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Thread: The death of the walker

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by m8644 View Post
    Jeff Francouer is that you?

    Nope, just a baseball fan with common sense.

  2. #22
    maybe players need to learn how to take a walk:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMxMnSd9rhY
    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaz View Post
    Does anyone know if hit and run's have surged lately?

    Walks and taking pitches have been high over-valued for the last ten years so I'm glad they're going down.
    Disagree big time. Almost nothing is more exciting than watching a .450+ OBP guy. Baseball severely needs his return.
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaz View Post
    Nope, just a baseball fan with common sense.

    common sense would say that players who make less outs are usually better than players who make more outs......as would research from baseball history as to which type of teams score more runs over the course of a season.
    "all the mets road wins against the dodgers this year have occured at Dodger Stadium"---Ralph Kiner

    "Blind people came to the park just to listen to him pitch"---Reggie Jackson, talking about Tom Seaver

  5. #25
    of course walks are good. getting on base is always good. however when scoring drops everything is going down and not just walks. hits, XBH and HRs also decline as walks do.
    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    Disagree big time. Almost nothing is more exciting than watching a .450+ OBP guy. Baseball severely needs his return.
    I disagree completely. The game needs more athletes running, not more slow guys taking pitches. When guys with .400 OBP's were unemployed in February in the pre-Moneyball era, of course it was wise to pick them them up cheap. But when average players like JD Drew started getting paid $14mil per year because of their ability to watch a pitch go by without swinging, then that skill is officially over-valued.

    If a team isn't paying league minimum or if the player isn't a threat to steal then a walk is nothing more than a consolation prize to a hit.

  7. #27
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    Over a 162-game average, Lou Gehrig walked 113 times & struck out 59 times. I'd take a player like him over any of today's K-happy sluggers. The point of the game is to score runs, and if you don't get on base, you can't score runs.
    Born to an age where horror has become commonplace, where tragedy has, by its monotonous repetition, become a parody of sorrow, we need to fence off a few parks where humans try to be fair, where skill has some hope of reward, [and] where absurdity has a harder time than usual getting a ticket." -- Thomas Boswell, 1984

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaz View Post
    I disagree completely. The game needs more athletes running, not more slow guys taking pitches. When guys with .400 OBP's were unemployed in February in the pre-Moneyball era, of course it was wise to pick them them up cheap. But when average players like JD Drew started getting paid $14mil per year because of their ability to watch a pitch go by without swinging, then that skill is officially over-valued.

    If a team isn't paying league minimum or if the player isn't a threat to steal then a walk is nothing more than a consolation prize to a hit.

    Like I said, getting on base is a good thing, no matter how it's done and no matter who is doing it. Look at the teams who generally score more runs over the course of the history of baseball, tell me what they have in common and which stat they are generally near the top of the league in is.
    "all the mets road wins against the dodgers this year have occured at Dodger Stadium"---Ralph Kiner

    "Blind people came to the park just to listen to him pitch"---Reggie Jackson, talking about Tom Seaver

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
    Warren Spahn was heard to lament on his deathbed; "My only regret is that I didn't have a higher ERA+. I'm so overrated! My 363 wins are meaningless!" It was very sad.
    The thing that makes things funny, is that they are true. Many posters here probably think exactly that. After all, wins are "team dependent," LOL

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaz View Post
    I disagree completely. The game needs more athletes running, not more slow guys taking pitches. When guys with .400 OBP's were unemployed in February in the pre-Moneyball era, of course it was wise to pick them them up cheap. But when average players like JD Drew started getting paid $14mil per year because of their ability to watch a pitch go by without swinging, then that skill is officially over-valued.

    If a team isn't paying league minimum or if the player isn't a threat to steal then a walk is nothing more than a consolation prize to a hit.
    remember Milton Bradley? he was god. JD Drew is incredibly overrated.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by m8644 View Post
    Like I said, getting on base is a good thing, no matter how it's done and no matter who is doing it. Look at the teams who generally score more runs over the course of the history of baseball, tell me what they have in common and which stat they are generally near the top of the league in is.
    Walks and OBP are not the same. The Rays lead the MLB in walks in 2012 but were 16th in OBP. Without speed those walks are useless.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaz View Post
    Walks and OBP are not the same. The Rays lead the MLB in walks in 2012 but were 16th in OBP. Without speed those walks are useless.
    Their OBP was near the middle of the pack because they finished 28th in hits.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaz View Post
    Walks and OBP are not the same. The Rays lead the MLB in walks in 2012 but were 16th in OBP. Without speed those walks are useless.

    the vast majority of the time, teams who have a high OBP are also high in walks........and they are not "useless" without speed....that's an extreme view and quite faulty. Getting on base and not making outs is a very good thing...no matter what kind of runner is doing it.
    "all the mets road wins against the dodgers this year have occured at Dodger Stadium"---Ralph Kiner

    "Blind people came to the park just to listen to him pitch"---Reggie Jackson, talking about Tom Seaver

  14. #34
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    I'm a big fan of speedy runners, but I think m8644 makes a good point. The walker doesn't make an out and puts himself in position to advance on the bases and get driven in. And he doesn't look near as silly taking a walk as he does striking out.
    Born to an age where horror has become commonplace, where tragedy has, by its monotonous repetition, become a parody of sorrow, we need to fence off a few parks where humans try to be fair, where skill has some hope of reward, [and] where absurdity has a harder time than usual getting a ticket." -- Thomas Boswell, 1984

  15. #35
    A walk is better than an out but not as good as a hit.

    Can't believe that there's any disagreement about this.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by filihok View Post
    A walk is better than an out but not as good as a hit.

    Can't believe that there's any disagreement about this.
    You'd be surprised what happens when context enters the discussion.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
    You'd be surprised what happens when context enters the discussion.
    Surprise me

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaz View Post
    I disagree completely. The game needs more athletes running, not more slow guys taking pitches. When guys with .400 OBP's were unemployed in February in the pre-Moneyball era, of course it was wise to pick them them up cheap. But when average players like JD Drew started getting paid $14mil per year because of their ability to watch a pitch go by without swinging, then that skill is officially over-valued.

    If a team isn't paying league minimum or if the player isn't a threat to steal then a walk is nothing more than a consolation prize to a hit.
    Some points.

    1) J.D Drew was NOT viewed as an average player when he broke into the majors. According to Tony LaRussa, Drew was one of the most supremely gifted ballplayers he had ever seen. In fact LaRussa commented that the problem wth Dew was that the game was too easy for him and that he lacked the passion to be great, that "Drew settled for 75% of his talent".

    2) In 2001 Drew hit .313/.414./.613, 161 OPS+. After this season the expectations for Drew grew tremendously. He had another great season in 2004 and this helped Drew eventually land a free agent contract. But the problem with drew was that he was injured often and couldn't play a full season. But he still had those great 5-tool talent. Like BJ upton today, Drew was sought after because teams though he was just around the corner from beign a everyday superstar player.

    3) Drew didn't land a huge free agent contract because his walking ability was his selling point. Drew was a 5-tool player who teased everyone with his flashes or brilliance. He had a good career, hardly an average player. But many, many people expected a far greater career from Drew.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by filihok View Post
    Surprise me
    It's no surprise that a game-winning sacrifice fly is preferable to a game-extending BB, but it is kind of surprising when people use this example to argue against the relative value of walks generally.

    Or when they generalize that an RBI out with a runner on third is better than a non-RBI walk, or that a "productive out," with a man on second is better than a walk because it "moves the runner over" and avoids "clogging the basepaths."

    As for a walk beating a hit . . . . I'm guilty of that one: In a high leverage lead-off situation, the other team gets a hit, "They're going to get their hits," but if the closer starts off the ninth with a walk, that really gives me the yips. Our team starts the game with a walk, good times ahead, boys. I have no idea which really leads to more runs over the long haul, but if the batter walks when the pitcher is doing his durndest not to walk him . . . I'd much rather see a bases-empty scratch single.
    Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 12-17-2012 at 03:40 AM.

  20. #40
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    To me, it depends on who the hitter is. Sure, it's more fun to watch Ichiro beat out a single on a routine ground ball, but at age 39, that's not going to happen as often anymore, and if he's smart, which he is, he should try to be more selective at the plate.

    If the hitter is Miguel Cabrera or Josh Hamilton, I'd rather see him swing, since chances are good the result might be good for more than one base.

    But a walk is always preferable to making an out, which happens more often than a hit does.
    Shalom, y'all!
    What's the rumpus?

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