First woman MLB player - when?

[ipitch]

I think I found your left fielder. Don't know if she can hit, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rovdi...yer_detailpage

You know that's fake, right?

[clayadams]

Surprised to see this thread come back to life. Looks like it may happen every few months or so.

Personally, I wished more girls would play "with the boys". I have a feeling my daughter will have no issues going far in softball, and it's because of baseball. My girl is 9 and plays travel and rec baseball, and just started playing rec softball this year. Her best friend is playing softball so she decided to give it a go so she could hang out with her friend more. She's playing in LL Minors, 9 and 10yo, right in her age category. In softball, she's playing 12u. I never realized just how different girls sports were to boys. The girls softball is just off the charts "bad" compared to baseball. I could take a whole team of "C" rated 9yo rec baseball players and beat most all of the 12u girls teams. With that said, I don't believe it's the athleticism of the girls that are suffering. I believe it's more to do with them being coddled. Less is expected of them, so less is given. Most of the girls are near terrified of throwing with my daughter. She's batting perfect so far this year. I don't think my daughter is some perfect specimen of God given athleticism. Instead, she's simply been playing with the boys. She's driven to be the best, and if the competition level is yea high, that's where she strives to be. Baseball is why she's so good.

Sooo, my point being, until girls are regularly playing baseball, I don't think we'll even see a hint of a female player making it. I do believe it's physically possible, just highly improbable. That perfect female specimen may be out there, but she's being coddled with a bunch of other girls, not being pushed to be what she's capable of. Now, don't get me wrong, I know there are some girls' travel teams (softball) that are hardcore. Thing is, they're few and far between compared to how many girls are playing the game. Even then I don't know that the same bar is set.

Enough yapping. That's my worthless opinion on the subject. I'm still banking on a knuckleball pitcher being the most likely scenario.

[ol' aches and pains]

You know that's fake, right?

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that it was on the level. But after pheasant's "left fielder" post, it was too good to pass up.

[toomanyhatz]

I'm still banking on a knuckleball pitcher being the most likely scenario.

As the thread starter (thrilled that it keeps getting revived- that certainly isn't happening with any of my other threads!) I have to say I agree with this.

Either that or a junkballer capable of mixing speeds and hitting corners. I don't think we'll get a woman that can reach the 90s with her fastball, but I can see a Jamie Moyer type. It will almost certainly be a pitcher if it happens.

[chasfh]

The first step to a lady making the major leagues is not only that she has to play baseball with boys for her entire childhood "career", but she will have to be THE best player, without exception, in her high school league, the same as any guy earmarked for major league success would have to.

That's the very first step—nobody makes the major leagues who doesn't utterly dominate the competition as children. Anything less than this, and any trip to the majors for a lady will seem like nothing but affirmative action run amok. Because nobody who is merely competent in high school baseball is ever going to make it in the Bigs.

Whether she then works her way up through the minors, or she continues on to dominate the competition in college, either one would work. But the first step is dominate her competition in high school. That's a non-starter for a lady to make the bigs.

[chasfh]

Yeah, someone who would stack up against all those physically superior men like the Dick Schofields, David Ecksteins, Aaron Miles, and Mark Ellis' in MLB. Those guys are HUGE!

I don't know whether this is where you are coming from, but I have heard some people I have discussed this with in past years refer specifically to David Eckstein as an example that women could play baseball because if a guy his size could do it, then why couldn't a woman that size? But I think that people who argue this severely underestimate the athleticism of major league ballplayers.

David Eckstein is 5'6" and 175 lbs. The guy is built like a freaking tank. He took advantage of his natural physiology to build up his upper body strength to the degree that he could take collisions from major league ballplayers and still come out standing. He worked his ass off to build up the requisite strength and athleticism to compete with the speed, power and agility needed to perform at the very highest level of the game.

Same with Jose Altuve. He's only 5'5", but he is also 175 lbs., and his story is the same as Eckstein's. I'm 6' flat and 175 lbs., but I am certain Jost Altuve could beat the hell out of me in a fight because his body is packed way tighter than mine is. It is a function of his natural male physiology and his hard work optimizing it, not just his size.

Could a woman build herself up the same way as Eckstein and Altuve and because just as strong, just as tightly packed a package to play major league baseball? She would have to be a special freak of nature, because the natural physiology of women cuts against that idea. In the spirit of "anything is possible", I suppose it's possible. But I am having trouble picturing exactly how that would work.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I don't know whether this is where you are coming from, but I have heard some people I have discussed this with in past years refer specifically to David Eckstein as an example that women could play baseball because if a guy his size could do it, then why couldn't a woman that size? But I think that people who argue this severely underestimate the athleticism of major league ballplayers.

David Eckstein is 5'6" and 175 lbs. The guy is built like a freaking tank. He took advantage of his natural physiology to build up his upper body strength to the degree that he could take collisions from major league ballplayers and still come out standing. He worked his ass off to build up the requisite strength and athleticism to compete with the speed, power and agility needed to perform at the very highest level of the game.

Same with Jose Altuve. He's only 5'5", but he is also 175 lbs., and his story is the same as Eckstein's. I'm 6' flat and 175 lbs., but I am certain Jost Altuve could beat the hell out of me in a fight because his body is packed way tighter than mine is. It is a function of his natural male physiology and his hard work optimizing it, not just his size.

Could a woman build herself up the same way as Eckstein and Altuve and because just as strong, just as tightly packed a package to play major league baseball? She would have to be a special freak of nature, because the natural physiology of women cuts against that idea. In the spirit of "anything is possible", I suppose it's possible. But I am having trouble picturing exactly how that would work.

Earlier in this thread I talked about Jessica Ennis. She's listed at 5'6", 130 lbs. The smallest player I could find in modern times is Freddie Patek who is listed at 5"5", 148 lbs. I have no doubt Ennis could easily outrun Patek but Patek would have a huge advantage in upper body strength. The odds of a female overcoming this huge gap in strength is very low IMO.

[clayadams]

Earlier in this thread I talked about Jessica Ennis. She's listed at 5'6", 130 lbs. The smallest player I could find in modern times is Freddie Patek who is listed at 5"5", 148 lbs. I have no doubt Ennis could easily outrun Patek but Patek would have a huge advantage in upper body strength. The odds of a female overcoming this huge gap in strength is very low IMO.

I agree for the most part. At the same time though, I don't think Ennis trains for upper body strength, so it's not a full apples to apples. I don't know that there will be a true apples to apples until girls start playing baseball with the boys and taking it even more seriously than they do.

Using my own kid as an example, I just don't see girls taking this sport as seriously as boys do. (Forgive me if I've already said this, I'm not going back to read everything again.) At an early age, I think girls are simply treated differently. While I know pre-teen athleticism doesn't mean much, I've just been floored at the difference that's recently come to my knowledge. Until this season, my daughter had only played baseball with the boys. She bats, runs, throws, spits, grunts (ok, maybe that's an exaggeration)...everything, like the boys do. Then, this season, she finally agreed to play some softball with her friend. Now, my girl is 9. The rec league softball team is 12u. I was floored. It was almost like stepping back to t-ball. Ok, so there are some girls that have never played before. But, there are girls out there that have been doing this since they were 5. All I can say is, girls just seem to be coddled to me. I know there are tough travel teams, but as a whole, girls simply aren't taught like the boys are. My daughter is having fun playing with her friends, but it's just fun. I'm even happy to say that the 14u team coach has also asked me if she can be a fill in player for his team. I give some of her talent to God given genes, but the rest is simply because she's been playing at the boys' level from the start. I hope she'll be able to keep playing as long as she wants to.

My point is much along the lines of what chasfh said. Girls will have to play with the boys from the start and be better than them. It's so unlikely though because, from the start, girls just aren't taught to be as competitive as the boys are. If it's going to happen, I think this will only happen as a pitcher. Whether conventional or knuckleball, you don't have to have blazing speed to be a damn good pitcher. You've just gotta have command of several pitches. I do believe that's possible for a girl to do. Until things change at the lowest levels though, I don't think we'll see too many girls giving it a shot.

I definitely enjoy the discussion though.

[Herr28]

I don't know whether this is where you are coming from, but I have heard some people I have discussed this with in past years refer specifically to David Eckstein as an example that women could play baseball because if a guy his size could do it, then why couldn't a woman that size? But I think that people who argue this severely underestimate the athleticism of major league ballplayers.

David Eckstein is 5'6" and 175 lbs. The guy is built like a freaking tank. He took advantage of his natural physiology to build up his upper body strength to the degree that he could take collisions from major league ballplayers and still come out standing. He worked his ass off to build up the requisite strength and athleticism to compete with the speed, power and agility needed to perform at the very highest level of the game.

Same with Jose Altuve. He's only 5'5", but he is also 175 lbs., and his story is the same as Eckstein's. I'm 6' flat and 175 lbs., but I am certain Jost Altuve could beat the hell out of me in a fight because his body is packed way tighter than mine is. It is a function of his natural male physiology and his hard work optimizing it, not just his size.

Could a woman build herself up the same way as Eckstein and Altuve and because just as strong, just as tightly packed a package to play major league baseball? She would have to be a special freak of nature, because the natural physiology of women cuts against that idea. In the spirit of "anything is possible", I suppose it's possible. But I am having trouble picturing exactly how that would work.

I agree with everything you said abut both Eck and Altuve. I loved watching the little guy tear up teams while with my Redbirds, and I spent quite a few games in Houston watching Altuve do the same. Yes, they are very strong and talented athletes. It was more a ridiculous comment about how far superior in size that male athletes are. While in the Army in Afghanistan back in 2008-2009, I saw a female soldier from Lithuania and she would out lift all the US soldier males in the gym at various times. She was huge and in great shape! She is not the norm, I get it, and her size and strength may very well not translate into the skills necessary to play baseball, I get it. However, I am just saying that there are women athletes out there, known by many or not, that can compete in strength and size with many male athletes. In no way was I trying to knock guys like those I mentioned because of their small stature. Eckstein played like a 7 foot tall giant in the 2006 World Series!

[tg643]

I agree for the most part. At the same time though, I don't think Ennis trains for upper body strength, so it's not a full apples to apples. I don't know that there will be a true apples to apples until girls start playing baseball with the boys and taking it even more seriously than they do.

Using my own kid as an example, I just don't see girls taking this sport as seriously as boys do. (Forgive me if I've already said this, I'm not going back to read everything again.) At an early age, I think girls are simply treated differently. While I know pre-teen athleticism doesn't mean much, I've just been floored at the difference that's recently come to my knowledge. Until this season, my daughter had only played baseball with the boys. She bats, runs, throws, spits, grunts (ok, maybe that's an exaggeration)...everything, like the boys do. Then, this season, she finally agreed to play some softball with her friend. Now, my girl is 9. The rec league softball team is 12u. I was floored. It was almost like stepping back to t-ball. Ok, so there are some girls that have never played before. But, there are girls out there that have been doing this since they were 5. All I can say is, girls just seem to be coddled to me. I know there are tough travel teams, but as a whole, girls simply aren't taught like the boys are. My daughter is having fun playing with her friends, but it's just fun. I'm even happy to say that the 14u team coach has also asked me if she can be a fill in player for his team. I give some of her talent to God given genes, but the rest is simply because she's been playing at the boys' level from the start. I hope she'll be able to keep playing as long as she wants to.

My point is much along the lines of what chasfh said. Girls will have to play with the boys from the start and be better than them. It's so unlikely though because, from the start, girls just aren't taught to be as competitive as the boys are. If it's going to happen, I think this will only happen as a pitcher. Whether conventional or knuckleball, you don't have to have blazing speed to be a damn good pitcher. You've just gotta have command of several pitches. I do believe that's possible for a girl to do. Until things change at the lowest levels though, I don't think we'll see too many girls giving it a shot.

I definitely enjoy the discussion though.

My daughter played college softball. They train hard all fall on upper body strength. My daughter had swimming every morning and weightlifting and agility training six days a week. Women just don't have the same physical potential as men.

She started playing 12U travel softball at age eleven. It was as competitive as any level of boys baseball I've seen. She played 16U at fourteen and 18U at fifteen. At the level she played (ASA Gold) I never saw a girl shrug off losing.

[clayadams]

My daughter played college softball. They train hard all fall on upper body strength. My daughter had swimming every morning and weightlifting and agility training six days a week. Women just don't have the same physical potential as men.

She started playing 12U travel softball at age eleven. It was as competitive as any level of boys baseball I've seen. She played 16U at fourteen and 18U at fifteen. At the level she played (ASA Gold) I never saw a girl shrug off losing.

And I did point out that I've seen some girls at the travel level that are pretty tough. My daughter practiced last year, as an 8yo, with one of the top A level 10u teams in the state. My point was that it is rare, while the boys are just FAR more aggressive from the start, even in rec league. All girls have to play like that from the start.

I think we agree, for the most part TG. It is HIGHLY unlikely that a girl could ever make it. However, the point we disagree on is that I believe there are female "specimens" out there that could do it. Rare as they are, I think there are diamonds yet to be found. Since girls are taught differently from the start, even the diamond won't shine though.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2013/5/10/4318534/the-rotation-will-women-ever-play-in-the-majors

[clayadams]

http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2013/5/1...-in-the-majors

Great thoughts there. Most of it said what I've said here too. I don't really think the last opinion about women in soccer vs men should be a consideration though. Baseball is one of the few sports where pure athleticism isn't the end all be all of considerations. Soccer, football, basketball, I agree... never happen.

I'll say it a thousand times, it's VERY possible that a knuckleballer could do it. My friend, now playing AA ball for the Oriole's org (and doing well) proves that there are teams looking to develop knucklers. All it took was one phone call to the Oriole's GM from a friend of said GM, and he was being looked at the next day. The Orioles org now have 3 knucklers in AA. He's a big powerful guy, but his fastest fastball is low to mid 80's. His knuckle is friggin' awesome though.

[Zito75]

I just don't see it happening ever, simply because scouts are spending their time watching "the other" games. As I recall, that Japanese girl got lit up in the Golden League a couple years ago. Granted, that was more of a publicity stunt - still - we're talking apples and oranges here.

[wes_kahn]

There was a 13-year old knuckleballer who learned from Joe Niekro before he passed away. She pitched two perfect games in Little League, one of which came in all-star competition. She had a 65-mph fastball at 13, and she hit over .600 in her league. I cannot remember anything else about her, except that her uniform was sent to the Baseball HOF. Not that she has a chance of making it to pro ball, and even if she is playing high school ball, but she was the best pitcher in all of Little League at 13.

There was a female pitcher in Chattanooga in the early 1930's. She had learned to pitch from Dazzy Vance. Joe Engel signed her to pitch for the Chattanooga Lookouts in an exhibition game against the Yankees. She struck out Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig. Of course, the Yankees were too scared. Yosemite Sam was there warning that if any of the Yankees came out of the dugout, he would blow their heads off.