Henderson vs Morgan

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I rate Morgan at 17 now, lower than early sabermetrics did.

Now personally I have a couple of issues. 1, his rates were horrible in situations where a hit was worth a lot more than a walk. Something like .227 batting and .350 slugging with a runner on second and first base empty. In other words, he was not a great batter who drew walks on top of great batting, he was a great walker who used walks and patience to maximumize to boost his overall hitting rates. There are situations in which I would much rather have someone else at the plate.

Two other issues with Morgan are that I actually think that the 70s and early 80s were NOT an extremely high LQ period. I think that offense had been stunted at the end of the 60s and batters reverted to inferior approaches and mechanics just to put the ball in play and hope for an "empty" .300 that managers seemed to like then. As a result it may have been easier for guys who walked and hit with some power to stand out statistically. YES I think it was actually a period of regression for baseball. Moreso to insert something other than stats here, Morgan's swing itself just does not look like a good modern baseball swing. It looks like the inferior mechanics of the 70s combined with some strong wrists and a good eye.

Brett,

I think you'll find this article interesting. Morgan talks bout how the old big ballparks were being replaced with artificial turf ballparks and how this may signal a change in the game from HR power to speed and contact hitting.

The Sporting News, January 3, 1976 (pg 35)

Morgan TSN 01-03-1976.jpg

[bluesky5]

I'll keep posting them. I feel it's fruitful to see how contemporary accounts viewed players. In 1975-76 it's clear to me that Morgan was considered the best player in baseball and no other player was really close.

I agree with Brett.

[pheasant]

Just wondering, the articles I am posting, are they helpful and interesting?

The articles and pics that you post are very interesting. It's great to see the style of writing the authors posted back in the day. Also, the opinions of the writers and the players' peers are very interesting as well. It really brings me back in time. Back in my day, internet and cable weren't around yet(I'm a Sept 1968 addition). I had to watch T.W.I.B. starring Mel Allen to keep up on the rest of the league on TV. Also, Baseball Digest was huge as well. My parents stepped up and bought me a book called, "The Ultimate Baseball Book", the 1979 edition. That hardcover book must have cost a forture. But I read it until it fell apart as a 9 year old. And of course, to get stats, I purchased the Baseball Encylopedia.

Mr. Bill Burgess seems to have retired and you've picked up where he left off, which is good.

[Dude Paskert]

I bought "The Ultimate Baseball Book" when I was at college in the mid 80s and obsessed about it. My first real exposure to hitters from history was from "The Science of Hitting" by Williams and TUBB gave me a better feel for the historical progression of baseball.
I also enjoyed the other baseball sources you mention at the time, plus I read "The Sporting News" often and "Baseball America" occasionally.

The articles and pics that you post are very interesting. It's great to see the style of writing the authors posted back in the day. Also, the opinions of the writers and the players' peers are very interesting as well. It really brings me back in time. Back in my day, internet and cable weren't around yet(I'm a Sept 1968 addition). I had to watch T.W.I.B. starring Mel Allen to keep up on the rest of the league on TV. Also, Baseball Digest was huge as well. My parents stepped up and bought me a book called, "The Ultimate Baseball Book", the 1979 edition. That hardcover book must have cost a forture. But I read it until it fell apart as a 9 year old. And of course, to get stats, I purchased the Baseball Encylopedia.

Mr. Bill Burgess seems to have retired and you've picked up where he left off, which is good.

[GiambiJuice]

I would choose Morgan as he was similar talent and value wise but was a much better team player than Henderson. Rickey was always more of a "me first" guy.

[bluesky5]

I would choose Morgan as he was similar talent and value wise but was a much better team player than Henderson. Rickey was always more of a "me first" guy.

Not Rickey!

[Dude Paskert]

I would choose Morgan as he was similar talent and value wise but was a much better team player than Henderson. Rickey was always more of a "me first" guy.

Rickey was a "RICKEY first" guy!
Usually referred to himself in the third person, like Bo...think the story on Bo was that it helped him avoid stuttering.

[3and2Fastball]

Not an easy choice as I am a huge fan of both. I value the Gold Glove 2B defensively more than even a truly great defensive LF.

I have to go with Henderson, however. He was a dynamic, incredibly exciting player to watch who inspired teammates and millions of fans alike. The greatest base-stealer of All-Time. .339BA/.448 OBP in the World Series. He put up a 144 OPS+ from '83-'93 while averaging 70 Stolen Bases a season. He also aged much much better than Morgan, putting up a .402 OBP between the ages of 35-40. The guy stole 66 bases in his age 39 season!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Is it time to derail this thread by talking about how awesome Babe Ruth was, how WAR sucks, how walks are overrated, how ranking Joe Morgan ahead of Rogers Hornsby and Eddie Collins is stupid, that Rickey was a lazy bum because he hit less triples in a season than catcher Mike Heath, and that Rickey was selfish because he stole bases just to steal bases?

Is it time now?

[bluesky5]

I'm not sure if I posted a decision in the past or not but I'm picking Henderson. I am all for positional adjustments but Rickey was just too rare an offensive force and had too many great seasons compared to Morgan for me to put Joe ahead. Career SB and runs record. 3000+ hits, 500+ doubles, 297 HR. Maintained a .279 average and .401 OBP into a 25 year career.

I'd also like to add:

• WAR sucks!
• Ranking Morgan ahead of Hornsby and Lajoie is stupid because...
• Walks are overrated.
• Mike Heath had more triples in a season than Henderson.
• Henderson stole bases just to steal bases.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

^^^^^^ You forgot to mention Base Ruth! :grouchy

[bluesky5]

^^^^^^ You forgot to mention Base Ruth! :grouchy

Who is she?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

^^^^^^ You forgot to mention Base Ruth! :grouchy

Yo why you gotta always make it about him :clown:

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Who is she?

[blade1969]

It pains me, but I had to vote for Rickey.