Jeff Sparks - Mike Marshall

[Jake Patterson]

We drill IF on all throws from different angles. I guess the question to Dirtberry could be paraphrased as to what extent he teaches the throwing mechaniccin full on infield plays given the desire to stand tall and throw over the top...Jake did you have difficulty with kids learning a pronated release on a ball thrown from the hip or lower torso..or are those the ones you just let fly..

Baseball is a situational sport that forces us to teach a combination of skills. Teaching ANY method and expecting optimal conditions during a game IMHO, just isn't going to happen in baseball. Yes, we taught pronated releases, but we also taught flips, shuffle throws, cross -body throws GS, cross-body TS, etc., etc. I am uncertain what answer you seek.

[NoonTime]

Here is a link to a collection of IF throwing GIFs.
http://baseballdebate.proboards.com/...ay&thread=1448

[raptor]

Thanks guys. Jake I was just trying to reconcile to what extent the IF throwing mechanics someone like Dirtberry from the MM camp would teach would look like the Sparks video.

[giantheart]

So as someone who just jumped into this discussion and read most of the posts...in simple English (don't use so many big words), why does Marshall and others recommend late pronation? The gif from noontime shows that several infielders do the same thing... That was news to me.

Apologies if this has been discussed before but a quick link to that discussion would help.

[Jake Patterson]

So as someone who just jumped into this discussion and read most of the posts...in simple English (don't use so many big words), why does Marshall and others recommend late pronation? The gif from noontime shows that several infielders do the same thing... That was news to me.

Apologies if this has been discussed before but a quick link to that discussion would help.

The easiest answer would be to hold you hand straight out and have someone twist your arm one way then the other.... What's less painful?

[giantheart]

The easiest answer would be to hold you hand straight out and have someone twist your arm one way then the other.... What's less painful?

if I supinate (thumbs up karate chop to thumbs pointing out) my forearm..it is more painful than if I pronate (thumbs up karate chop to thumbs pointing in and then down) my forearm, but what does that have to do with anything?

[LousivilleSlugger]

if I supinate (thumbs up karate chop to thumbs pointing out) my forearm..it is more painful than if I pronate (thumbs up karate chop to thumbs pointing in and then down) my forearm, but what does that have to do with anything?

Marshall doesn't teach late pronation, he teaches EARLY Pronation. Early Pronation does a couple things.

-Pronating all your pitches prevents the bones in the elbow from slamming into each other....especially on curveballs and sliders. Most traditional pitchers supinate their releases on sliders, cutters, and curveballs and this is bad for the elbow (Bone chips, as well as breaking the tip of the elbow like Joel Zumaya did).

Supination is just bad and it's the reason why youth pitchers should not be throwing supinated pitches because they run the risk of stunting the development of their pitching arm because their growth plates in the elbow are still open.

Early pronation also helps decelerate the pitching arm by engaging the latissmus dorsi muscle. The latissimus dorsi is the main accelerator in the top half of the pitching arm as well in Marshall's motion.

[Baseball gLove]

He's getting good hip/shoulder separation using the kinetic chain to help accelerate the pitches. This is why he's able to throw 94. He also has a high leg kick and doesn't appear to pronate at release. I see more traditional than I do Marshall in his motion.

I do see powerful pronation. The film rate may not be helping you to see it

[giantheart]

So what are you supposed to do to get early pronation? Do you mean showing the ball to 3rd base when bringing the arm back? Or is it showing the ball to third base throughout the whole arm motion?

The infielders in the link that noon put up do not pronate early but rather flip their wrist over late

And what the heck is this pendulum swing?

Sorry for my ignorance on this topic but ive tried to go through Marshall's stuff before and it is difficult to comprehend.
I found this thread as opportunity to educate myself without having to look up words in the dictionary every three minutes

[LousivilleSlugger]

So what are you supposed to do to get early pronation? Do you mean showing the ball to 3rd base when bringing the arm back? Or is it showing the ball to third base throughout the whole arm motion?

The infielders in the link that noon put up do not pronate early but rather flip their wrist over late

And what the heck is this pendulum swing?

Sorry for my ignorance on this topic but ive tried to go through Marshall's stuff before and it is difficult to comprehend.
I found this thread as opportunity to educate myself without having to look up words in the dictionary every three minutes

No apologies needed. I am not an expert, but I will try and explain, and I'm sure Dirtberry can clean up anything I have messed up.

Traditional pitchers cannot pronate early because they use their pectoral major muscle to sling the ball forward. Because Traditional pitchers use their pectoral major muscle to sling the ball the forward they are creating a sideways force, this sideways force causes an involuntary contraction of the bicep brachialis muscle to try and keep the bones in the elbow from banging into each other. Thus, because the bicep brachialis muscle contracts the triceps brachialis cannot contract because it is antagonistic to the biceps brachialis. The triceps brachialis is a muscle used in early pronation along with the pronator teres muscle.

Pendulum Swinging is taking the ball out of the glove with the palm of your hand under the ball. You swing it down and back towards second base and then up towards driveline height. The driveline height for Marshall pitchers is the ear. Along the way,the the palm of the pitching hand does face 3rd base, but depending on which pitch you are going to throw when it reaches driveline height and before you begin the acceleration phase the hand needs to be positioned accordingly. This pendulum swing gets rid of UCL damage because there is no forearm bounce.

[azmatsfan]

I do see powerful pronation. The film rate may not be helping you to see it

If you look at stills of him pitching he's not pronated at release. It's not until after release.