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Thread: Is throwing a slider safe for a HS Freshman?

  1. #76
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    Daque,

    "Forced supination is a well noted problem”
    I would like to see these notes in that it is almost impossible to prove Kinesiological theory and it’s pathologies. Voluntary supination has been theorized to effect the back of the elbow for a long time now, agreed.

    “especially in youth pitchers”
    I would not emphasis this in that adults also suffer from this debilitating action.

    “I have not seen anything on medial elbow problems with pronated pitches”
    Did you understand this mechanical mechanism I eluded to that supinated and pronated pitches rely on the attachments that emanate from the medial epicondyle growth plate of the flexor group? The main pronator muscle (pronator terres) attaches there along with 4 others.
    “Most pitches end up in pronation except for the slider and for the slurve”
    Not so, what you are witnessing is end of range of motion voluntary supination where the forearm has no where else to go but back the other way with involuntary pronation after release. Everybody makes this error in mechanical diagnosis,

    “It sounds that your theory about pronated injuries to the medial epicondyle has not yet been substantiated.”
    This is not my theory it is Dr.Marshalls and it makes perfect anatomical sense.
    Like I said who can prove any of this without electroencephalograms and even they make mistakes called artifacts. I’ll go with his theories knowing what I know about him and his education and intellect, nobody else comes close.

    “ I have been involved with youth baseball for almost 60 years and have not seen it or have attributed it to supination when I didn't know”
    Now you have something new to mull over “ballistic hyper extension” that supination causes and the reason to not produce it.

    “Let me know when you find a verifiable case and we will mull it over together”
    First explain to me how this is done anywhere with any kinesiological case?
    When someone invents the high speed motion x-ray or MRI it might happen until then all is theory.
    “the first left turn circuit”

  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by daque View Post
    " He actually had a fractured growth plate...."
    "He threw only fastballs with a few change ups in the mix."

    "I truly believe that just pounding fast ball after fastball causes a lot of damage."

    1. What is the mechanism of a fast ball causing damage to the growth plate (I presume the medial epicondyle)?
    2. What sort of damage do you believe is caused by repeated fast balls and to what part of the body?
    I would be more inclined to believe that 60 pitch innings were more of the norm for this kid on that one team and that throwing too many pitches was the problem.

    Also one 60 pitch inning means how many pitches in a game?

    I once threw my son (when 12U) in a championship game, 130 pitches. He went 7 innings with 21 strikeouts.
    BUT I knew he wasn't going to pitch in another game for 2 weeks and I gave him a week off to rest. This was also 2 months into the season when his are was in condition.

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by tradosaurus View Post

    I once threw my son (when 12U) in a championship game, 130 pitches....
    In hindsight do you now consider that a mistake?

  4. #79
    Dirt: You state, in part, "This is not my theory it is Dr.Marshalls...."

    I accept that. But it is still a theory without evidence such as injured arms to support it. I need more. I have all of the empirical evidence I need regarding forced supination and the arms I described. I am not denying what you say but I need more. Otherwise all kids should not pitch unless you want them all to use the universally unaccepted methodology of Dr. Marshall.

  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by omg View Post
    In hindsight do you now consider that a mistake?
    I would certainly hope so but have doubts with all of the justifications he gave. Unfortunately, these types of injuries are prone not to reveal themselves until some time. How many HS coaches get the blame for arm injuries that reveal themselves on their watch but occurred over time on the small diamond?

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by daque View Post
    Dirt: You state, in part, "This is not my theory it is Dr.Marshalls...."

    I accept that. But it is still a theory without evidence such as injured arms to support it. I need more. I have all of the empirical evidence I need regarding forced supination and the arms I described. I am not denying what you say but I need more. Otherwise all kids should not pitch unless you want them all to use the universally unaccepted methodology of Dr. Marshall.
    Daque,
    Can you share that evidence? Have you read Dr. Marshall's work? He does have evidence.

    Here's a lecture Doc did... There are seven parts, so if you are interested you can go to Youtube and find the rest.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwt57wL7ghg
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  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by omg View Post
    In hindsight do you now consider that a mistake?
    No. He was feeling good. He was throwing about 75% speed. And he recovered within 4 days of rest.

    And of course he had a no-hitter going until I pulled him.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by omg View Post
    In hindsight do you now consider that a mistake?
    I would consider a mistake, especially at that age, no hitter or not.

  9. #84
    Jake: As you know, empirical evidence is evidence based upon observation. I have been coaching youth baseball since 1953 and have observed many such deformed elbows with limitation of motion. The kids with these problems were almost an exclusive slurve thrower and many were overused with insufficient rest time in addition. Rest periods were until the next game.

    I did not read Marshall's work but have listened and interacted with some of his followers and they have left me unconvinced. Demonstrations of his advised pitching technique leaves me unconvinced alomg with as every other level of coaching. I just accepted dirtberry's (a Marshall advocate) assertion that he has no evidence of the claim involving pronation and the medial elbow and he notes that this is Marshall's theory.

    If it were true that pronation and supination could cause medial epicondyle injuries, then what is left? Play softball? Using my limitations. I have never had a kid go down with an elbow injury. Nor have I personally seen a kid who pronates have a problem. Perhaps you can cite where the evidence you claim is located. Something solid, not theoretical, por favor.

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by tradosaurus View Post
    No. He was feeling good. He was throwing about 75% speed. And he recovered within 4 days of rest.

    And of course he had a no-hitter going until I pulled him.
    Interesting. I've been there.

    As for the "feeling good", I've heard it many times before but my standard rule is to never believe it, no matter the player, talent level, or experience level. I have noticed that pitchers tend to say "feeling good" more often when they are pitching well (no-hitter) than when they are getting shellacked. But, hey, maybe that's just my experience.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by daque View Post
    Pitches which have a significant componant of forceful supination, especially in kids with open growth plates, are risky. Among those are 1. Slider and 2. Slurve (part curve and part slider.) These pitches stress the medial epicondyle.
    Please provide a link to a study by a reputable independent group which backs up this claim.
    eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by songtitle View Post
    Please provide a link to a study by a reputable independent group which backs up this claim.
    I talked about this with an M.D. a couple of weeks ago.

    While she buys the logic behind the wisdom of pronation, and the problems with supination, the fact is that nobody even knows how to study this because the technology isn't good enough at the moment.

    They collected data on this as part of their study and couldn't do anything with it due to excessive levels of noise in the data.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by daque View Post
    Jake: As you know, empirical evidence is evidence based upon observation. I have been coaching youth baseball since 1953 and have observed many such deformed elbows with limitation of motion. The kids with these problems were almost an exclusive slurve thrower and many were overused with insufficient rest time in addition. Rest periods were until the next game.

    I did not read Marshall's work but have listened and interacted with some of his followers and they have left me unconvinced. Demonstrations of his advised pitching technique leaves me unconvinced alomg with as every other level of coaching. I just accepted dirtberry's (a Marshall advocate) assertion that he has no evidence of the claim involving pronation and the medial elbow and he notes that this is Marshall's theory.

    If it were true that pronation and supination could cause medial epicondyle injuries, then what is left? Play softball? Using my limitations. I have never had a kid go down with an elbow injury. Nor have I personally seen a kid who pronates have a problem. Perhaps you can cite where the evidence you claim is located. Something solid, not theoretical, por favor.
    Daque,
    I would give Dr. Marshall the benefit of the doubt and review his material for yourself. His disciples are "enthusiastic" to say the least, and I believe some of them have driven many away from Doc findings, but I have found many of them to be very knowledgeable about the pitching motion.

    I've met Doc and found him to be the consumate gentleman who did something no other player in baseball has done - Recieve a doctorate in kenesiology and win a Cy Young Award.

    While I don't have your kind of experience - I have coached hundreds of players and never had an arm injury, using a pronated release. Something Doc espouses. If you go to his site I believe he has material there.

    I do agree that many injuries could be prevented by eliminating overuse.

    Nor have I personally seen a kid who pronates have a problem.
    On this we agree.
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  14. #89
    Jake, Are you of the belief that Dr. Marshall's pitching technique is superior to the conventional method commonly used?

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by daque View Post
    Jake, Are you of the belief that Dr. Marshall's pitching technique is superior to the conventional method commonly used?
    Superior as in overall performance -No... But I believe it's less injurious.
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  16. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Patterson View Post
    Superior as in overall performance -No... But I believe it's less injurious.
    OK. So is playing video game baseball. Let me change the question. Do you believe that his methodology is a viable alternative as far as pitching performance is concerned?

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by daque View Post
    OK. So is playing video game baseball. Let me change the question. Do you believe that his methodology is a viable alternative as far as pitching performance is concerned?
    I believe that Doc was instrumental in forcing baseball to think differently about the injurious nature of conventional pitching... and more important, the culpability poor coaching has in overuse and injuries inflicted on thousands of young men. I believe his methodology is so radical that few have embraced it or are able to teach it. I believe professional baseball resists anything different inspite of data presented mostly because of the dogma-induced ignorance many in the game have. I have attended many and sponsored and organized (for ten years) some of the biggest coaching clinics in NE U.S. Every one of these clinics had an orthopedist or kenesiologist speak. To include Dr. Michael Joyce - they all agree what we do hurts arms.

    So what does this all mean? I believe Doc's work was revolutionary, but he developed a method difficult to replicate and teach... I believe there are others who are now teaching a modified version of his work and are having greater success. One in particular had me throwing pain free for the first time in 20 years (I have since retired and can still throw pain free using a different method than I was taught years ago.)

    I hope that answers your question?
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  18. #93
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    Thanks for all the insights. I appreciate all of the knowledge and help I get on here. Just an update. The pitching coach who was going to work with my son on a slider is now working exclusively with the Varsity squad. There's a former Major League pitcher who came in today to work with the freshman pitchers. He's volunteering to come in "frequently" to work with the pitchers. He showed my son new CU and CB grips. He wants my son to throw FB and CU, then work in an occasional CB just so the hitters know it's there. I'm much more comfortable with this. We're definitely spoiled here in AZ. Last week Kevin Long was at their practice giving pointers to the hitters. I guess last year Bob Welch came to a practice to work with the pitchers.
    Last edited by azmatsfan; 02-11-2013 at 09:59 PM.

  19. #94
    Jake: I agree with a lot of the progress Doc has contributed to youth baseball. Any new methodology arriving on the scene for pitching mechanics will have to make the pitcher more effective to be accepted. We all agree that pitching overhand is an unnatural activity for the arm and stressful. Most likely that is why softball pitchers can go multiple games in the same day without difficulty. The mindset for inspired players is that damage to the arm is the price you play for playing the game you love. Just like the knees and gnarled hands of a catcher. Pitch counts are merely one factor in a multifaceted problem. Baseball will adopt things that improve abilities and reject those that don't meet muster. One relativley recent change is rotational hitting vs linear. And MLB uses batting helmets and throat protectors originated in Little League. So it isn't that they are just being stubborn about change. But be it a new widget or a new technique, it must be effective to be accepted. So far, for whatever reasons, MM's technique hasn't met that criteria.

  20. #95
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    Daque,

    ”it is still a theory without evidence such as injured arms to support it.”
    Well, I’m not quite sure how to please your curiosity but I’m sure glad you are curious.
    First you said it was noted then you said you needed substantiation. Now your OK with
    Empirical evidence when this is what I have all ready brought to the table.

    “I need more.”
    OK, when the wrist is flexing to produce traditionally oriented forearm supination on there Cutter, Slurve, Curve, and Slider during the voluntary driveline it is not only flexing, it is also Ulnar flexing (little finger towards the forearm) powerfully, therefore the Extensor Carpi Ulnaris that attaches at the lateral epicondyle is the primary driver of ulnar flexion, tennis players suffer from this injury and curveball pitchers attain what is called “tennis elbow” that grade tears it’s tendon. These injuries are basic lack of fitness injuries. Supination effects the extensors that attach on the lateral side more.

    Kids that break the medial growth plate are contracting the Flexors group while supinating or pronating although very few know how to voluntarily pronate.

    “I have all of the empirical evidence I need regarding forced supination and the arms I described.”
    Empirical evidence (non scientifically derived) is nice and can answer questions when thought out carefully but when you say “I need more” and at the same time rely on empirical evidence for your own belief system I become enigmotized.

    “Otherwise all kids should not pitch unless you want them all to use the universally unaccepted methodology of Dr. Marshall”
    Dr.Marshall has said this even about his mechanical recommendations in regards to bone development, remember?
    What is unacceptable about pronation? What is unacceptable about rotation? What could be unacceptable about “sport specific training” ? More and more every year it is being accepted only in a bastardized hybrid form, very sad!

    For the first time one of our legendary JC coaches out here (SACC) is letting 3 of his pitchers train with iron balls and wrist weight daily while all the other pitchers shag balls for the batters as usual, one of them is now at 95 MPH. Things are gaining ground fast.

    “If it were true that pronation and supination could cause medial epicondyle injuries, then what is left? Play softball? Using my limitations.”
    Simply attain a “sport specific“ training regimen to withstand the stress!

    “Are you of the belief that Dr. Marshall's pitching technique is superior to the conventional method commonly used?”
    Absolutely!!! I have trained many kids in this manor and they all improve their velocity and command. This is how I start out the beginners then hybridize it when the coaching and societal pressure to change becomes to overbearing around 13 yo.

    In fact, all outfielder/pitchers who Crowstep in the outfield have better velocity from there than when they traditionally pitch.

    “We all agree that pitching overhand is an unnatural activity for the arm and stressful.”
    I totally disagree!!! Any range of motion you can attain is natural, this is a typical baseball cliché’ that all repeat after they hear it without thinking for themselves.
    If this were true Ogg would have never brought down that Buffalo.

    “Most likely that is why softball pitchers can go multiple games in the same day without difficulty.”
    They pitch from the other full range of motion, go figure, again non-injurious.

    “The mindset for inspired players is that damage to the arm is the price you play for playing the game you love.”
    This would be ignorant ones not inspired ones!!!

    “Pitch counts are merely one factor in a multifaceted problem.”
    Only for youth pitchers!

    “Baseball will adopt things that improve abilities and reject those that don't meet muster.”
    Bull, they never do this, they are strictly flavor of the day.

    “One relativley recent change is rotational hitting vs linear”
    These are marketing words, the mechanics are nothing new and fluctuate from decade to decade and person to person and always have !!

    “MLB uses batting helmets and throat protectors originated in Little League”
    The throat protector was originated by Bill Bueler the Dodger trainer to protect Steve Yeagers bat shard impaled throat!

    .
    “So it isn't that they are just being stubborn about change”
    Change can not happen when the biggest changer is blackballed out of contention!!!!!

    “But be it a new widget or a new technique, it must be effective to be accepted.”
    This is BS, it has proven to be effective by many at all levels, the problem is we have no bar to jump over, this sport is totally subjective, just hand us the ball please.
    We even have a Cy Young award with the top half mechanic.

    “So far, for whatever reasons, MM's technique hasn't met that criteria”
    So now that you have figured it out and by this will not (more importantly have not) proceed in practice or words, you have now just answered your own previous questions, same as most all others.

    It might behoove you and us to get back on subject if your going to get all this information wrong as others continually do.
    Last edited by Dirtberry; 02-11-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by daque View Post
    The mindset for inspired players is that damage to the arm is the price you play for playing the game you love. Just like the knees and gnarled hands of a catcher. Pitch counts are merely one factor in a multifaceted problem. Baseball will adopt things that improve abilities and reject those that don't meet muster. One relativley recent change is rotational hitting vs linear. And MLB uses batting helmets and throat protectors originated in Little League. So it isn't that they are just being stubborn about change. But be it a new widget or a new technique, it must be effective to be accepted. So far, for whatever reasons, MM's technique hasn't met that criteria.
    Daque, respectfully disagree...
    I've sat with hundreds of professional coaches, attended spring training for ten years, watched dozens of baseball roundtables and I have to say that MUCH of what the professional world teaches is dogma. Try getting Mattingly and Lau in the same setting and see how much scientifically proven bio-mechanics are discussed. Professional baseball, like that young man who posted recently (Red head?), hang their hat on what works whether they understand it or not.

    I also coached basketball for 12 years... If you went to a basketball coaching clinic you would see a vast difference... Basketball coaches accept what is new and and ask why it works, baseball coaches want to impress you with their knowledge of the old ways.

    I've seen one of the best sports orthopedics (Dr. M. Joyce) in the country in, argue elbow damage with college and lower level professional coaches with the coaches leaving the room saying he doesn't know what he's talking about. After the session I tracked one of the pro coaches down and asked him what medical training does he have - none. "But you had some kenesiology training right?" -" No, you don't need it to know what works and what doesn't." And this is not an exception in the game - it's the rule. When in doubt the dogma wins.
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  22. #97
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    As you know, I've been researching and writing in this area for years. A couple of weeks ago, I did a presentation to 500 or so members of the Illinois High School Baseball Coaches Association...

    - Pitching Mechanics and Injury Prevention Presentation

    ...and came away with a couple of things that are relevant to this conversation.

    Most of the coaches I talked to had heard Marshall talk. Their feedback on his presentation wasn't good. The few guys who actually understood what he was talking about weren't convinced by his arguments because it was all theory. He couldn't, wouldn't, or didn't point to successful major leaguers who did what he was advocating.

    What was interesting was that the audience wasn't opposed to a discussion about injury prevention. My talk and ideas were very positively received. The difference was that I made my case using pictures, clips, and image sequences of major leaguers. That convinced them that what I was talking about wasn't that radical.

    What was curious was how few of them had really looked at any video of major leaguers. I blew people away with clips of stuff that are common knowledge on sites like this one.
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 02-12-2013 at 07:20 AM.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Patterson View Post
    Daque, respectfully disagree...
    I've sat with hundreds of professional coaches, attended spring training for ten years, watched dozens of baseball roundtables and I have to say that MUCH of what the professional world teaches is dogma. Try getting Mattingly and Lau in the same setting and see how much scientifically proven bio-mechanics are discussed. Professional baseball, like that young man who posted recently (Red head?), hang their hat on what works whether they understand it or not.

    I also coached basketball for 12 years... If you went to a basketball coaching clinic you would see a vast difference... Basketball coaches accept what is new and and ask why it works, baseball coaches want to impress you with their knowledge of the old ways.

    I've seen one of the best sports orthopedics (Dr. M. Joyce) in the country in, argue elbow damage with college and lower level professional coaches with the coaches leaving the room saying he doesn't know what he's talking about. After the session I tracked one of the pro coaches down and asked him what medical training does he have - none. "But you had some kenesiology training right?" -" No, you don't need it to know what works and what doesn't." And this is not an exception in the game - it's the rule. When in doubt the dogma wins.
    This question isn't just for you, Jake, but what is different about baseball that makes coaches so resistant to new ways of doing things? We see the same thing with hitting instruction when slow motion video contradicts what top coaches are teaching. It seems in other sports there is more acceptance of new ideas, science, and technology.

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    As you know, I've been researching and writing in this area for years. A couple of weeks ago, I did a presentation to 500 or so members of the Illinois High School Baseball Coaches Association...

    - Pitching Mechanics and Injury Prevention Presentation

    ...and came away with a couple of things that are relevant to this conversation.

    Most of the coaches I talked to had heard Marshall talk. Their feedback on his presentation wasn't good. The few guys who actually understood what he was talking about weren't convinced by his arguments because it was all theory. He couldn't, wouldn't, or didn't point to successful major leaguers who did what he was advocating.

    What was interesting was that the audience wasn't opposed to a discussion about injury prevention. My talk and ideas were very positively received. The difference was that I made my case using pictures, clips, and image sequences of major leaguers. That convinced them that what I was talking about wasn't that radical.

    What was curious was how few of them had really looked at any video of major leaguers. I blew people away with clips of stuff that are common knowledge on sites like this one.
    Marshall's biggest problem with his presentation is his lack of understanding of the physics involved in pitching.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by azmatsfan View Post
    This question isn't just for you, Jake, but what is different about baseball that makes coaches so resistant to new ways of doing things?
    I don't think this is universal.

    The guy who was most enthusiastic about my presentation was a coach who was there to be inducted into the Illinois high school hall of fame.

    Of course, perhaps the reason he was going into the hof was because he was constantly looking for good, new information.
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 02-12-2013 at 07:37 AM.

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