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Thread: Top Non-PED User Sluggers of the 1990's.

  1. #1

    Top Non-PED User Sluggers of the 1990's.

    There was a small "Inside Baseball" piece in this weeks SI

    It focused on Fred McGriff. Mostly pointing out how he likely won't make the HoF because he simply is forgotten due to the inflated numbers put up by steroid users.

    This is what is always forgotten in all this sites steroid debates: The players who stayed clean.

    Who are some players [particularly sluggers] you think aren't, won't, don't get their just due from this decade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky5 View Post
    There was a small "Inside Baseball" piece in this weeks SI

    It focused on Fred McGriff. Mostly pointing out how he likely won't make the HoF because he simply is forgotten due to the inflated numbers put up by steroid users.

    This is what is always forgotten in all this sites steroid debates: The players who stayed clean.

    Sorry




    Who are some players [particularly sluggers] you think aren't, won't, don't get their just due from this decade?
    I don't buy the "he did" and "he didn't " scanario. PEDs were so rampant that we really don't know. But you all can speculate, I guess.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    I don't buy the "he did" and "he didn't " scanario. PEDs were so rampant that we really don't know. But you all can speculate, I guess.
    That is the scenario. That is real life. Certainly we won't know everyone who did.

    Good honest men sit back and watch while men of lesser merits reap all the rewards. I think it would be nice if we focused on the honest ball players for once, rather than the others.

    Someone like Scott Rolen for instance would probably be more revered for hitting as many HR's as he did while playing an amazing defensive third base if there hadn't been so many users.

    Same with McGriff. He said in the late 90's people were asking him what was wrong with him. Nothing was wrong. He was just being overshadowed by steroid users. The lack of recognition may keep him out of the HoF.
    Last edited by bluesky5; 12-07-2012 at 11:02 PM. Reason: Re-wording

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    Fred is exhibit A but there are others. Rolen is a good mention. To some extent, Frank Thomas is another. He's going to make the Hall but he was still overshadowed for most of the last half of his career.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    I don't buy the "he did" and "he didn't " scanario. PEDs were so rampant that we really don't know. But you all can speculate, I guess.
    Could not agree more. You can not prove a negative so we can never know if McGriff and others did not use. We may find out some did. Or we may not.

    Forget it and move on.

    Threads like this are simply to idolize good but not great players that some posters want to hype up more.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    I don't buy the "he did" and "he didn't " scanario. PEDs were so rampant that we really don't know. But you all can speculate, I guess.
    The only non-PED players we can be sure of were those on whatever video game platform was popular at the time. And even then I have my doubts.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by NJYankeeFan View Post
    Could not agree more. You can not prove a negative so we can never know if McGriff and others did not use. We may find out some did. Or we may not.

    Forget it and move on.

    Threads like this are simply to idolize good but not great players that some posters want to hype up more.
    I don't have an agenda to hype up any individual players. I'm not creating elaborate comparison threads to pump up Dave Kingman and alike. I spend no time in the HoF forum making ridiculous claims about marginal players.

    This thread isn't to make accusations or debate guilt. I'm talking about guys who were never accused or implicated with steroid use. Steroid use sets the backdrop for the discussion but the focus is to shed some light on players who were undervalued for the time.

    I know nothing of you NJYankeeFan and I tend to agree with JR Hart on a lot of things and appreciate his bluntness. I'd like to respectfully ask you both to not bash my thread simply because you disagree with the premise.

    Maybe you could PM me and tell me a little more about myself.

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    Not sure if these guys were ever accused of anything, and they're definitely not prototypical sluggers. But they're my favorite type of player (20/20 - 30/30) because of their combination of power & speed.

    Ray Lankford
    Raul Mondesi
    Shawn Green
    Reggie Sanders

    I'm sure there are a few more but can't recall off the top of my head. One other could be Bobby Abreu, but seeing him first hand every year, he really got big all of a sudden back in '05 or '06.
    "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

  9. #9
    Robin Ventura is another guy. Gold Glove third baseman. Perennially hitting 20-30 HR's a year when healthy.

    Eric Karros and Mark Grace come to mind as well.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Grimm View Post
    Not sure if these guys were ever accused of anything, and they're definitely not prototypical sluggers. But they're my favorite type of player (20/20 - 30/30) because of their combination of power & speed.

    Ray Lankford
    Raul Mondesi
    Shawn Green
    Reggie Sanders

    I'm sure there are a few more but can't recall off the top of my head. One other could be Bobby Abreu, but seeing him first hand every year, he really got big all of a sudden back in '05 or '06.
    He sure did. He seemed to have a fairly normal decline tho.

    Ray Lankford kind of was to those 90's Cardinal teams what Bobby Murcer was to the late 60's - early 70's Yankees. Wrong time with a great franchise.

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    I thought Karros was on the Mitchell report?

    I always think Bernie Williams got the double shaft. First he played in a park with "old" dimensions. Second his numbers were compared to those of guys who could somehow hit broken bat home runs to the opposite field and played in parks with new parks with hitter friendly dimensions.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    I thought Karros was on the Mitchell report?

    I always think Bernie Williams got the double shaft. First he played in a park with "old" dimensions. Second his numbers were compared to those of guys who could somehow hit broken bat home runs to the opposite field and played in parks with new parks with hitter friendly dimensions.
    Bernie got the shaft because he really never should have been a switch hitter. He had some good yeas from the let side in his prime but it was never his natural swing and he lost it towards the end of his career.

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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky5 View Post
    I don't have an agenda to hype up any individual players. I'm not creating elaborate comparison threads to pump up Dave Kingman and alike. I spend no time in the HoF forum making ridiculous claims about marginal players.

    This thread isn't to make accusations or debate guilt. I'm talking about guys who were never accused or implicated with steroid use. Steroid use sets the backdrop for the discussion but the focus is to shed some light on players who were undervalued for the time.

    I know nothing of you NJYankeeFan and I tend to agree with JR Hart on a lot of things and appreciate his bluntness. I'd like to respectfully ask you both to not bash my thread simply because you disagree with the premise.

    Maybe you could PM me and tell me a little more about myself.
    Not trying to bash your thread. Just saying this is how these things often go. Sure there are players I suspect and players that I suspect did not.

    But when this always comes up it hypes a couple of guys that sometimes makes you sit back and laugh.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    I thought Karros was on the Mitchell report?

    I always think Bernie Williams got the double shaft. First he played in a park with "old" dimensions. Second his numbers were compared to those of guys who could somehow hit broken bat home runs to the opposite field and played in parks with new parks with hitter friendly dimensions.
    I checked the list on wiki [I know not a "great" source] and he wasn't there.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by NJYankeeFan View Post
    Not trying to bash your thread. Just saying this is how these things often go. Sure there are players I suspect and players that I suspect did not.

    But when this always comes up it hypes a couple of guys that sometimes makes you sit back and laugh.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2
    Understood

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    I don;t know id he can be considered a 'top slugger', but Moises Alou was a damn good hitter in his prime, who got almost no attention until he was the 'old guy' on the Mets late in his career. His 1998 and 2000 seasons were awesome, made even more impressive by the fact that he lost all of 1999 battling cancer.
    Kevin Mitchell is known for his great 1989 season, but his 1994 season may have been even better if not for the strike. He was second in the league in OPS+ that year to Bagwell.
    Mike Sweeney is often the brunt of critics, who say he made several all star teams just because the hapless Royals needed a representative. Lost in this is the fact that he really was a great hitter in his prime. From 1999-2002 he averaged 26 108 .324.
    Brian Giles has been all but forgotten, but from 1999-2003 he maintained a 157 OPS+, along with an average line of 34 105 .307, and a .426 On base percentage.

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    Weird thread. How can we possibly know who the non-PED users were? It is complete speculation and any player identified in this thread as a non-user...there's probably a 75% chance or better that he used PEDs.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    Weird thread. How can we possibly know who the non-PED users were? It is complete speculation and any player identified in this thread as a non-user...there's probably a 75% chance or better that he used PEDs.
    The thread is sponsored by Leonard Nimoy for the Vincent Price foundation...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    there's probably a 75% chance or better that he used PEDs.
    Scientific.
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    ben grimm: One other could be Bobby Abreu, but seeing him first hand every year, he really got big all of a sudden back in '05 or '06.

    and just how big, exactly, did marvin bernard, wally joyner and benito santiago get?
    "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by willshad View Post
    I don;t know id he can be considered a 'top slugger', but Moises Alou was a damn good hitter in his prime, who got almost no attention until he was the 'old guy' on the Mets late in his career. His 1998 and 2000 seasons were awesome, made even more impressive by the fact that he lost all of 1999 battling cancer.
    Kevin Mitchell is known for his great 1989 season, but his 1994 season may have been even better if not for the strike. He was second in the league in OPS+ that year to Bagwell.
    Mike Sweeney is often the brunt of critics, who say he made several all star teams just because the hapless Royals needed a representative. Lost in this is the fact that he really was a great hitter in his prime. From 1999-2002 he averaged 26 108 .324.
    Brian Giles has been all but forgotten, but from 1999-2003 he maintained a 157 OPS+, along with an average line of 34 105 .307, and a .426 On base percentage.
    Yea too bad he and Jason Kendall didn't come up together somewhere else.

    Giles came up with Cleveland. Too bad they didn't put it together somewhere else, I should say.
    Last edited by bluesky5; 12-10-2012 at 03:26 PM. Reason: Giles

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    bluesky5: There was a small "Inside Baseball" piece in this week's SI

    It focused on Fred McGriff. Mostly pointing out how he likely won't make the HoF because he simply is forgotten due to the inflated numbers put up by steroid users.


    this. is. ridiculous.
    and irresponsible.
    sports illustrated oughtta know better than to play fast and loose.
    "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

  23. #23
    Frank Thomas. His brilliant run from 1991-1997 is sometimes underrated these days due to the massive numbers later put up by Mcgwire and especially Bonds. At the time he was often called the right-handed Ted Williams, and hell even Bill James said it was possible he could go down as the third greatest hitter ever after Ruth and Williams. Once Mcgwire and Bonds started posting off the charts numbers, Thomas's run from 1991-1997 seemed forgotten by many. His pretty mediocre decline phase didn't help either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenrir View Post
    Frank Thomas. His brilliant run from 1991-1997 is sometimes underrated these days due to the massive numbers later put up by Mcgwire and especially Bonds. At the time he was often called the right-handed Ted Williams, and hell even Bill James said it was possible he could go down as the third greatest hitter ever after Ruth and Williams. Once Mcgwire and Bonds started posting off the charts numbers, Thomas's run from 1991-1997 seemed forgotten by many. His pretty mediocre decline phase didn't help either.
    His "mediocre" decline wouldn't look so "mediocre" had he decided to juice. Thomas will be remember by most as a legit HOFer and one of the very best hitters in his era.
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    I hope so. Right now, I think he's still a little overshadowed. Maybe if steroid apologists ever start to face facts we can put him in proper perspective.
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