mathews isn't a top five third baseman.

[Bigfoot 88]

Mike Schmidt
Pie Traynor
Brooks Robinson
George Brett
Chipper Jones

these are the top 5 full time 3rd basemen ....what makes this position so weak?


every other position seems to be stronger by a mile

I would easily place Mathews and Boggs above Traynor and Robinson.

[dgarza]

Mike Schmidt
Pie Traynor
Brooks Robinson
George Brett
Chipper Jones

In a few years, we probably will add Alex Rodriguez to this list.

And 3B is not the weakest at the top anyway. It's about as strong/weak as SS. And Catcher is actually the weakest position.

[dgarza]

you think it's better than SHORTSTOPS?

Honus Wagner, A-rod, Jeter, Ripken, Trammell etc. is a much better group to me

You're selling SS short here by including Trammell at the top. Replace him with Arky Vaughan. Or even Ernie Banks, although he played more 1B.

[brett]

One big problem with third baseman on all time lists is that they burn out young. Third base may not be as important a fielding position but it is a physically and mentally stressful position, almost like catcher but not at that level. Third baseman get bad knees charging grounders, have hard line drives hit at them, and have to do a little dangerous stuff in foul territory on pop-ups. I just bet that if you take the top 20 third baseman in games played compared to the top 20 SSs you will see that shortstops last longer. Also perhaps third baseman are often big shortstops who couldn't quite handle playing SS at the major league level. Another problem is that third base was almost certainly a more important defensive position than second base up into the 30s and was more important than it is today up until the late 50s.

[GiambiJuice]

Scott Rolen, Ron Santo > Alan Trammell.

[leecemark]

--Until probably the 1930s many, even most teams, were playing their 2nd best SS at 3B. Good hitting infielders who couldn't handle SS were more often playing 2B - see Lajoie, Collins and Hornsby as examples of guys who outhit any 3B during the first 60 years of MLB (well even longer really as Mathews is the first 3B who approaches their level over any length of time). Below the all time great level you'll find many more 2B who were outhitting most 3B.
--Even today there are still teams who go defense first at the hot corner. Also many really good hitting 3B get moved (Killebrew, Allen, Perez and Thome are examples of moves at the MLB level, but many more get shifted before arriving). In many cases teams would probaly be better served living with less than optimal defense to keep another big bat in the lineup, but you don't see many bat first 3B's sticking at the spot for full careers.

[GiambiJuice]

--Until probably the 1930s many, even most teams, were playing their 2nd best SS at 3B. Good hitting infielders who couldn't handle SS were more often playing 2B - see Lajoie, Collins and Hornsby as examples of guys who outhit any 3B during the first 60 years of MLB (well even longer really as Mathews is the first 3B who approaches their level over any length of time). Below the all time great level you'll find many more 2B who were outhitting most 3B.
--Even today there are still teams who go defense first at the hot corner. Also many really good hitting 3B get moved (Killebrew, Allen, Perez and Thome are examples of moves at the MLB level, but many more get shifted before arriving). In many cases teams would probaly be better served living with less than optimal defense to keep another big bat in the lineup, but you don't see many bat first 3B's sticking at the spot for full careers.

Yep, Braun and Cabrera are two names that come to mind immediately. (Though Cabrera has since moved back to 3B to make room for Prince Fielder).

[leewileyfan]

Third base is very deep in MLB history, starting with being the most challenged position [except maybe, catching] through the dead-ball era. Names like, Leach, Lowe, Bradley, Steinfeldt, Collins, Devlin, Moriarty, Austin, and Frank [Homerun] Baker were prominently noted by fans. As MLB moved from deadball and into the livelier ball, guys like Groh, Vitt, Zimmerman, Frisch, War, Pinelli and Dykes came to the fore.

It's also interesting to scan the above names to see how many 3B moved on to management, from among the pre-War crop of Kamm, Pinelli, Bluege, Dressen, Whitney, Myer J. Sewell, Stripp, Higgins.

Much underrated Harlond Clift was the catalyst that shifted 3B into a power/on-base position, along with defense in an era that included names like Traynor, Hack, Keltner and Majeski.

That's just up into 1942. Given the above names to chose from and then adding everyone who came after, I'd seriously question the "elites" selected at the introduction of the thread.

Third base may not have a very limited cluster of Mount Olympus names; but it certainly has a tremendous depth of history and star performance, including HoF membership.

[NJRob65]

The Top 5 Third basemen of all time, minimum of 1000 games at third base in the major leagues, consideration is for games played at third base only.

1- Mike Schmidt
2-Eddie Mathews
3-Wade Boggs
4-George Brett
5- Chipper Jones

Pie Traynor is nowhere near number 2 of all time, he isn't even anywhere near the Top 10, to list him in the Top 20 is being generous.

Brooks Robinson is in the bottom rungs of the Top 10, nowhere near #3.

[Blackout]

Pie Traynor is nowhere near number 2 of all time, he isn't even anywhere near the Top 10, to list him in the Top 20 is being generous.

so are you saying we have no top 20 third basemen before the 1950s?

[chicagowhitesox1173]

The Top 5 Third basemen of all time, minimum of 1000 games at third base in the major leagues, consideration is for games played at third base only.

1- Mike Schmidt
2-Eddie Mathews
3-Wade Boggs
4-George Brett
5- Chipper Jones

Pie Traynor is nowhere near number 2 of all time, he isn't even anywhere near the Top 10, to list him in the Top 20 is being generous.

Brooks Robinson is in the bottom rungs of the Top 10, nowhere near #3.

I wouldn't say Traynor is that bad. I can see him being a top 10 thirdbaseman. Realistically he's in the 11-15 range.

[dgarza]

I wouldn't say Traynor is that bad. I can see him being a top 10 thirdbaseman. Realistically he's in the 11-15 range.

I pretty much agree with this. I have him around 12 or 13.

But Traynor was never the best 3B in baseball history. Frank Baker came before him, so that spot was already taken.

My Top 5 3B through 1937 (Traynor's last season):
1. Frank Baker
2. Deacon White - I know some people refuse to list him with 3B, but I do
3. Pie Traynor
4. Jimmy Collins
5. Tommy Leach/Denny Lyons/Heinie Groh/John McGraw/Heinie Zimmerman

[leewileyfan]

If anyone wants to parse the history and evolution of position play and emphasis at 3B, Harlond Clift has to get prominent mention for bringing the power/on-base element to the positon ... in addition to defensive demands.

Clift gets shuffled to the back of the pack because of a career abbreviated by the long-term and devastating effects of adult onset mumps ... awful in the pre-WW II world. The mumps + a ranching accident did him in by age 30-31.

[abolishthedh]

Third base may not have a very limited cluster of Mount Olympus names; but it certainly has a tremendous depth of history and star performance, including HoF membership.

How many 3B over the past century have been lefthanded? This is no way to criticize anyone, but that I suspect baseball scouts and managers were biased against lefty 3B for defensive purposes. There may well have been a perception that a lefty 3B would need an extra step to turn around and throw, or that throws would be off balance.

George Brett changed that perception, to some extent, because the Royals decided they needed his bat in the lineup regardless. As it turned out, Brett worked enough on his defense that any perceived shortcoming was overcome. Oops, upon research, Brett learned to throw righthanded anyway to help out on this perceived shortcoming.

Since 3B prior to Brett would have been well before ESPN, and maybe before TV at all, does anyone know how many strong lefty third basemen were around before Brett? This list could include HoFer, or not.

[flash143817]

How many 3B over the past century have been lefthanded? This is no way to criticize anyone, but that I suspect baseball scouts and managers were biased against lefty 3B for defensive purposes. There may well have been a perception that a lefty 3B would need an extra step to turn around and throw, or that throws would be off balance.

George Brett changed that perception, to some extent, because the Royals decided they needed his bat in the lineup regardless. As it turned out, Brett worked enough on his defense that any perceived shortcoming was overcome. Oops, upon research, Brett learned to throw righthanded anyway to help out on this perceived shortcoming.

Since 3B prior to Brett would have been well before ESPN, and maybe before TV at all, does anyone know how many strong lefty third basemen were around before Brett? This list could include HoFer, or not.

If you are talking left hand throwing, there hasn't been a regular 3rd baseman that threw left handed since the 1800s.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

How many 3B over the past century have been lefthanded? This is no way to criticize anyone, but that I suspect baseball scouts and managers were biased against lefty 3B for defensive purposes. There may well have been a perception that a lefty 3B would need an extra step to turn around and throw, or that throws would be off balance.

George Brett changed that perception, to some extent, because the Royals decided they needed his bat in the lineup regardless. As it turned out, Brett worked enough on his defense that any perceived shortcoming was overcome. Oops, upon research, Brett learned to throw righthanded anyway to help out on this perceived shortcoming.Since 3B prior to Brett would have been well before ESPN, and maybe before TV at all, does anyone know how many strong lefty third basemen were around before Brett? This list could include HoFer, or not.

Wasn't Brett a right handed thrower who would at times show his ability to throw fairly well left handed.
I don't think it was bias or perception by scouts or managers regarding a left handed thrower playing third base, no way would it ever work.

[leewileyfan]

I don't know why the left-handed throwing reference at 3B was addressed to me; but yes, especially in the deadball era, having a lefty-throwing 3B-man would have been a disaster.

When I was a kid going to my first MLB games, the bias in favor of left-handed throwers at first base was just in its declining phase, partly because the deadball era was essentially over and partly because the bunt challenge to throwing mechanisms was far more pronounced against third basemen than it was against first basemen.

Given the demand that a 3B be a right-handed thrower, I guess the odds would probably sway toward candidates being right-handed batters as well. I was NEVER aware of any bias against lefty hitters playing 3b - ever.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I don't know why the left-handed throwing reference at 3B was addressed to me; but yes, especially in the deadball era, having a lefty-throwing 3B-man would have been a disaster.

When I was a kid going to my first MLB games, the bias in favor of left-handed throwers at first base was just in its declining phase, partly because the deadball era was essentially over and partly because the bunt challenge to throwing mechanisms was far more pronounced against third basemen than it was against first basemen.

Given the demand that a 3B be a right-handed thrower, I guess the odds would probably sway toward candidates being right-handed batters as well. I was NEVER aware of any bias against lefty hitters playing 3b - ever.

You got it right Lee, there was never any bias against left handed hitters playing third base.
This one is easy, they would of course want a right handed thrower playing third base, you don't want a LH thrower at third base, thats obvious.

So the odds are, most RH throwers are RH batters. In all the years I played, pick up, Little League, Muny Leagues almost every RH thrower I can recall at any position were also RH batters. Looking back, the easiest to remember, close friends, the guys I played with the most I can only remember one or two RH throwers that batted left handed.

I'm sure long ago that was more true, you throw RH and you most likely bat RH. In more recent years some now aware that the LH batter has more favorable hitting conditions, a greater number learn to bat LH even if a RH thrower.

[brett]

Wasn't Brett a right handed thrower who would at times show his ability to throw fairly well left handed.
I don't think it was bias or perception by scouts or managers regarding a left handed thrower playing third base, no way would it ever work.

I sent him a message but he is swarmed. Brett did throw batting practice left handed but he played first base right handed. I think he was probably a natural lefty who used his right hand as a kid to the point of being effectively ambidextrous.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I sent him a message but he is swarmed. Brett did throw batting practice left handed but he played first base right handed. I think he was probably a natural lefty who used his right hand as a kid to the point of being effectively ambidextrous.

I would think he threw a good deal RH early in life even though being a natural left handed thrower. To be able to play MLB and throw RH even though a natural lefty, not an easy task, especially throwing from third base.

OK Brett, I'm sure if he does contact you, we will know more.