The MVP and the HOF

[yankillaz]

Dizzy Dean got help from being Dizzy Dean. He was baseball's most famous personality not named Babe Ruth. The awards were an after thought, not the root cause.

True, but he was going to be in the HOF without the MVP?

And were people actually raving about Jim Rice in 1990? People did talk about George Foster, but only because he was the last to hit 50 before Fielder.

Trust me, people raved about Jim Rice's monster season in '78. Puzzling, since he only one year retired.

You can still go to a game and talk about a player being a HOFer. We do at games and we even do that here. But a personal belief does not necessarily mean it's going to happen. Steve Garvey certainly was thought of as a HOFer. Then you actually looked at what he did compared to so many others as well as those who actually were HOFers and maybe he didn't deserve all those accolades. I'm not even going to go into the clean cut all-american image. He really wasn't as good a hitter as Rod Carew or Eddie Murray. He wasn't the slick fielder Keith Hernandez was. Reality did not measure up to image, and, thankfully, for once it was figured out.

I'm not saying for this when we go to the place and see a player, think inmediately he's going to be a HOFer. That way I can say Trout is playing like a HOFer. No, what I think JRHart is saying, and I agree, is that when you see a player's career unfold and you've been following the MLB through out his whole career you could say: He's a Hall of Famer.

Best examples in my time: (Taking out all the PED guys.)

Don Mattingly. Alan Trammell. Jack Morris. Fred McGriff. Bernie Williams. Larry Walker. Albert Belle (I know, the PED thing. But if Rice is in, why not him?)

[Captain Cold Nose]

I'm not saying for this when we go to the place and see a player, think inmediately he's going to be a HOFer. That way I can say Trout is playing like a HOFer. No, what I think JRHart is saying, and I agree, is that when you see a player's career unfold and you've been following the MLB through out his whole career you could say: He's a Hall of Famer.

Best examples in my time: (Taking out all the PED guys.)

Don Mattingly. Alan Trammell. Jack Morris. Fred McGriff. Bernie Williams. Larry Walker. Albert Belle (I know, the PED thing. But if Rice is in, why not him?)

Are you saying people thought the above were talked about as HOF'ers while playing? I'm from Detroit and we may have said Trammell and Morris may have had shots eventually, nobody short of Sparky Anderson was endorsing their candidacies fully during their careers, from my vantage point. Hell, I was delighted when Bill James listed Trammell and Lou Whitaker as making the HOF years from when he wrote about it, and only after a long list of players ahead of them. The magazines that talked about it at the time sure never gave them that much. Of the players you listed, only Don Mattingly was truly given superstar status during his playing days. But that's just as I remembered it. Individual perception plays so much into this.

[abolishthedh]

Regarding Garvey, I agree that he doesn't belong and that this shows how perspectives change. FWIW, his hitting was accomplished in Dodger Stadium, and this makes him an even better hitter in hindsight. However, he wasn't a good fielder and he was terrible in the clubhouse, at least with the Dodgers. He didn't have the longevity either.

Another player who was considered a shoo-in during his playing days: Dave Parker. He received all the pub, and a player with identical talents, Dave Winfield, had to move to New York to be recognized. Parker had two batting titles in 1977 and 1978, and won the MVP in 1978.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Regarding Garvey, I agree that he doesn't belong and that this shows how perspectives change. FWIW, his hitting was accomplished in Dodger Stadium, and this makes him an even better hitter in hindsight. However, he wasn't a good fielder and he was terrible in the clubhouse, at least with the Dodgers. He didn't have the longevity either.

Another player who was considered a shoo-in during his playing days: Dave Parker. He received all the pub, and a player with identical talents, Dave Winfield, had to move to New York to be recognized. Parker had two batting titles in 1977 and 1978, and won the MVP in 1978.

Parker being implicated in the cocaine scandal in the early 80's killed the press hype. Even doing well in Cincinnati and as a DH in the A.L. didn't come close to putting him back in the headlines for what he was doing as a player.