What If? (Barry Bonds)

[Ben Grimm]

Most fans I know personally don't like Bonds for one reason or another. Many never have because of his aloofness, rudeness, cockiness or what have you. Pretty much all of them dislike him because he owns two of the most recognized records in profession sports.

What if (and I saw this mentiioned on another site but can't remember where)...

20 of his HRs in 2001 were doubles? As it ends up, he wouldn't hold the single season record for HRs (he'd have 53) nor the career mark (he'd have 742 - 13 shy of Aaron's record).

I wonder how many people would accept him a bit more had he not broken both records. I myself don't count because I actually like Bonds and found him caught up in a circumstance of egomania that tarnished (to say the least) of what would otherwise have been an easy HOF career.

But I asked a few of my friends last night and for the most part they changed from "hating the player" to simply "ehhhh still wouldn't like him much". I know baseball fans are tied to these records and that's part of the romance of the game. But if you really dislike Bonds (I don't like using the word hate because it sounds too personal), would you feel less animosity?

[bluesky5]

I dislike the fact that he and others [Sosa, McGwire, etc.] used performance enhancing drugs. No I wouldn't feel any less animosity if he hit less HR. I'd respect him more if he just came out and said yea I did PED's and I am or am not sorry for it and this is why.

I appreciate the fact that he didn't try to "market" himself by putting up a facade like Sosa with his sprinting to RF, the "Sammy hop" his little kiss, kiss, chest bump thank you God act. McGwire with his still friends with my ex-wife, Big Mac Mcdonalds, all-american nice guy charade. Then he and Sosa's quasi-homosexual encounters on the middle of the diamond when the record was broke. Pre-planned of course to market their cheap, unfairly accomplished, ill gotten gains to maximize profits off of [among others] impressionable young ten year olds such as myself.

I think he should make the HoF unlike Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro because of his pre-PED resume.

I also think MLB is lucky it still has fans after that crap it pulled.

[Ben Grimm]

I
I also think MLB is lucky it still has fans after that crap it pulled.

Really? The fans (and I include myself) were part of it.

[bluesky5]

Really? The fans (and I include myself) were part of it.

So was I. Not sure what ya mean?

[chicagowhitesox1173]

I gotta admit it was pretty sickening watching Sosa and McGwire that year. So in a strange way I kinda respect Bonds for showing them that if they are going to cheat then i'm going to show you hows its done and he really blew them away when he used. Although I deff would have respected Bonds alot more had he not used.

I still look at Maris and Aaron as the homerun leaders

[bluesky5]

Really? The fans (and I include myself) were part of it.

I should have said casual fans. Being that the sport was mired by dishonesty in the wake of Sosa, McGwire then Bonds and especially after the McGwire, Palmeiro court debacle. It isn't like after 1919 because there are a lot more athletic options today, both to play and to watch.

[Zoltan]

I gotta admit it was pretty sickening watching Sosa and McGwire that year. So in a strange way I kinda respect Bonds for showing them that if they are going to cheat then i'm going to show you hows its done and he really blew them away when he used. Although I deff would have respected Bonds alot more had he not used.

I still look at Maris and Aaron as the homerun leaders

What I find so facinating about Bonds is, that he did absolutly every thing he could to be the best player ever. I dont think he was the first to get on the juice, lots of other people were doing it, well he was going to get on the juice too. Sure, the opinion might be different about him if he didnt break both home run records, but probably not by much. Based on what ive seen of Barry Bonds, I dont think he cares a whole lot about what people think. He did what he had to do, and I doubt he regrets any of it.

[ol' aches and pains]

What I find so facinating about Bonds is, that he did absolutly every thing he could to be the best player ever. I dont think he was the first to get on the juice, lots of other people were doing it, well he was going to get on the juice too. Sure, the opinion might be different about him if he didnt break both home run records, but probably not by much. Based on what ive seen of Barry Bonds, I dont think he cares a whole lot about what people think. He did what he had to do, and I doubt he regrets any of it.

He didn't "have to" do anything. He didn't have to worry about losing his place in the lineup, or his job in MLB. He was a shoo-in first ballot hall-of-famer. That apparently wasn't enough for him.

[StanTheMan]

Lots of people were doing it...

so he had to do it
did what he had to do
was allowed/justified/etc in doing it
and so on...

Is astonishingly shortsided and beyond ridiculous. But to those that believe the above or are at peace with it, The players that chose NOT to cheat, was there something wrong with them that forced them into that decision? A lack of something?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

What I find so facinating about Bonds is, that he did absolutly every thing he could to be the best player ever. I dont think he was the first to get on the juice, lots of other people were doing it, well he was going to get on the juice too. Sure, the opinion might be different about him if he didnt break both home run records, but probably not by much. Based on what ive seen of Barry Bonds, I dont think he cares a whole lot about what people think. He did what he had to do, and I doubt he regrets any of it.

I can't prove it, but I think he does mind the fact that some question some of his numbers because he used.

He has an ego like most superstars. He want so accepted as good or great as any other player and not have some of his numbers in question.
There was more than a few times some years back when he goit a bit hot under the collar when some mentioned using PED's.
I think it's just an act that........................ I really don't care attitude.

[GiambiJuice]

I know most fans disagree but I consider Barry Bonds the true HR King both for a single season and a career. I couldn't care less if he used steroids. It's what he had to do in order to compete in an environment where to say steroids were rampant would be a tremendous understatement.

[Zoltan]

I know most fans disagree but I consider Barry Bonds the true HR King both for a single season and a career. I couldn't care less if he used steroids. It's what he had to do in order to compete in an environment where to say steroids were rampant would be a tremendous understatement.

Yeah I agree. Thats the point I was trying to get across.

[ol' aches and pains]

I know most fans disagree but I consider Barry Bonds the true HR King both for a single season and a career. I couldn't care less if he used steroids. It's what he had to do in order to compete in an environment where to say steroids were rampant would be a tremendous understatement.

The consensus around here seems to be that Bonds was a sure-fire, can't miss first ballot Hall-of-Famer before he ever used PED's, so I really don't follow this logic that "he did what he had to do". What if he hadn't? He would have sailed into the Hall Of Fame with no controversy.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I know most fans disagree but I consider Barry Bonds the true HR King both for a single season and a career. I couldn't care less if he used steroids. It's what he had to do in order to compete in an environment where to say steroids were rampant would be a tremendous understatement.

Oh really, what is this, the old "ghetto defense' we see in criminal trials....................hey look at the neighborhood I'm living in.........my surroundings....I'm more like a victim, cut me some slack.
Come on, we keep hearing about others using.

Your missing the point, what about those not using having to compete with users.

Using your logic, everyone should be using, how come not all use, how is it fair to them.

[west coast orange and black]

^
everyone oughtta be using something. and nearly all do.
and the differences between lots of legal substances and lots of illegal ones are actually not all that great.
one of the key differences, though, are the harmful effects from prolonged use without guidance from a physician.

[fenrir]

Truth be told, I dislike guys like Clemens and Sosa more than Bonds, both of which have always come across to me as incredibly phony. In Clemens case, it was annoying to see ESPN fawn over him every time there was doubt about whether or not he was going to retire. Not to mention that Clemens threw his own wife under the bus. Doesn't get any worse then that, IMO.

Bonds made his own bed by acting like a prick, and he knows that. But I'll give him credit for at least being upfront about it compared to someone like Sosa who hid behind a phony smile, when in reality he was a wife assaulting prick.

[Steven Gallanter]

Oh really, what is this, the old "ghetto defense' we see in criminal trials....................hey look at the neighborhood I'm living in.........my surroundings....I'm more like a victim, cut me some slack.
Come on, we keep hearing about others using.

Your missing the point, what about those not using having to compete with users.

Using your logic, everyone should be using, how come not all use, how is it fair to them.

It is a source of continuing oddity to me that so many folks seem to readily accept the efficacy of so-called PEDs. I don't think that non-users had a significant handicap.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

It is a source of continuing oddity to me that so many folks seem to readily accept the efficacy of so-called PEDs. I don't think that non-users had a significant handicap.

Thats something that can't be measured Steve.
I would think that it has different effects on different athletes.
Whats the difference what the level of advantage the user has over the non user.
We know what the intent is, to boost performance, some benefit more than others.
A clean Barry is better than most users.

Unfortunate, the choice to use, no matter where one stands on athletes that use, using puts doubt in some of their performance.
Had Barry not used, even with lower numbers he would probably rank higher on the list of all time greats.
Same with Roger, he may have won the court battle, more difficult to prove he used.
He and Barry were great players long before using, assuming they were not users early in career, I doubt that.

[ol' aches and pains]

...Bonds made his own bed by acting like a prick, and he knows that...

I don't think it's an act.

[StanTheMan]

It is a source of continuing oddity to me that so many folks seem to readily accept the efficacy of so-called PEDs. I don't think that non-users had a significant handicap.

The number of historic home run seasons staining the PED era suggests otherwise to me. PED users who were already good hitters received a tremendous boost in my opinion. Take the 50 HR threshold for example. I dont have the numbers in frot of me, but that mark was surpassed more times in about 7 years of rampant PED use than in the previous SEVENTY.

Yet it stopped - suddenly. Why?

More teams/players, watered down pitching? Nope, we have that now and 50 is now rare
Smaller ballparks then? Nope, playing in many of the same parks now with some teams in more homer friendly parks at this point.
Strategy change? Small ball trend now vs then? No.
More knowledgeable phsyical fitness medical staff? No, we have that now, 50 is rare.

Although PED's weren't the only reason, they certainly stand out as the biggest reason for the most ridiculous HR explosion the game has ever seen. These men outperformed all players from the previous 70 years, COMBINED.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

The number of historic home run seasons staining the PED era suggests otherwise to me. PED users who were already good hitters received a tremendous boost in my opinion. Take the 50 HR threshold for example. I dont have the numbers in frot of me, but that mark was surpassed more times in about 7 years of rampant PED use than in the previous SEVENTY.

Yet it stopped - suddenly. Why?

More teams/players, watered down pitching? Nope, we have that now and 50 is now rare
Smaller ballparks then? Nope, playing in many of the same parks now with some teams in more homer friendly parks at this point.
Strategy change? Small ball trend now vs then? No.
More knowledgeable phsyical fitness medical staff? No, we have that now, 50 is rare.

Although PED's weren't the only reason, they certainly stand out as the biggest reason for the most ridiculous HR explosion the game has ever seen. These men outperformed all players from the previous 70 years, COMBINED.

What I do try to get across to some others.
Although I do look down on PED use, never did I say it was the only reason for the explosion in home runs, by totals or home run frequency.
But just common sense, it did play a part, if your bigger and stronger, on average the result could mean more long balls hit.

Now what has to be considered, the pitching, the parks, pitching strategy, suspect ball, some expansion in the 1990's.......all are available to all hitters. But PED use, obviously only the users can gain an advantage.

[ol' aches and pains]

It is a source of continuing oddity to me that so many folks seem to readily accept the efficacy of so-called PEDs. I don't think that non-users had a significant handicap.

Well, think what you like, but the last player to hit 60 home runs in a season without PEDs was Roger Maris, so I beg to differ.

[StanTheMan]

Sometimes McGwire's 70, Sosa's 66 then 63 and Bonds' 73 dont tell enough of the story. After all, they are only three men, and known users who obviously flourished while on various PED's. Here are the raw numbers and names illustrating my point from earlier.

Throughout 75 seasons, beginning with Ruth in 1920 - the 50 HR Club included just 10 men. From 1995 to 2002, We saw NINETEEN 50+ Homer seasons. Nineteen in seven years. The overwhelming majority of those 19 50+ seasons were put up by known users. It happened, and in hindsight, it sucks.

Was it the Ballparks? Pitching and expansion? Strategy? The ball? We have all that NOW, yet the 50 HR Club is now adding members at a pace on par with the first 75 seasons I mentioned.

In the last 10 seasons (2003 to 2012) only 6 men have done it. The parks today are very similar, if not the exact same parks that the PED users played in, pitching is no more watered down now that it was in the recent past, if anything it might be at a slightly higher level as foreign pitchers are more common now than in the PED era, but is that the main reason six of the last ten seasons resulted in zero players reach 50? When we just completed a stretch of 19 in 7? I'll never buy that or any other reason other than PED use was out of control while 50 was surpassed 19 times during what amounts to a blink of an eye relative to the long, storied history of the big fly. PED's really do help, and they help hitters more than pitchers, or at least there are so many pitchers that hitters were going to have the advantage big time whether half the pichers used, or 30% or 15%.

Another perspective... Take out A-Rods 54 in 2007, and in the most recent 10 seasons players put up 50+ HR seasons at the same rate as did Mays, Mantle and Maris from 1955 to 1965. This era adds in an entire different set of variables (parks, diversity, pitching, perhaps the ball, etc) and is not intended to compare the two era's -- merely offer some perspective on 50+ HR frequency.

[DownUnderDodger]

I don't like him because I was at AT&T Park hoping he would hit the record and he did not hit a HR that night!!
Really I didn't dislike him that much because he was doing what a lot of others were doing at the time.

[White Knight]

Sometimes McGwire's 70, Sosa's 66 then 63 and Bonds' 73 dont tell enough of the story. After all, they are only three men, and known users who obviously flourished while on various PED's. Here are the raw numbers and names illustrating my point from earlier.

Throughout 75 seasons, beginning with Ruth in 1920 - the 50 HR Club included just 10 men. From 1995 to 2002, We saw NINETEEN 50+ Homer seasons. Nineteen in seven years. The overwhelming majority of those 19 50+ seasons were put up by known users. It happened, and in hindsight, it sucks.

Was it the Ballparks? Pitching and expansion? Strategy? The ball? We have all that NOW, yet the 50 HR Club is now adding members at a pace on par with the first 75 seasons I mentioned.

In the last 10 seasons (2003 to 2012) only 6 men have done it. The parks today are very similar, if not the exact same parks that the PED users played in, pitching is no more watered down now that it was in the recent past, if anything it might be at a slightly higher level as foreign pitchers are more common now than in the PED era, but is that the main reason six of the last ten seasons resulted in zero players reach 50? When we just completed a stretch of 19 in 7? I'll never buy that or any other reason other than PED use was out of control while 50 was surpassed 19 times during what amounts to a blink of an eye relative to the long, storied history of the big fly. PED's really do help, and they help hitters more than pitchers, or at least there are so many pitchers that hitters were going to have the advantage big time whether half the pichers used, or 30% or 15%.

Another perspective... Take out A-Rods 54 in 2007, and in the most recent 10 seasons players put up 50+ HR seasons at the same rate as did Mays, Mantle and Maris from 1955 to 1965. This era adds in an entire different set of variables (parks, diversity, pitching, perhaps the ball, etc) and is not intended to compare the two era's -- merely offer some perspective on 50+ HR frequency.

How is 6 in the last 10 years on par with 10 over 75 seasons? That would be about 46 averaged over 75 years.