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Thread: My Negro League Ratings

  1. #1
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    My Negro League Ratings

    I'm going to post my rankings of NeL players in my personal HoF. I'd love some feedback from more knowledgeable folks just in case some of this doesn't jive with accepted opinion. I tried to do the best with the information I could gather or already knew.

    Do the rankings match with contemporary opinion?
    Are there any players/contributors I missed considered better/more important than ones I have listed?
    Did I get any of the outfielders in the wrong outfield position?

    Catcher
    1. Josh Gibson - Homestead Grays
    2. Louis Santop - Hilldale Daisies
    3. Biz Mackey - Hilldale Daisies
    4. Double Duty Radcliffe - Chicago American Giants
    5. Quincy Trouppe - KC Monarchs | Cleveland Indians
    6. Bruce Petway - Chicago American Giants

    First Base
    1. Mule Suttles - St. Louis Stars
    2. Buck Leonard - Homestead Grays
    3. Ben Taylor - Indianapolis ABC's

    Second Base
    1. Home Run Johnson - Brooklyn Royal Giants
    2. Martin Dihigo - Habana Lions
    3. Frank Grant - Cuban Giants
    4. Charlie Grant - Philadelphia Giants
    5. Sol White - Philadelphia Giants

    Shortstop
    1. Pop Lloyd - Lincoln Giants
    2. Perucho Cepeda - Santurce Crabbers
    3. Willie Wells - St. Louis Stars

    Third Base
    1. Jud Wilson - Baltimore Black Sox
    2. John Beckwith - Chicago Giants
    3. Bill Monroe - Brooklyn Royal Giants
    4. Judy Johnson - Hilldale Daisies
    5. Ray Dandridge - Newark Eagles

    Left Field
    1. Turkey Stearnes - Detroit Stars
    2. Monte Irvin - Newark Eagles | NY Giants

    Center Field
    1. Oscar Charleston - Pittsburgh Crawfords
    2. Cool Papa Bell - Pittsburgh Crawfords
    3. Cristobal Torriente - Chicago American Giants
    4. Pete Hill - Chicago American Giants
    5. Spot Poles - Lincoln Giants
    6. Alejandro Oms - Cuban Stars East

    Right Field
    1. Willard Brown - KC Monarchs | St. Louis Browns
    2. Chino Smith - Brooklyn Royal Giants

    Pitchers
    1. Smoky Joe Williams - Homestead Grays
    2. Satchel Paige - KC Monarchs | St. Louis Browns
    3. Bullet Rogan - KC Monarchs
    4. Ray Brown - Homestead Grays
    5. Rube Foster - Chicago American Giants
    6. Bill Foster - Chicago American Giants
    7. Jose Mendez - Almendares Blues
    8. Dick Redding - Brooklyn Royal Giants
    9. George Stovey - Cuban Giants
    10. Leon Day - Newark Eagles
    11. Andy Cooper - KC Monarchs
    12. Hilton Smith - KC Monarchs
    13. Double Duty Radcliffe - Chicago American Giants

    Contributors
    [in no order]

    Bud Fowler
    Ed Bolden
    Sol White
    Buck O'Neill
    Alex Pompez
    Cumberland Posey
    J.L. Wilkinson
    Last edited by bluesky5; 09-09-2013 at 07:12 AM.
    "I go all out. And I'm going to bring that to the table every day, in good times and bad times." - Eric Byrnes

    "...far too many people want to retroactively apply today's standards to yesterday's players, as if they played the game under the same assumptions and just heedlessly and obdurately plowed on in their own groove." - Los Bravos

  2. #2
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    Not very knowledgeable on the Negro Leagues, but I don't think I'd have Bill Monroe as #1 third baseman.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    Not very knowledgeable on the Negro Leagues, but I don't think I'd have Bill Monroe as #1 third baseman.
    You think Beckwith?
    "I go all out. And I'm going to bring that to the table every day, in good times and bad times." - Eric Byrnes

    "...far too many people want to retroactively apply today's standards to yesterday's players, as if they played the game under the same assumptions and just heedlessly and obdurately plowed on in their own groove." - Los Bravos

  4. #4
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    Of the five you've listed, I'd list them
    1. Wilson
    2. Beckwith
    3. Dandridge
    4. Johnson
    5. Monroe

    The issue with the first two is whether their gloves would suffice. I think they would. Wilson certainly wasn't pretty, but he got the job done and had a pretty good arm. The way Negro League baseball was played, with a lot of small ball, his glove was more of a problem than it would have been in the majors. However, the small rosters made him acceptable in the Negro Leagues even with that style of play. Beckwith's glove is also questioned, but the man did play a lot of shortstop. He may have been overmatched at that spot, but I think if you moved him to third, he'd have been alright. Monroe's available batting data is weaker than his reputation by a substantial margin. I'm at least concerned that his hitting was no more than mediocre. Judy Johnson's hitting was about as good as it could be for someone who didn't have much power nor walk much. His glove was sterling, but he's Pie Traynor lite, and I don't regard that as a compliment. Dandridge had some power and a good glove, but available data shows a low walk rate, which undermines his value in my eyes.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  5. #5
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    Thanks Jim!!!
    "I go all out. And I'm going to bring that to the table every day, in good times and bad times." - Eric Byrnes

    "...far too many people want to retroactively apply today's standards to yesterday's players, as if they played the game under the same assumptions and just heedlessly and obdurately plowed on in their own groove." - Los Bravos

  6. #6
    No Hank Thompson???

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky5 View Post
    You think Beckwith?
    No mine is Boojum. Again, hardly an authority on the matter
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

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    Bluesky, you have neither Bingo DeMoss nor Newt Allen in your rankings for second base. May I ask why?
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    Bluesky, you have neither Bingo DeMoss nor Newt Allen in your rankings for second base. May I ask why?
    Allen could hit, so the question is sensible in his case. BBref has records of 3016 PA, and his average is .227, OBP is .301, and slg is .278. Even if the Negro Leagues were as good as the majors, that's not a good offensive player. However, to add insult to injury, those marks are higher than he'd have earned in the majors. Why would you think a hitter of that quality is one of the best Negro Leaguers ever at a position?
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Allen could hit, so the question is sensible in his case. BBref has records of 3016 PA, and his average is .227, OBP is .301, and slg is .278. Even if the Negro Leagues were as good as the majors, that's not a good offensive player. However, to add insult to injury, those marks are higher than he'd have earned in the majors. Why would you think a hitter of that quality is one of the best Negro Leaguers ever at a position?
    I don't I just hear the names thrown around. After finishing my personal Hall of Fame, I remain unsatisfied with my NeL selections. I'm a small Hall guy, having therefore no desire to go bat crazy with NeLers. They are to be enshrined by the same strict standards as everyone else. Nineteen are enshrined thus far. Several NeLers stand on each side of the borderline; some I've warily inducted, some I've cautiously shut out.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

  11. #11
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    I'm not saying all of these guys should be in the Hall, but here is my current ranking: ( I left bluesky's rankings on the left for reference)

    Catcher
    1. Josh Gibson - Homestead Grays
    3. Biz Mackey - Hilldale Daisies
    2. Louis Santop - Hilldale Daisies
    4. Double Duty Radcliffe - Chicago American Giants

    Not ranked yet
    5. Quincy Trouppe - KC Monarchs | Cleveland Indians
    6. Bruce Petway - Chicago American Giants

    First Base
    1. Buck Leonard - Homestead Grays

    Not ranked yet
    3. Ben Taylor - Indianapolis ABC's

    Second Base
    2. Martin Dihigo - Habana Lions
    NA Newt Allen -

    Not ranked yet
    1. Home Run Johnson - Brooklyn Royal Giants - (definitely think this guy is top 4)
    3. Frank Grant - Cuban Giants (definitely think this guy is top 4)
    4. Charlie Grant - Philadelphia Giants
    5. Sol White - Philadelphia Giants

    Shortstop
    1. Pop Lloyd - Lincoln Giants
    3. Willie Wells - St. Louis Stars

    2. Perucho Cepeda - Santurce Crabbers (I'll have to look this guy up)


    Third Base
    5. Ray Dandridge - Newark Eagles
    NA Oliver "Ghost" Marcelle -
    4. Judy Johnson - Hilldale Daisies
    1. Jud Wilson - Baltimore Black Sox
    2. John Beckwith - Chicago Giants

    Not ranked yet
    3. Bill Monroe - Brooklyn Royal Giants



    Left Field
    2. Mule Suttles - St. Louis Stars

    Ranked with MLB
    2. Monte Irvin - Newark Eagles | NY Giants

    Center Field
    1. Oscar Charleston - Pittsburgh Crawfords
    2. Cool Papa Bell - Pittsburgh Crawfords
    3. Cristobal Torriente - Chicago American Giants

    Not ranked yet
    4. Pete Hill - Chicago American Giants
    5. Spot Poles - Lincoln Giants
    6. Alejandro Oms - Cuban Stars East

    Right Field
    1. Turkey Stearnes - Detroit Stars

    Not ranked yet
    1. Willard Brown - KC Monarchs | St. Louis Browns
    2. Chino Smith - Brooklyn Royal Giants

    Pitchers
    2. Satchel Paige - KC Monarchs | St. Louis Browns
    1. Smoky Joe Williams - Homestead Grays
    5. Rube Foster - Chicago American Giants
    3. Bullet Rogan - KC Monarchs (He's over Rube if you count hitting)
    7. Jose Mendez - Almendares Blues
    12. Hilton Smith - KC Monarchs
    NA - John Donaldson -
    6. Bill Foster - Chicago American Giants
    4. Ray Brown - Homestead Grays
    11. Andy Cooper - KC Monarchs
    NA David Barnhill -
    13. Double Duty Radcliffe - Chicago American Giants

    Not ranked yet
    8. Dick Redding - Brooklyn Royal Giants (the next 2 in some order)
    10. Leon Day - Newark Eagles (the next 2 in some order)
    9. George Stovey - Cuban Giants

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