View Poll Results: Who was better?

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  • Rickey Henderson

    19 73.08%
  • Joe Morgan

    7 26.92%
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Thread: Henderson vs Morgan

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett View Post
    Morgan was the player of the year in almost every publication in '75 and '76 as well.
    From The Sporting News, October 25, 1975 and November 29, 1975. The first article mentions "master statistician" Allen Roth.

    Morgan TSN 10-25-1975.jpg

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Morgan TSN 11-29-1975.jpg
    Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 02-05-2013 at 06:23 PM.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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  2. #27
    There was a thread on individual seasons that made a historic difference. This might be one of them, since it really put what has come ro be known as sabremetrics in the public eye.
    Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

  3. #28
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    Just wondering, the articles I am posting, are they helpful and interesting?
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

    http://sfgiants-forum.com/forum/index.php

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Just wondering, the articles I am posting, are they helpful and interesting?

    It's nice to see. It provides some real history on a forum that is often dominated by chaotic fantasy, and childhood dreams of greatness.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett View Post
    It's nice to see. It provides some real history on a forum that is often dominated by chaotic fantasy, and childhood dreams of greatness.
    I'll keep posting them. I feel it's fruitful to see how contemporary accounts viewed players. In 1975-76 it's clear to me that Morgan was considered the best player in baseball and no other player was really close.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett View Post
    I rate Morgan at 17 now, lower than early sabermetrics did.

    Now personally I have a couple of issues. 1, his rates were horrible in situations where a hit was worth a lot more than a walk. Something like .227 batting and .350 slugging with a runner on second and first base empty. In other words, he was not a great batter who drew walks on top of great batting, he was a great walker who used walks and patience to maximumize to boost his overall hitting rates. There are situations in which I would much rather have someone else at the plate.

    Two other issues with Morgan are that I actually think that the 70s and early 80s were NOT an extremely high LQ period. I think that offense had been stunted at the end of the 60s and batters reverted to inferior approaches and mechanics just to put the ball in play and hope for an "empty" .300 that managers seemed to like then. As a result it may have been easier for guys who walked and hit with some power to stand out statistically. YES I think it was actually a period of regression for baseball. Moreso to insert something other than stats here, Morgan's swing itself just does not look like a good modern baseball swing. It looks like the inferior mechanics of the 70s combined with some strong wrists and a good eye.
    Brett,

    I think you'll find this article interesting. Morgan talks bout how the old big ballparks were being replaced with artificial turf ballparks and how this may signal a change in the game from HR power to speed and contact hitting.

    The Sporting News, January 3, 1976 (pg 35)

    Morgan TSN 01-03-1976.jpg
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    I'll keep posting them. I feel it's fruitful to see how contemporary accounts viewed players. In 1975-76 it's clear to me that Morgan was considered the best player in baseball and no other player was really close.
    I agree with Brett.
    "I go all out, and I'm going to bring that to the table everyday. In good times and in bad times." - Eric Byrnes
    "As long as I have fun playing, the stats will take care of themselves." - Ken Griffey Jr.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Just wondering, the articles I am posting, are they helpful and interesting?
    The articles and pics that you post are very interesting. It's great to see the style of writing the authors posted back in the day. Also, the opinions of the writers and the players' peers are very interesting as well. It really brings me back in time. Back in my day, internet and cable weren't around yet(I'm a Sept 1968 addition). I had to watch T.W.I.B. starring Mel Allen to keep up on the rest of the league on TV. Also, Baseball Digest was huge as well. My parents stepped up and bought me a book called, "The Ultimate Baseball Book", the 1979 edition. That hardcover book must have cost a forture. But I read it until it fell apart as a 9 year old. And of course, to get stats, I purchased the Baseball Encylopedia.

    Mr. Bill Burgess seems to have retired and you've picked up where he left off, which is good.

  9. #34
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    I bought "The Ultimate Baseball Book" when I was at college in the mid 80s and obsessed about it. My first real exposure to hitters from history was from "The Science of Hitting" by Williams and TUBB gave me a better feel for the historical progression of baseball.
    I also enjoyed the other baseball sources you mention at the time, plus I read "The Sporting News" often and "Baseball America" occasionally.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheasant View Post
    The articles and pics that you post are very interesting. It's great to see the style of writing the authors posted back in the day. Also, the opinions of the writers and the players' peers are very interesting as well. It really brings me back in time. Back in my day, internet and cable weren't around yet(I'm a Sept 1968 addition). I had to watch T.W.I.B. starring Mel Allen to keep up on the rest of the league on TV. Also, Baseball Digest was huge as well. My parents stepped up and bought me a book called, "The Ultimate Baseball Book", the 1979 edition. That hardcover book must have cost a forture. But I read it until it fell apart as a 9 year old. And of course, to get stats, I purchased the Baseball Encylopedia.

    Mr. Bill Burgess seems to have retired and you've picked up where he left off, which is good.
    A fond yet sad farewell to Bill Burgess, the Ty Cobb of BBF.

  10. #35
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    I would choose Morgan as he was similar talent and value wise but was a much better team player than Henderson. Rickey was always more of a "me first" guy.
    RIP Bill Burgess - a gentleman and a scholar - Baseball-Fever will never be the same without you.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    I would choose Morgan as he was similar talent and value wise but was a much better team player than Henderson. Rickey was always more of a "me first" guy.
    Not Rickey!
    "I go all out, and I'm going to bring that to the table everyday. In good times and in bad times." - Eric Byrnes
    "As long as I have fun playing, the stats will take care of themselves." - Ken Griffey Jr.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    I would choose Morgan as he was similar talent and value wise but was a much better team player than Henderson. Rickey was always more of a "me first" guy.
    Rickey was a "RICKEY first" guy!
    Usually referred to himself in the third person, like Bo...think the story on Bo was that it helped him avoid stuttering.
    A fond yet sad farewell to Bill Burgess, the Ty Cobb of BBF.

  13. #38
    Not an easy choice as I am a huge fan of both. I value the Gold Glove 2B defensively more than even a truly great defensive LF.

    I have to go with Henderson, however. He was a dynamic, incredibly exciting player to watch who inspired teammates and millions of fans alike. The greatest base-stealer of All-Time. .339BA/.448 OBP in the World Series. He put up a 144 OPS+ from '83-'93 while averaging 70 Stolen Bases a season. He also aged much much better than Morgan, putting up a .402 OBP between the ages of 35-40. The guy stole 66 bases in his age 39 season!

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Is it time to derail this thread by talking about how awesome Babe Ruth was, how WAR sucks, how walks are overrated, how ranking Joe Morgan ahead of Rogers Hornsby and Eddie Collins is stupid, that Rickey was a lazy bum because he hit less triples in a season than catcher Mike Heath, and that Rickey was selfish because he stole bases just to steal bases?
    Is it time now?
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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  15. #40
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    I'm not sure if I posted a decision in the past or not but I'm picking Henderson. I am all for positional adjustments but Rickey was just too rare an offensive force and had too many great seasons compared to Morgan for me to put Joe ahead. Career SB and runs record. 3000+ hits, 500+ doubles, 297 HR. Maintained a .279 average and .401 OBP into a 25 year career.

    I'd also like to add:

    • WAR sucks!
    • Ranking Morgan ahead of Hornsby and Lajoie is stupid because...
    • Walks are overrated.
    • Mike Heath had more triples in a season than Henderson.
    • Henderson stole bases just to steal bases.
    "I go all out, and I'm going to bring that to the table everyday. In good times and in bad times." - Eric Byrnes
    "As long as I have fun playing, the stats will take care of themselves." - Ken Griffey Jr.

  16. #41
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    ^^^^^^ You forgot to mention Base Ruth!
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    ^^^^^^ You forgot to mention Base Ruth!
    Who is she?
    "I go all out, and I'm going to bring that to the table everyday. In good times and in bad times." - Eric Byrnes
    "As long as I have fun playing, the stats will take care of themselves." - Ken Griffey Jr.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    ^^^^^^ You forgot to mention Base Ruth!
    Yo why you gotta always make it about him
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky5 View Post
    Who is she?
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

    http://sfgiants-forum.com/forum/index.php

  20. #45
    It pains me, but I had to vote for Rickey.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by blade1969 View Post
    It pains me, but I had to vote for Rickey.
    Why? It shouldn't be painful. The same argument for Joe Morgan as an all-time great works for Rickey.
    "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
    George Brett

  22. #47
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    This is an interesting article about Rickey Henderson from the Bill James 1992 Baseball Book. He mentions Joe Morgan briefly but the main point of the article is to answer the question as to whether Willie Mays would have been a better leadoff hitter than Rickey?


    1992 BJ Baseball Book 1.jpg


    1992 BJ Baseball Book 2.jpg


    1992 BJ Baseball Book 3.jpg
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

    http://sfgiants-forum.com/forum/index.php

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