At what age do most youth achieve a proper bat path as part of their swing?

[pthawaii]

I'm wondering at do what age most youth baseball players achieve a slightly upward bat path (matching pitch plane), as seen by most MLB players?

I watched a few of the LL World Series games and noticed that during instant replays of hard hit balls and HR most if the swings did not have an upward swing path through the ball. Most were level to the ground and many we even down through contact.

I figure these are the elite youth of the game, and if they haven't achieved "proper bat path" then maybe it's not something that is typically mastered until much later.

To answer this question, one must accept that the proper bat path through the ball is slightly upward in plane with the incoming pitch, as seen by many slow motion swing analysis of many MLB players.

I ask this question in part because after doing fairly well with the "bath path" concept in coach pitch, my son now going into kid pitch has gone back to level or slightly downward swing through the ball. I've let it go for the most part because I'm just letting him focus on getting used to and making contact with an overhand pitch, but I'm not even sure it's something I should worry about after seeing many of the LL World Series kids swings.

At what age do most youth baseball players achieve a slightly upward bat path (matching pitch plane), as seen by most MLB players?

** Note the key word "most." I'm basically looking for an average or general guideline recognizing and accepting the fact that each child is different, etc. etc.

[songtitle]

Age has nothing to do with technique.

Also many, if not most, swings are ruined by the constant barrage of "hands to the ball", "squish the bug" and other cues by the time they are 12.

[The Uncoach]

Why would those be the "elite youth?" All you need is an early developer who throws 75+ from 46' and you're going to win almost 100% of the time.

[d-mac]

If you have CBS Sports Network, watch the NYBC 12u championship game tonight. Those are the elite 12 year olds and almost all of them will have a major league swing path. The first four batters for the Banditos have incredible swings. In the semi's they had a kid hit a ball around 350 feet. He wasn't some monster either. Now, the team from Florida that the Banditos beat, had Bill Cartwright's nephew on it. He was 6-4 220 lbs and wore a size 16 shoe.

[Jake Patterson]

Age has nothing to do with technique.

Also many, if not most, swings are ruined by the constant barrage of "hands to the ball", "squish the bug" and other cues by the time they are 12.

I agree with Song.... I've seen some accomplish great things at a young age with regards to technique and other develop them later and still have great basball lives.

[raptor]

If you have CBS Sports Network, watch the NYBC 12u championship game tonight. Those are the elite 12 year olds and almost all of them will have a major league swing path. The first four batters for the Banditos have incredible swings. In the semi's they had a kid hit a ball around 350 feet. He wasn't some monster either. Now, the team from Florida that the Banditos beat, had Bill Cartwright's nephew on it. He was 6-4 220 lbs and wore a size 16 shoe.

That should be a fun game to watch. Phenom imports from all over the country. They have the #1 from Grant in Oakland which is probably the nation's best team. Grant mercy ruled the Banditos earlier in the year.

[pstein]

I'm wondering at do what age most youth baseball players achieve a slightly upward bat path (matching pitch plane), as seen by most MLB players?

I watched a few of the LL World Series games and noticed that during instant replays of hard hit balls and HR most if the swings did not have an upward swing path through the ball. Most were level to the ground and many we even down through contact.

I figure these are the elite youth of the game, and if they haven't achieved "proper bat path" then maybe it's not something that is typically mastered until much later.

To answer this question, one must accept that the proper bat path through the ball is slightly upward in plane with the incoming pitch, as seen by many slow motion swing analysis of many MLB players.

I ask this question in part because after doing fairly well with the "bath path" concept in coach pitch, my son now going into kid pitch has gone back to level or slightly downward swing through the ball. I've let it go for the most part because I'm just letting him focus on getting used to and making contact with an overhand pitch, but I'm not even sure it's something I should worry about after seeing many of the LL World Series kids swings.

At what age do most youth baseball players achieve a slightly upward bat path (matching pitch plane), as seen by most MLB players?

** Note the key word "most." I'm basically looking for an average or general guideline recognizing and accepting the fact that each child is different, etc. etc.

Never, there's a difference between attempting to match the plane of the pitch and having the correct barrel path (deep whoosh). I'd say 99% of college players don't have it.

[NoonTime]

Lots of highlights of NYBC on mlb.com
http://mlb.mlb.com/search/media.jsp?..._key=2009_nybc

[Bolts-Baseball]

i3uw46.jpg
Which one of these guys is the 1st ballot HOF...?

LOL!!

[HeinekenMan]

Age has nothing to do with technique.

Also many, if not most, swings are ruined by the constant barrage of "hands to the ball", "squish the bug" and other cues by the time they are 12.

I undertand why those two examples are incorrect. But they sure beat "keep your elbow up". If I feel that telling kids the above will help them move closer to the proper swing, I will use them. I used "hands to the ball" a little when I was working with kids who were around 6 or 7. In my experience, kids were able to do what they needed to do even if the advice seems to suggest something that is not correct. I do have a few kids this fall who leave the back foot flat on the ground. It seems like squish the bug would be a step in the right direction. I usually tell them to turn the back foot. And that's really no more correct than telling them to squish the bug.

[tg643]

A swing is a constant work in progress. Otherwise there would be no need for college, minor league and MLB hitting coaches. One of my son's travel teammates was the state GatorAde Player of the Year. He's in A ball now. They're still working on his swing.

[DerekD]

I'm wondering at do what age most youth baseball players achieve a slightly upward bat path (matching pitch plane), as seen by most MLB players?

I think a better question would be when a kid could start to develop their swing into that type of swing. For me, I didn't do a whole lot with my son when he started. I tried to get him into a reasonable stance and let him go from there. I would just tell him to hit the ball hard. It seemed like he was always figuring something out for himself. When he was able understand what instructors were trying to teach him about his swing was maybe around age 9 I suppose. He didn't have any private instruction for hitting until last year at age 13. Before that, it was camps here and there.

[raptor]

If you have CBS Sports Network, watch the NYBC 12u championship game tonight. Those are the elite 12 year olds and almost all of them will have a major league swing path. The first four batters for the Banditos have incredible swings. In the semi's they had a kid hit a ball around 350 feet. He wasn't some monster either. Now, the team from Florida that the Banditos beat, had Bill Cartwright's nephew on it. He was 6-4 220 lbs and wore a size 16 shoe.

Banditos win..back to back 12u titles. And 3 out of last six. If Phenom had been able to win the semis without throwing their #1 it might have been different.

[d-mac]

The two middle infielders for the Banditos have a bright future ahead of them. The 2b hit over .800 in the tournament and the SS has a phenomenal swing and hit two balls over 300ft tonight. Both kids can run, as well. I was surprised at how sloppy the game was. Phenom let three pop ups hit the ground.

[pthawaii]

I agree with Song.... I've seen some accomplish great things at a young age with regards to technique and other develop them later and still have great basball lives.

I suppose I was trying to avoid this sort of response with my, "** Note the key word "most." I'm basically looking for an average or general guideline recognizing and accepting the fact that each child is different, etc. etc." I keep thinking that baseball instruction for youth can be "age appropriate," I'm guessing from your response that baseball doesn't always work that way.

For example, in math, on average kids learn addition in 1st grade (plus minus a year) and multiplication in 3rd grade (plus minus a year). You wouldn't try to teach a normal 4 yo how to do multiplication.

I'm trying to get a sense about certain baseball instruction in a similar way. But given the responses here, it either doesn't work that way, or it hasn't been figured out yet. I make up, it's the later, because I've seen people provide opinions when something isn't age appropriate. For example, if someone were to post that they are trying to show their 5 yo how to stand in the batters box, I think many people would see that as a good thing. If someone was trying to show their 5 yo how to do something more high level (e.g. running start), many people would think they are over zealous and should chill.

So I'm thinking, gee am I being realistic or over zealous with trying to teach my son bat path. I know what I should teach him with math. Baseball, not so much. And without even a very very very rough approximate draft, I'm left to just sort of wing it.

Just wanted to give some context to my question.

[pthawaii]

I think a better question would be when a kid could start to develop their swing into that type of swing. For me, I didn't do a whole lot with my son when he started. I tried to get him into a reasonable stance and let him go from there. I would just tell him to hit the ball hard. It seemed like he was always figuring something out for himself. When he was able understand what instructors were trying to teach him about his swing was maybe around age 9 I suppose. He didn't have any private instruction for hitting until last year at age 13. Before that, it was camps here and there.

Thanks man for taking a shot at the question. I'm getting that it wasn't the easiest to answer, so I appreciate you taking a stab.

[shake-n-bake]

When they get muscles. In frosh baseball I saw big strong kids consistently have good swing paths. Most of the slighter kids reached and rolled the wrists prematurely more often. There were exceptions, but mostly held true. Saw a lot of nice swings among kids strong enough to not release their top hand. Again trying to generalize. It is obviously possible to have a good swing path with or without top hand release.

[raptor]

I'm wondering at do what age most youth baseball players achieve a slightly upward bat path (matching pitch plane), as seen by most MLB players?

I watched a few of the LL World Series games and noticed that during instant replays of hard hit balls and HR most if the swings did not have an upward swing path through the ball. Most were level to the ground and many we even down through contact.

I figure these are the elite youth of the game, and if they haven't achieved "proper bat path" then maybe it's not something that is typically mastered until much later.

To answer this question, one must accept that the proper bat path through the ball is slightly upward in plane with the incoming pitch, as seen by many slow motion swing analysis of many MLB players.

I ask this question in part because after doing fairly well with the "bath path" concept in coach pitch, my son now going into kid pitch has gone back to level or slightly downward swing through the ball. I've let it go for the most part because I'm just letting him focus on getting used to and making contact with an overhand pitch, but I'm not even sure it's something I should worry about after seeing many of the LL World Series kids swings.

At what age do most youth baseball players achieve a slightly upward bat path (matching pitch plane), as seen by most MLB players?

** Note the key word "most." I'm basically looking for an average or general guideline recognizing and accepting the fact that each child is different, etc. etc.

When he did coach pitch..was the coach throwing overhand standing, or from a knee? It may be as simple as him seeing straight over the top for a while vs a flatter trajectory now with kids throwing and he is adjusting himself.

[JJA]

I suppose I was trying to avoid this sort of response with my, "** Note the key word "most." I'm basically looking for an average or general guideline recognizing and accepting the fact that each child is different, etc. etc." I keep thinking that baseball instruction for youth can be "age appropriate," I'm guessing from your response that baseball doesn't always work that way.

For example, in math, on average kids learn addition in 1st grade (plus minus a year) and multiplication in 3rd grade (plus minus a year). You wouldn't try to teach a normal 4 yo how to do multiplication.

I'm trying to get a sense about certain baseball instruction in a similar way. But given the responses here, it either doesn't work that way, or it hasn't been figured out yet. I make up, it's the later, because I've seen people provide opinions when something isn't age appropriate. For example, if someone were to post that they are trying to show their 5 yo how to stand in the batters box, I think many people would see that as a good thing. If someone was trying to show their 5 yo how to do something more high level (e.g. running start), many people would think they are over zealous and should chill.

I like your question and analogy a lot. I always tell the parents at the first meeting that I'm a Teacher of Baseball, not a manager, which implies someone who is bossing people around, much like a manager at work. The sport most definitely can and should be taught as it is a tough game, with hitting the hardest thing to do in all of sports.

Unfortunately, your question is hard to answer. The reason for this is that most kids quit the game by the time they're 12 or so. Thus, unlike school where most kids make it through high school (at least middle school), most kids in baseball never get to any level of proficiency. Thus, if I answer your question precisely, most kids never get to any reasonable swing.

What I believe you are asking is about kids who go on to play high school ball at least. I'll also assume that what you're asking is when kids get a high level swing, rather than the narrower question about when they get a "slightly upward swing" path. The reason I'm making this assumption is that a kid could have a slightly upward path but might otherwise have poor mechanics that is probably not what you're asking.

With these two assumptions, I would say that by the time most guys are in high school (age 14), their basic swing is established. Most kids don't change their swing markedly after that, though if you get a good high school coach that isn't always true. To be more precise, I see a good swing developing between ages 10 and 14. After 14, most of the swing changes are typically tweaks rather than wholesale changes, though again this isn't universal. Usually the skill sets developed after 14 are less mechanics oriented and more hitting oriented, stuff like learning to hit the offspeed and curveball, hitting to the opposite field, learning patience at the plate, etc. Again, these are gross generalizations, not true of everyone, but you asked for generalizations so that's my opinion, for better or worse.

Hope this helps. Good question.

- JJA

[real green]

Lots of highlights of NYBC on mlb.com
http://mlb.mlb.com/search/media.jsp?..._key=2009_nybc

Granted I only watched the first inning, but I saw 12yr olds in 14/15 yr old bodies playing baseball like 12yr olds. I have heard a lot about these two teams, the 1st inning wasn't impressive.

[lancers]

So I'm thinking, gee am I being realistic or over zealous with trying to teach my son bat path. I know what I should teach him with math.

It's realistic for me but over zealous for you.

[steddie]

What are some significant differences between LLWS and NYBCWS? The playing field seemed to be bigger for NYBC, fences farther back -- which must have prevented alot of homeruns. Does one sanctioning body, more than the other, impose tougher guidelines on player selection for teams? Are the teams who win championship from either team roughly on par with one another? Is TV coverage exclusive for ESPN and CBS respectively?
(ooops, should have posted to diff thread...)

[raptor]

Granted I only watched the first inning, but I saw 12yr olds in 14/15 yr old bodies playing baseball like 12yr olds. I have heard a lot about these two teams, the 1st inning wasn't impressive.

That was a very sloppy game. The pitchers and hitters did well but defensively I was disappointed by both teams' fundamentals. Routine ground balls booted, pop ups dropping everywhere, pitchers falling down when fielding bunts, kids crying and coaches screaming on national Tv...ugly.

[pthawaii]

I like your question and analogy a lot. I always tell the parents at the first meeting that I'm a Teacher of Baseball, not a manager, which implies someone who is bossing people around, much like a manager at work. The sport most definitely can and should be taught as it is a tough game, with hitting the hardest thing to do in all of sports.

Unfortunately, your question is hard to answer. The reason for this is that most kids quit the game by the time they're 12 or so. Thus, unlike school where most kids make it through high school (at least middle school), most kids in baseball never get to any level of proficiency. Thus, if I answer your question precisely, most kids never get to any reasonable swing.

What I believe you are asking is about kids who go on to play high school ball at least. I'll also assume that what you're asking is when kids get a high level swing, rather than the narrower question about when they get a "slightly upward swing" path. The reason I'm making this assumption is that a kid could have a slightly upward path but might otherwise have poor mechanics that is probably not what you're asking.

With these two assumptions, I would say that by the time most guys are in high school (age 14), their basic swing is established. Most kids don't change their swing markedly after that, though if you get a good high school coach that isn't always true. To be more precise, I see a good swing developing between ages 10 and 14. After 14, most of the swing changes are typically tweaks rather than wholesale changes, though again this isn't universal. Usually the skill sets developed after 14 are less mechanics oriented and more hitting oriented, stuff like learning to hit the offspeed and curveball, hitting to the opposite field, learning patience at the plate, etc. Again, these are gross generalizations, not true of everyone, but you asked for generalizations so that's my opinion, for better or worse.

Hope this helps. Good question.

- JJA

Thanks JJA, your assumptions were good ones and what you said makes sense. So does the idea that shake put out there about muscles.

[pstein]

Unfortunately, your question is hard to answer. The reason for this is that most kids quit the game by the time they're 12 or so. Thus, unlike school where most kids make it through high school (at least middle school), most kids in baseball never get to any level of proficiency. Thus, if I answer your question precisely, most kids never get to any reasonable swing.

With these two assumptions, I would say that by the time most guys are in high school (age 14), their basic swing is established. Most kids don't change their swing markedly after that, though if you get a good high school coach that isn't always true. To be more precise, I see a good swing developing between ages 10 and 14. After 14, most of the swing changes are typically tweaks rather than wholesale changes, though again this isn't universal. Usually the skill sets developed after 14 are less mechanics oriented and more hitting oriented, stuff like learning to hit the offspeed and curveball, hitting to the opposite field, learning patience at the plate, etc. Again, these are gross generalizations, not true of everyone, but you asked for generalizations so that's my opinion, for better or worse.

Hope this helps. Good question.

JJA

I know these are gross generalizations (so I can't criticize them too much), but I disagree on when the "good swing" develops and when the mechanics are "set". Mechanics are never really "set". With enough repetitions, you can change them. I would agree that most kids don't play past the age of 12.

Most players never reach what I believe to be a "high-level" swing. That's based on what I see in college and minor league games. Watch two major D-1 schools play each other. I'll say USC and South Carolina, for the purposes of illustration. Yes, most of them have swings that will succeed at that level. But, the swings the players have are not high-level. These swings work because they're just as athletic (perhaps more athletic) than other players at that level. But when you get to the minors, facing a college ace every day, with a wooden bat, these guys fail in large numbers.

Anyway, back to my example about USC and South Carolina. If you watch the game all the way through, you may see one or two high-level swings. 1-2 of 18 players, assuming no pinch hitters or anything like that. Maybe in the minor leagues you'll see zero or one at A, one or two at AA, and two or three at AAA. Even guys in the MLB don't have the "high-level" swing.

I would also venture to say that most guys do not learn how to wait for the offspeed and curveball correctly. Rather, they build things into their swings that prevent them from hitting a good fastball when the pitcher can change speeds.