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Thread: Top Non-PED User Sluggers of the 1990's.

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    You exaggerated what I would have said, but for the most part you are correct. I don't care about 9 or 10 seasons over 150, that's nothing insanely rare. Show me seven straight seasons at 174 or more and then we'll talk. Thome's peak was nothing elite at all, then he does 197. Nearly every player mentioned above was more elite than Thome and are ranked higher than him. He was the quietest 600 club member ever, and will remain that way, unless Dunn finds a way there in five years. He doesn't impress me much.
    So we are talking about steroid use though. Do you think he juiced up for one or two seasons, '01 and '02 and then stopped?

    I think that what we see in '03 was a guy who just came up a little more from '02 but at that point he was approaching a level where the meaning of OPS+ starts to get obscure. He struck out a little less, hit a few more home runs, and then he got pitched around more, intentionally and semi-intentionally walked more.

    I always felt for example that had Barry Bonds say in '01-'04 not been walked so much, his raw stats would have gone up because of more at bats, but his rates would have ALL dropped, maybe to .325/.500/.750 which would have dropped his 4 year OPS+ from 256 to about 225. When you get to a certain level the pitchers' approaches tend to raise OPS+ though they might actually reduce damage.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by brett View Post
    So we are talking about steroid use though. Do you think he juiced up for one or two seasons, '01 and '02 and then stopped?

    I think that what we see in '03 was a guy who just came up a little more from '02 but at that point he was approaching a level where the meaning of OPS+ starts to get obscure. He struck out a little less, hit a few more home runs, and then he got pitched around more, intentionally and semi-intentionally walked more.

    I always felt for example that had Barry Bonds say in '01-'04 not been walked so much, his raw stats would have gone up because of more at bats, but his rates would have ALL dropped, maybe to .325/.500/.750 which would have dropped his 4 year OPS+ from 256 to about 225. When you get to a certain level the pitchers' approaches tend to raise OPS+ though they might actually reduce damage.
    I don't think there is ny doubt about that. Yes stats based on cumulative numbers up but percentage based stats go down.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    5,645
    Quote Originally Posted by brett View Post
    So we are talking about steroid use though. Do you think he juiced up for one or two seasons, '01 and '02 and then stopped?

    I think that what we see in '03 was a guy who just came up a little more from '02 but at that point he was approaching a level where the meaning of OPS+ starts to get obscure. He struck out a little less, hit a few more home runs, and then he got pitched around more, intentionally and semi-intentionally walked more.

    I always felt for example that had Barry Bonds say in '01-'04 not been walked so much, his raw stats would have gone up because of more at bats, but his rates would have ALL dropped, maybe to .325/.500/.750 which would have dropped his 4 year OPS+ from 256 to about 225. When you get to a certain level the pitchers' approaches tend to raise OPS+ though they might actually reduce damage.
    Well, I just think it was suspicious, I'm certainly not saying I think he used for sure. If he did, some players bodies react differently. Did Brady Anderson use for just a year? He only had one monster season. Or did his body just adjust the steroids and make him his normal self again? Who knows, maybe Brady really didn't use at all. Maris didn't use, and his 1961 came out of nowhere (of course, expansion helped and so did Mantle's protection).

    I agree with you on Bonds, although I think the slugging would be higher than .750. Without all those intention and unintentional walks, he probably hits 65-75 home runs for four years in a row. I think the BA would be a bit higher too, maybe .335.
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    I'm surprised that pre-steroid Bonds didn't make the list here. Bonds was huge from 1990-1998(181 OPS+).

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