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Thread: 2017 white sox: total rebuild or try again?

  1. #1

    2017 white sox: total rebuild or try again?

    I'm not sure what they should do. they have some good pieces but the depth is lacking. usually their way was getting one or two free agents and hope everyone has a good season.

    what I would do is a Cubs style total rebuild. unlike the Cubs after 2011 they actually do have good assets to trade. if you trade sale, abreu, eaton and Quintana you immediately have one of the greatest farm systems of all time.

    of course that could mean a couple 100 loss seasons but it probably is the best chance to win again.
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  2. #2
    They really need to increase attendance. They just don't seem to put any effort into that at all. The Northsiders drew almost a million and a half more this year (regular season only). Only four teams in the major leagues drew worse than the Sox this year. It's not just the quality of the team on the field - Cubs attendance has been proof of that. They have to get the word out. They have to make an effort. They have to hire people who know how to do those things. Heck, Mike Veeck is around, hire him. And they've got to grow a regional, if not national, fan base. A modern baseball team can't survive on just drawing from Bridgeport. For years, the streets downtown have been thronged with tourist families in brand new Cubs caps/jerseys/tees/whatever. You almost never see a tourist in Sox gear. That's something a ballclub with a competent front office would notice and learn from.

    I dunno. Maybe Reinsdorf doesn't want the Sox to be financially successful in Chicago. Maybe he's still angling for a 100% free ballpark with no strings attached in Vegas or Raleigh or wherever. That would at least explain their attitude. Nothing else does, except sheer total incompetence.
    Last edited by westsidegrounds; 10-19-2016 at 07:54 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by westsidegrounds View Post
    They really need to increase attendance. They just don't seem to put any effort into that at all. The Northsiders drew almost a million and a half more this year (regular season only). Only four teams in the major leagues drew worse than the Sox this year. It's not just the quality of the team on the field - Cubs attendance has been proof of that. They have to get the word out. They have to make an effort. They have to hire people who know how to do those things. Heck, Mike Veeck is around, hire him. And they've got to grow a regional, if not national, fan base. A modern baseball team can't survive on just drawing from Bridgeport. For years, the streets downtown have been thronged with tourist families in brand new Cubs caps/jerseys/tees/whatever. You almost never see a tourist in Sox gear. That's something a ballclub with a competent front office would notice and learn from.

    I dunno. Maybe Reinsdorf doesn't want the Sox to be financially successful in Chicago. Maybe he's still angling for a 100% free ballpark with no strings attached in Vegas or Raleigh or wherever. That would at least explain their attitude. Nothing else does, except sheer total incompetence.
    Most of the Sox fan base is in the suburbs, studies have shown this. The local area (the south side) in general doesn't support baseball by coming to games. This next part might sound racist, but isn't meant to be. The majority of the area around Comiskey is primarily black. When I do to games, there is not a high percentage of black fans there. Whether it is due to income, not following baseball, or other issues, the local fans are not walking to games like a lot of the Cubs Wrigleyville crowd does.

    People on the north side tend to support the Cubs, and don't go down to Comiskey. Sox fans are usually west surburban or south suburban fans, and they tend to drive to games. Yes, there are some people using the El, but usually they drive in (see the big parking lots south of Comiskey). When the team isn't winning, this dissuades people from making it an event.

    Plus the Cubs have a bigger fan base (I'd guess 58%-63% to 42% to 37% of the locals) and Comiskey is not a vacation destination, which is a shame as Comiskey is a much better venue to watch games than Wrigley, with the proviso that I've not been to a Cubs game in 3 years, and they are fixing the place up. However, any time you are standing in your own urine at the troughs, that is not pleasant. My co-worker experienced that in 2014/2015 at "beautiful" Wrigley Field.

    I'd be okay with a rebuild, but have no confidence in the organization in developing positional players.
    Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 10-20-2016 at 11:40 AM.
    "Let me tell you the story of the 1999 Cubs. On June 9, they were 32-24, leading the Wild Card race, and looked bound for another playoff appearance. Then the White Sox came to Wrigley for the Crosstown Series and swept them. They finished 67-95."

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  4. #4
    They will never draw as much as the cubs but if they win I believe it will be at least OK.

    the question is whether having 1-2 bigger FA signings and hoping it works is really the right Approach.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    They will never draw as much as the cubs .
    That's not necessarily a given. The Sox outdrew the Cubs every season but one from 1951 through 1967. They outdrew the Cubs 1974 1977 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1991 1992. They had Chicago's first 2 million + attendance in 1983, a year before the Cubs did it. The Cubs recent dominance happened because the Cubs ownership jumped onto the superstation/new media thing in a big way, and we all know how badly the Sox fumbled that opportunity. I don't believe the imbalance is irreversible.
    Last edited by westsidegrounds; 10-21-2016 at 11:44 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by westsidegrounds View Post
    That's not necessarily a given. The Sox outdrew the Cubs every season but one from 1951 through 1967. They outdrew the Cubs 1974 1977 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1991 1992. They had Chicago's first 2 million + attendance in 1983, a year before the Cubs did it. The Cubs recent dominance happened because the Cubs ownership jumped onto the superstation/new media thing in a big way, and we all know how badly the Sox fumbled that opportunity. I don't believe the imbalance is irreversible.
    It is highly unlikely the Sox will outdraw the Cubs. In 1984, Harry Carey and WGN turned Wrigley into the world's largest party. In 1991 and 1992, Comiskey was brand new, and a lot of people were going just to check it out.

    Also, Comiskey has been remodeled since it opened, with a significant loss of seats. Wrigley has added seats, so both ball parks are roughly in the 40,000 seat capacity now - and many people are deathly afraid of the Comiskey upper deck. Yes, I know Wrigley has an upper deck, but perceptions are perceptions.
    "Let me tell you the story of the 1999 Cubs. On June 9, they were 32-24, leading the Wild Card race, and looked bound for another playoff appearance. Then the White Sox came to Wrigley for the Crosstown Series and swept them. They finished 67-95."

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  7. #7
    Okay, seems like an agree to disagree situation re it being possible to surpass the C's in attendance.

    I don't think it's arguable that the Sox need to improve their promotional skills. You can not just put a good team on the field and hope people show up. Even a good team needs good promoters. Cleveland's going to the World Series this year - check out their attendance.

  8. #8
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    It's looking likely that a rebuild is coming. I'm going to be annoyed if we trade everyone decent but are left with Melky, A. Garcia, and Abreu. Those are the first three guys who'd be on my train out of town.
    "Let me tell you the story of the 1999 Cubs. On June 9, they were 32-24, leading the Wild Card race, and looked bound for another playoff appearance. Then the White Sox came to Wrigley for the Crosstown Series and swept them. They finished 67-95."

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
    It is highly unlikely the Sox will outdraw the Cubs. In 1984, Harry Carey and WGN turned Wrigley into the world's largest party. In 1991 and 1992, Comiskey was brand new, and a lot of people were going just to check it out.

    Also, Comiskey has been remodeled since it opened, with a significant loss of seats. Wrigley has added seats, so both ball parks are roughly in the 40,000 seat capacity now - and many people are deathly afraid of the Comiskey upper deck. Yes, I know Wrigley has an upper deck, but perceptions are perceptions.
    I'm one of those people. The upper deck in the current park starts where the old one left off - i.e. the lowest row of seats in the current upper deck is higher than the highest row in Old Comiskey Park, and the angle is terrifyingly steep. I went up there once, just to check it out. Never again.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
    It's looking likely that a rebuild is coming. I'm going to be annoyed if we trade everyone decent but are left with Melky, A. Garcia, and Abreu. Those are the first three guys who'd be on my train out of town.
    the Problem is that abreu is the only one of those who gets you anything back. garcia and melky even might have negative trade value at their salary (at least melky, I think garcia is still cheap).

    I think it is now proven that building around that core does not work with that front Office (tried it a few times) but I'm not sure I would trust the FO in a total rebuild either. will they get the right prospects and develope them?

    Ideally the sox would get one of those new sabermetric Young GMs and then start the rebuild.
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  11. #11
    Kopech & Moncada seem like OK players.

  12. #12
    Add giolito and Lopez. I think the white Sox do the right thing. Prospects can fail but usually having the best farm system in baseball is a good start. I read an article that said the majority of teams with the best farm systems do well the next 5-6 years after that.

    And while the white Sox had some stars they don't have to lose that much, they are comingoing of 4 straight losing seasons. The thing they lack is depth. After the royals win depth was a big topic. For example if your roster players 16-25 post negative 0.5 war and another team has them at positive 0.5 that is a difference of ten wins.

    So if two more losing seasons give you by far the best farm in baseball it is worth it in my opinion, they weren't going to win with the old core either.
    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

  13. #13
    really not a bad start to the rebuild. I also like they got a lot of advanced (AA and AAA) prospects so the rebuild shouldn't take too Long. pitching prospect depth is quite good now but they Need more hitting depth at the top behind moncada. I think they should now make sure to sell everyone so that they not win 73 or so but get a top3 pick.

    and get some polished hitting prospects for Quintana, jones and Robertson.
    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    really not a bad start to the rebuild. I also like they got a lot of advanced (AA and AAA) prospects so the rebuild shouldn't take too Long. pitching prospect depth is quite good now but they Need more hitting depth at the top behind moncada. I think they should now make sure to sell everyone so that they not win 73 or so but get a top3 pick.

    and get some polished hitting prospects for Quintana, jones and Robertson.
    Yup. You can't half-do a rebuild. You get stuck being the Reds. This is the way to do it.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    Yup. You can't half-do a rebuild. You get stuck being the Reds. This is the way to do it.
    Yup - if you're going to stink and rebuild, it doesn't do any good to hang on to one or two pieces good players who won't be with you when you get good again. IF they are young enough to be good when the rest of the team gets good and IF you can't trade them for fair value, yes, then hold onto them.

    I'd love to see them drop all the relievers for anyone of young value - one thing a bad team doesn't need is a bullpen, since relievers burn out fast and they for sure won't be here when (if?) the Sox get good again.
    "Let me tell you the story of the 1999 Cubs. On June 9, they were 32-24, leading the Wild Card race, and looked bound for another playoff appearance. Then the White Sox came to Wrigley for the Crosstown Series and swept them. They finished 67-95."

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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
    Yup - if you're going to stink and rebuild, it doesn't do any good to hang on to one or two pieces good players who won't be with you when you get good again. IF they are young enough to be good when the rest of the team gets good and IF you can't trade them for fair value, yes, then hold onto them.

    I'd love to see them drop all the relievers for anyone of young value - one thing a bad team doesn't need is a bullpen, since relievers burn out fast and they for sure won't be here when (if?) the Sox get good again.
    I think the relievers will be all traded, but maybe they wait until the Deadline because often then the Price for relievers is better.
    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

  17. #17
    Do you think Quintana will be traded before the season starts?

    I think the sox are currently asking a Little too much in the hope that someone gets desperate. I think that makes sense, you likely can still get a very good deal at the Deadline or next offseason. my guess is that he goes at the Deadline if one of the big contenders (cubs, red sox, astros, dodgers, nats) have an injury during the postseason race.
    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    Do you think Quintana will be traded before the season starts?

    I think the sox are currently asking a Little too much in the hope that someone gets desperate. I think that makes sense, you likely can still get a very good deal at the Deadline or next offseason. my guess is that he goes at the Deadline if one of the big contenders (cubs, red sox, astros, dodgers, nats) have an injury during the postseason race.
    I think he'll be gone by the All Star game, I'm not sure about before the season.

    I'm nowhere near as high on him as I was Sale. I personally don't think his "stuff" is close to Sale's, and he always did something or had some weird happen to him to not win the ballgame. Sometimes he has poor run support.

    People pooh-pooh won loss records, but good pitchers find a way to win more than 9 games a year. He's a #2 pitcher on a bad team or a strong #3 on a good team. Don't get fooled by looking at FIP or ERA+ or anything like that, he isn't as great as some would have you believe. I wish he was better, and then we could squeeze more out of him in a trade. He is a good pitcher, but not more than that. All Quintana games are a bit frustrating to watch.
    "Let me tell you the story of the 1999 Cubs. On June 9, they were 32-24, leading the Wild Card race, and looked bound for another playoff appearance. Then the White Sox came to Wrigley for the Crosstown Series and swept them. They finished 67-95."

    Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for three days (baseball signatures only!)


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    Do you think Quintana will be traded before the season starts?

    I think the sox are currently asking a Little too much in the hope that someone gets desperate. I think that makes sense, you likely can still get a very good deal at the Deadline or next offseason. my guess is that he goes at the Deadline if one of the big contenders (cubs, red sox, astros, dodgers, nats) have an injury during the postseason race.
    I think he'll be gone by the All Star game, I'm not sure about before the season.

    I'm nowhere near as high on him as I was Sale. I personally don't think his "stuff" is close to Sale's, and he always did something or had some weird happen to him to not win the ballgame. Sometimes he has poor run support.

    People pooh-pooh won loss records, but good pitchers find a way to win more than 9 games a year. He's a #2 pitcher on a bad team or a strong #3 on a good team. Don't get fooled by looking at FIP or ERA+ or anything like that, he isn't as great as some would have you believe. I wish he was better, and then we could squeeze more out of him in a trade. He is a good pitcher, but not more than that. All Quintana games are a bit frustrating to watch.
    "Let me tell you the story of the 1999 Cubs. On June 9, they were 32-24, leading the Wild Card race, and looked bound for another playoff appearance. Then the White Sox came to Wrigley for the Crosstown Series and swept them. They finished 67-95."

    Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for three days (baseball signatures only!)


    Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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