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Thread: 2016-17 Mets Off-Season Thread

  1. #1101
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    LOL. Yeah I must have said it then if you say so.

    Maybe you were confused on who you think I meant when I said "tried". It was the organization. I meant the organization put an honest effort into winning. IF they do that - then we cant complain if they don't.

    They haven't don't that in a long long time.

    Yeah lets just try then they all should get trophy's and go to Friendly's for a chocolate Sunday.

    Brow beaten into submission that Mets are on a historic run...for them.


    Not necessarily historic, but that sounds great.

    I think your perennial contenders like the Dodgers, Cardinals, Giants, Yanks and Red Sox are the one's that get a trophy and go to Friendly's. Just for being perennial contenders.

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    Your perennial contenders as you state, are always willing to spend money and invest in their organizations. I have yet to see the Mets do that. <==please don't bring up Cespedes. Bring up the others as in Murphy, or some of the others who they let walk. I haven't seen them make any offers of significance to the pitching staff..

    I can handle the higher ticket prices, outrageously priced "Sushi" and other high priced luxuries if the Mets could show me they are interested in building a good, sustaining organization rather than "We're Only in it for the Money". <==Apologies to Mr. Zappa and the MOI
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  3. #1103
    Quote Originally Posted by brooklynboy View Post
    Your perennial contenders as you state, are always willing to spend money and invest in their organizations. I have yet to see the Mets do that. <==please don't bring up Cespedes. Bring up the others as in Murphy, or some of the others who they let walk. I haven't seen them make any offers of significance to the pitching staff..

    I can handle the higher ticket prices, outrageously priced "Sushi" and other high priced luxuries if the Mets could show me they are interested in building a good, sustaining organization rather than "We're Only in it for the Money". <==Apologies to Mr. Zappa and the MOI
    No one should spend their disposable income if they don't want to.

    Do perennial contenders get trophies or kudos that I'm unaware of? Other than more forced ESPN Sunday night games.

  4. #1104
    Lotta folks here are gonna want to get in on this one!

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  5. #1105
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    Quote Originally Posted by LI METS FAN View Post
    [/B]Not necessarily historic, but that sounds great.

    I think your perennial contenders like the Dodgers, Cardinals, Giants, Yanks and Red Sox are the one's that get a trophy and go to Friendly's. Just for being perennial contenders.
    No you see - that is what I mean by trying. The perennial contenders are trying to win every if not most every year. Of course they will step back to go forward at times, but for the most part they are in the thick of it. Now with Theo and plenty of funding we probably could put the Cubs in there.

    The Mets have not tried - in fact I am still not sure how hard the organization has tried. Although they should contend this year for a playoff spot at least I don't see the effort to put quality across the diamond.

    Lets put it this way - this was not a well devised plan by the Mets. If you want to see planning - look at the Red Sox, the Cubs, and the Cardinals. The Cubs cashed in on a lot of sucking with great players at different positions through the system, great trades for young talent, and spent money to win to strike while the window is open. Red Sox are doing the same thing.

    The Mets are semi cashing in on sucking. One foot in - one foot out. This is the Wilpon way.

    I am not being overly critical of the organization - I see this as what has happened.

    With all that said - again - I believe that they will compete this year for at least a playoff spot. I just believe that they could be a lot more with a real effort.

  6. #1106
    Clearly we disagree.

    The team appears to be in the middle of a successful stretch to me.
    To you the team has not tried. Now when they were 59-103 I'd buy the not trying. Not today.

  7. #1107
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    Quote Originally Posted by LI METS FAN View Post
    Clearly we disagree.

    The team appears to be in the middle of a successful stretch to me.
    To you the team has not tried. Now when they were 59-103 I'd buy the not trying. Not today.
    Yes we disagree. I didn't say they were void of trying -- I said "not hard enough".

    I hope you are right about the successful run. I hope there are multiple years left and that they make the moves to sustain it further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brooklynboy View Post
    Your perennial contenders as you state, are always willing to spend money and invest in their organizations. I have yet to see the Mets do that. <==please don't bring up Cespedes. Bring up the others as in Murphy, or some of the others who they let walk. I haven't seen them make any offers of significance to the pitching staff..

    I can handle the higher ticket prices, outrageously priced "Sushi" and other high priced luxuries if the Mets could show me they are interested in building a good, sustaining organization rather than "We're Only in it for the Money". <==Apologies to Mr. Zappa and the MOI
    Why shouldn't you bring up Cespedes when talking about trying to win? How many people would have said they are not trying to win if they did not sign him? We will see which pitchers they sign. Do you think they should sign them all now to big contracts to show people on the fence about buying expensive sushi at the ballpark that they care?

    Once we can accept that they do have a budget it will be easier to see why some people are signed and why others are not. Once we can accept that Wilpon's not Steinbrenner and the Mets are not the Yanks maybe we can spend more time appreciating the talent this team DOES have and look forward to what we all believe could be a good season.

    One final word on Murphy. He was the least sought after 2nd baseman in the 2015 free agent market and was the Nats 3rd choice. He didn't even have the faith in himself to accept a short term deal, have a great year and try free agency again. Many teams in baseball got Murphy wrong, not just the Mets.

  9. #1109
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjsallstars View Post
    Why shouldn't you bring up Cespedes when talking about trying to win? How many people would have said they are not trying to win if they did not sign him? We will see which pitchers they sign. Do you think they should sign them all now to big contracts to show people on the fence about buying expensive sushi at the ballpark that they care?

    Once we can accept that they do have a budget it will be easier to see why some people are signed and why others are not. Once we can accept that Wilpon's not Steinbrenner and the Mets are not the Yanks maybe we can spend more time appreciating the talent this team DOES have and look forward to what we all believe could be a good season.

    One final word on Murphy. He was the least sought after 2nd baseman in the 2015 free agent market and was the Nats 3rd choice. He didn't even have the faith in himself to accept a short term deal, have a great year and try free agency again. Many teams in baseball got Murphy wrong, not just the Mets.
    I fully agree on Murphy - he wasn't wanted. My thing about Murphy is that if he believed in himself he would have taken the QO an cashed in huge this past off season. Plain and simple. He did turn his career around in a big way and he will not cash in on it. He is not the sharpest tool in the shed -- I think we all know that is a fact.

    Also agree the Mets are not the Yankees - they are not the Giants, the Dodgers, the Cardinals, the Cubs, or the Red Sox either.

    I have to be honest being that you said we have to appreciate the talent this team does have. - Besides Noah, deGrom, Cespedes -- what player(s) are you telling yourself "oh I have to see this guy"?

    That is my whole point - I just am not sure how talented they are. Talented enough to compete for a WC and hopefully win the division if things break right. Hopefully.

    I just think that they could/should carry more star power than they do. They rely on sub par/injured players way too often. That may be just me.

  10. #1110
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjsallstars View Post
    Why shouldn't you bring up Cespedes when talking about trying to win? How many people would have said they are not trying to win if they did not sign him? We will see which pitchers they sign. Do you think they should sign them all now to big contracts to show people on the fence about buying expensive sushi at the ballpark that they care?

    Once we can accept that they do have a budget it will be easier to see why some people are signed and why others are not. Once we can accept that Wilpon's not Steinbrenner and the Mets are not the Yanks maybe we can spend more time appreciating the talent this team DOES have and look forward to what we all believe could be a good season.

    One final word on Murphy. He was the least sought after 2nd baseman in the 2015 free agent market and was the Nats 3rd choice. He didn't even have the faith in himself to accept a short term deal, have a great year and try free agency again. Many teams in baseball got Murphy wrong, not just the Mets.
    How many teams really needed 2nd basemen last off-season? The position is probably the deepest it's ever been across baseball. There weren't a lot of spots open, especially on contenders, which was important to Murphy.

    Least sought after? He didn't do his market a lot of favors by waiting around until the Mets got Walker, to sign a contract. He was hoping the Maverick would make him a credible offer. Too bad the legend in his own mind has no eye for talent.

    You're probably right about one thing: Murph's pissed he's only guaranteed $50 million in lifetime earnings so far. You could see the pillar of smoke billowing from his ears in satellite photos of Jacksonville this winter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    I fully agree on Murphy - he wasn't wanted. My thing about Murphy is that if he believed in himself he would have taken the QO an cashed in huge this past off season. Plain and simple. He did turn his career around in a big way and he will not cash in on it. He is not the sharpest tool in the shed -- I think we all know that is a fact.

    Also agree the Mets are not the Yankees - they are not the Giants, the Dodgers, the Cardinals, the Cubs, or the Red Sox either.

    I have to be honest being that you said we have to appreciate the talent this team does have. - Besides Noah, deGrom, Cespedes -- what player(s) are you telling yourself "oh I have to see this guy"?

    That is my whole point - I just am not sure how talented they are. Talented enough to compete for a WC and hopefully win the division if things break right. Hopefully.

    I just think that they could/should carry more star power than they do. They rely on sub par/injured players way too often. That may be just me.
    It's not just you.

    Fred himself said the goal was "meaningful games in September".


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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    I fully agree on Murphy - he wasn't wanted. My thing about Murphy is that if he believed in himself he would have taken the QO an cashed in huge this past off season. Plain and simple. He did turn his career around in a big way and he will not cash in on it. He is not the sharpest tool in the shed -- I think we all know that is a fact.

    Also agree the Mets are not the Yankees - they are not the Giants, the Dodgers, the Cardinals, the Cubs, or the Red Sox either.

    I have to be honest being that you said we have to appreciate the talent this team does have. - Besides Noah, deGrom, Cespedes -- what player(s) are you telling yourself "oh I have to see this guy"?

    That is my whole point - I just am not sure how talented they are. Talented enough to compete for a WC and hopefully win the division if things break right. Hopefully.

    I just think that they could/should carry more star power than they do. They rely on sub par/injured players way too often. That may be just me.
    I understand exactly what you are saying. I know three "stars" aren't enough to excite you. You are 100% correct thinking that this team is relying on players who have been injured in the past. I will ask the question who are the players that they could have/should have acquired to give them more star power?

    We both know a proven relief pitcher is not going to come to a team that already has a proven closer already on the roster. If they do they came for one of two reasons, they were overpaid and/or they really do not care to be the guy. I don't want a guy like that.

    Could they have acquired a star SP? Not sure that's what they need. I would have liked Colon but even he saw that he might not get enough starts and he wants the Dominician win record. Can you fault the Mets for that?

    Could they have acquired a star OF? Yes, McCutchen. He is a star but his quality of play has slipped and the Bucs wanted a lot for him. Is that a deal worth making? Bautista? They had to sign Cespedes and they did. Once again, no one will applaud but if they did not sign him many would boo. Bruce is too much like Duda for me but their decision to keep him and not give him away may prove to be the right one. And Freddy agreed to pay for it!

    Could they have acquired a star IF? I would have liked at least an upgrade at 1st or 3rd. What do you think Dudas value was on the trade market last year? Hopefully not much. Wright will be given the 3rd baseman job until he proves he cannot handle it which he is slowly but surely showing he can't. Reyes can play 3rd, so can Flores. Both good players. Cabrera had a good year last year and they do have a highly touted SS close. Neil Walker became a leader and is an all around good 2nd baseman. If he wasn't hurt he could have signed the contract that Murphy should have signed this offseason if he played his cards right. Walker was worth the risk for this year. I would have like watching Herrera though.

    Could they have acquired a star C? Lucroy. They wanted him at the trade deadline. Again, what do you think they would have needed to give up to get him? They made the decision to give darnaud one more chance to be the player the scouts think he can be. Will he? I do not know but to dump him for nothing and for him to blossom with another team would be a big mistake. Lucroy will also be a FA after this season.

    I guess my point is and has been for the last 9 years on this site is that it is always easier to want something than to figure out how to get it the smart way. I also have never been a fan of the "hey let's make a splash" to show everyone how much we care. I feel the best way to run a team is to make good sound decisions whether that involves finances, not overpaying in talent for someone via trade and having patience with young talented players. Those are all very tough rules to follow in this fantasy baseball culture. I do not know of any GM who gets it right all the time. I know a bunch of guys on BF who have gotten it right through the years though! "Wasted talent" is truly a shame.

    You mention the Yanks, Giants, Dodgers, Cardinals, Cubs and Red Sox as teams who have it fiqured out. We could argue until August that all of those teams have made some decisions over the last few years that have slowed their progress and put them in situations that hurt their chances of winning. Right now the Cubs look like world beaters but anyone who has watched baseball long enough knows it is way to early to "bank on" how that team will perform in the upcoming years.
    Last edited by rjsallstars; 03-21-2017 at 04:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    How many teams really needed 2nd basemen last off-season? The position is probably the deepest it's ever been across baseball. There weren't a lot of spots open, especially on contenders, which was important to Murphy.

    Least sought after? He didn't do his market a lot of favors by waiting around until the Mets got Walker, to sign a contract. He was hoping the Maverick would make him a credible offer. Too bad the legend in his own mind has no eye for talent.

    You're probably right about one thing: Murph's pissed he's only guaranteed $50 million in lifetime earnings so far. You could see the pillar of smoke billowing from his ears in satellite photos of Jacksonville this winter.



    It's not just you.

    Fred himself said the goal was "meaningful games in September".
    Anything can happen because of "meaningful games in September". Everything I said about Murphy is true and spot on. Sorry you choose not to comprehend it. Too bad Murphy couldn't figure himself out earlier in his career. He could have helped himself and the team he played for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjsallstars View Post
    I understand exactly what you are saying. I know three "stars" aren't enough to excite you. You are 100% correct thinking that this team is relying on players who have been injured in the past. I will ask the question who are the players that they could have/should have acquired to give them more star power?
    Does it excite you that the Mets have two guys that play 1.5 times a week maybe and one everyday player that is a real watch and the rest of the roster is eehh? I don't need stars all over the place but cmon.

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsallstars View Post
    We both know a proven relief pitcher is not going to come to a team that already has a proven closer already on the roster. If they do they came for one of two reasons, they were overpaid and/or they really do not care to be the guy. I don't want a guy like that.
    Didn't Chapman and Miller coexist last year on the Yankees.

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsallstars View Post
    Could they have acquired a star SP? Not sure that's what they need. I would have liked Colon but even he saw that he might not get enough starts and he wants the Dominician win record. Can you fault the Mets for that?
    I agree SP is not where they need to look.

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsallstars View Post
    Could they have acquired a star OF? Yes, McCutchen. He is a star but his quality of play has slipped and the Bucs wanted a lot for him. Is that a deal worth making? Bautista? They had to sign Cespedes and they did. Once again, no one will applaud but if they did not sign him many would boo. Bruce is too much like Duda for me but their decision to keep him and not give him away may prove to be the right one. And Freddy agreed to pay for it!
    I don't know what the Bucs wanted for McCutchen so I cant comment on the deal, but McCutchen is going to bounce back. He is only 30,

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsallstars View Post
    Could they have acquired a star IF? I would have liked at least an upgrade at 1st or 3rd. What do you think Dudas value was on the trade market last year? Hopefully not much. Wright will be given the 3rd baseman job until he proves he cannot handle it which he is slowly but surely showing he can't. Reyes can play 3rd, so can Flores. Both good players. Cabrera had a good year last year and they do have a highly touted SS close. Neil Walker became a leader and is an all around good 2nd baseman. If he wasn't hurt he could have signed the contract that Murphy should have signed this offseason if he played his cards right. Walker was worth the risk for this year. I would have like watching Herrera though.
    Duda has no trade value coming off what is still a lingering back issue...that and the guy just flat out sucks. Wright is done. So us as fans hearing about both of these players is becoming increasingly annoying. Time to move on.

    I would love to see Flores get a shot at 600 AB's playing first/third. Let Reyes play 3rd most of the time. Cabrera was good last year as was Walker. Walker is another player coming off a back injury. So who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsallstars View Post
    Could they have acquired a star C? Lucroy. They wanted him at the trade deadline. Again, what do you think they would have needed to give up to get him? They made the decision to give darnaud one more chance to be the player the scouts think he can be. Will he? I do not know but to dump him for nothing and for him to blossom with another team would be a big mistake. Lucroy will also be a FA after this season.
    Again I don't know what they wanted but Texas didn't give up a lot for him. Lucroy was the move to make. Time to walk away from dArnaud. You rather hold on to him out of fear that someone may reap the benefit IF IF IF he blossoms without getting injured every 5 minutes. In the meantime it will cost the Mets wins. I do not feel that way at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsallstars View Post
    I guess my point is and has been for the last 9 years on this site is that it is always easier to want something than to figure out how to get it the smart way. I also have never been a fan of the "hey let's make a splash" to show everyone how much we care. I feel the best way to run a team is to make good sound decisions whether that involves finances, not overpaying in talent for someone via trade and having patience with young talented players. Those are all very tough rules to follow in this fantasy baseball culture. I do not know of any GM who gets it right all the time. I know a bunch of guys on BF who have gotten it right through the years though! "Wasted talent" is truly a shame.
    I don't want them to "make a splash" for the sake of making a splash. I want a good team on the field. One that is worth watching day in and day out. This offense will again prove to be something to be desired. It will go through spells where it is unwatchable. The pitching will have so much pressure on it to be perfect. I don't give rats ass if they overpay for talent. As long as its talent that helps them win. I am not sure why you care about how much money someone else makes. Not my business. I care about wins.

    You have made the Met balance sheet your personal business. I haven't. Also the Mets can afford much more than spent.

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsallstars View Post
    You mention the Yanks, Giants, Dodgers, Cardinals, Cubs and Red Sox as teams who have it fiqured out. We could argue until August that all of those teams have made some decisions over the last few years that have slowed their progress and put them in situations that hurt their chances of winning. Right now the Cubs look like world beaters but anyone who has watched baseball long enough knows it is way to early to "bank on" how that team will perform in the upcoming years.
    Yes we could argue that but overall they are there aren't they? They for the most part put themselves in a position to win or at least the organization tries to win. They give their fans a good product.

    You cant bank on anything. All you can do is put yourself in the best position to win. THE BEST POSITION TO WIN. Have the Mets done that? Is this the best team the Mets could have put on the field? I don't believe it is. I don't know all the trade possibilities and free agent talk that was going on within the league and with the Mets but I am of the belief that they could have come into 2017 with a better roster than this.

    Again - I expect them to be a winning team and compete for a playoff spot on some level. We agree on that. You just are seemingly more satisfied with that than I am. I see areas where the team could be improved. I believe some of it wasn't done because of payroll. That is not a reason for me.
    Last edited by Paulypal; 03-21-2017 at 07:53 AM.

  14. #1114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    Does it excite you that the Mets have two guys that play 1.5 times a week maybe and one everyday player that is a real watch and the rest of the roster is eehh? I don't need stars all over the place but cmon.



    Didn't Chapman and Miller coexist last year on the Yankees.



    I agree SP is not where they need to look.



    I don't know what the Bucs wanted for McCutchen so I cant comment on the deal, but McCutchen is going to bounce back. He is only 30,



    Duda has no trade value coming off what is still a lingering back issue...that and the guy just flat out sucks. Wright is done. So us as fans hearing about both of these players is becoming increasingly annoying. Time to move on.

    I would love to see Flores get a shot at 600 AB's playing first/third. Let Reyes play 3rd most of the time. Cabrera was good last year as was Walker. Walker is another player coming off a back injury. So who knows.



    Again I don't know what they wanted but Texas didn't give up a lot for him. Lucroy was the move to make. Time to walk away from dArnaud. You rather hold on to him out of fear that someone may reap the benefit IF IF IF he blossoms without getting injured every 5 minutes. In the meantime it will cost the Mets wins. I do not feel that way at all.



    I don't want them to "make a splash" for the sake of making a splash. I want a good team on the field. One that is worth watching day in and day out. This offense will again prove to be something to be desired. It will go through spells where it is unwatchable. The pitching will have so much pressure on it to be perfect. I don't give rats ass if they overpay for talent. As long as its talent that helps them win. I am not sure why you care about how much money someone else makes. Not my business. I care about wins.

    You have made the Met balance sheet your personal business. I haven't. Also the Mets can afford much more than spent.



    Yes we could argue that but overall they are there aren't they? They for the most part put themselves in a position to win or at least the organization tries to win. They give their fans a good product.

    You cant bank on anything. All you can do is put yourself in the best position to win. THE BEST POSITION TO WIN. Have the Mets done that? Is this the best team the Mets could have put on the field? I don't believe it is. I don't know all the trade possibilities and free agent talk that was going on within the league and with the Mets but I am of the belief that they could have come into 2017 with a better roster than this.

    Again - I expect them to be a winning team and compete for a playoff spot on some level. We agree on that. You just are seemingly more satisfied with that than I am. I see areas where the team could be improved. I believe some of it wasn't done because of payroll. That is not a reason for me.
    Ok, so you pretty much don't know what they could have done or what it would have taken to get it done but you think they could and should have done more?

    BTW, Chapman and Miller coexisted for about 4 months and when you have a budget you better worry about getting value for what you spend money on or at some point it will bite you in the butt.

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    Sports Illustrated has Mets losing to Cubs in NLDS, Dodgers beating Indians to win World Series:
    http://www.si.com/mlb/2017/03/21/wor...odgers-indians
    The Mets have the best, smartest fans in baseball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjsallstars View Post
    Ok, so you pretty much don't know what they could have done or what it would have taken to get it done but you think they could and should have done more?

    BTW, Chapman and Miller coexisted for about 4 months and when you have a budget you better worry about getting value for what you spend money on or at some point it will bite you in the butt.
    Seriously? That's your answer or response? I don't know what they could have done? What a joke.

    You know what you are so right. This is the best possible team they could put on the field. No doubt. This team is a juggernaut - I just dont see them losing more 40 games this year. They couldn't be improved obviously.

    Budget again biting someone in the ass. I love that you are so worried about a billionaires cash. Its valiant of you.

    Sometimes its all just too ridiculous for words.
    Last edited by Paulypal; 03-21-2017 at 05:06 PM.

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    The best possible team they could put on the field? Okay, that's one view. They answer is they signed one player and decided to go with what they have in the organization..Is that the basis for a long time playoff organization? As for spending money, yes Capn Jeff will spend money..but mainly on everything but the Mets..Budget biting in the ass? Yea, sometimes that happens..And sometimes it don't.

    Wilpon is a dedicated Dodger fan. His Go Go Dodgers went to the WS on the strength of pitching(mainly Koufax and Drysdale) and won. Those teams were not known for offense. See any correlation here?. Pitching alone will not win the WS, remember '15?

    Do you honestly think our farm system will be productive over the coming years?
    North of the Big Apple but missing Central Fla

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue387 View Post
    Sports Illustrated has Mets losing to Cubs in NLDS, Dodgers beating Indians to win World Series:
    http://www.si.com/mlb/2017/03/21/wor...odgers-indians

    Just out of curiosity, do you have last years SI predictions?
    North of the Big Apple but missing Central Fla

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    [QUOTE=Paulypal;2631340]Seriously? That's your answer or response? I don't know what they could have done? What a joke.

    You know what you are so right. This is the best possible team they could put on the field. No doubt. This team is a juggernaut - I just dont see them losing more 40 games this year. They couldn't be improved obviously.

    Budget again biting someone in the ass. I love that you are so worried about a billionaires cash. Its valiant of you.

    The Mets believe that they have enough internally to sustain a perennial contender..Someone in the front office has been watching LaLa Land once too often
    North of the Big Apple but missing Central Fla

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    Quote Originally Posted by brooklynboy View Post
    The best possible team they could put on the field? Okay, that's one view. They answer is they signed one player and decided to go with what they have in the organization..Is that the basis for a long time playoff organization? As for spending money, yes Capn Jeff will spend money..but mainly on everything but the Mets..Budget biting in the ass? Yea, sometimes that happens..And sometimes it don't.

    Wilpon is a dedicated Dodger fan. His Go Go Dodgers went to the WS on the strength of pitching(mainly Koufax and Drysdale) and won. Those teams were not known for offense. See any correlation here?. Pitching alone will not win the WS, remember '15?

    Do you honestly think our farm system will be productive over the coming years?
    I don't expect them to break the bank or to make moves just for the sake of making them, but to think that this team couldn't be improved or they did their best to improve it is just beyond absurd.

    In the 2015 playoffs W/S - when they hit they won - when they didn't they lost. The pitching was good but the hitting put them over the top.

    The NLDS/NLCS they averaged 4.78 runs per game and won both series. In the WS they averaged 3.80 runs per game and lost 4 of 5.

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