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Thread: Is fastball mania putting young arms on the brink?

  1. #21
    There are plenty of pitchers with great mechanics whose arms blow up. We're at the velocities where the odds are an arm is going to blow.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JettSixty View Post
    There are plenty of pitchers with great mechanics whose arms blow up. We're at the velocities where the odds are an arm is going to blow.
    Such as....
    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

  3. #23
    Almost every pitcher has arm problems at some point now.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JettSixty View Post
    Almost every pitcher has arm problems at some point now.
    Which suggests something has changed.

    And I've documented at length how pitching mechanics instruction has changed over the years.

    Not sure why people have such a hard time believing there's a connection.
    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

  5. #25
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    So Chris do you advocate the equal and oppo?
    If you let baseball kick your ass, it will

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Three View Post
    So Chris do you advocate the equal and oppo?
    The way House generally demos it? No.



    Maybe it's time to stop selling Mark Prior's mechanics?
    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis7 View Post
    IIRC, someone, somewhere, debunked the myth that you throw harder after TJS.
    Mine threw a lot faster! But, of course the fine print is that he was throwing a lot slower right before his UCL blew.

    Also, to further muddy the issue, he was a starter who would throw slower so he could make it through the game. A few times in front of scouts and in practice he hit 93. In college games, he would top 90/91 and cruise 87/88. At the end, some games he would randomly cruise at 85/87. Then the UCL went that summer.

    Now he's a reliever throwing mostly fastballs topping at 93, cruising at 88/90. So, he's 'faster', but not really.
    Last edited by songtitle; 03-20-2017 at 11:49 PM.
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  8. #28
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    There are a lot of other factors that play into this equations other than the fastball or mechanics. Some of which are:

    • A pitcher might have had micro tears for a very long time which began development as a young player. One way micro tears might have happened is to the player who pitches a few innings and then goes to play a position.
    • General arm care. IOWs, what a pitcher does in their off day does matter. What a pitcher does before and after they throw does matter.
    • One former MLB player once told me that weather matters. He was referencing the various conditions players play in in college. He also was one of those former players/coaches who believes that the elbow has to be covered until the temperature is a consistent 70+ degrees.
    • How extensive has the research been done to the role of weight lifting? I am a believer in the weight room but with this increase, is there a correlation? I simply don't know and don't believer there has been extensive research into this at all.
    • Genetics can't be discounted.


    As with some of the various philosophies on how to throw, the question then remains that if a pitcher does this and that and makes it to pro ball or MLB, would he have made it to that level without those things? How much can a change in mechanics actually inhibit a player from having enough success to advance in pro ball?
    Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by songtitle View Post
    Mine threw a lot faster! But, of course the fine print is that he was throwing a lot slower right before his UCL blew.

    Also, to further muddy the issue, he was a starter who would throw slower so he could make it through the game. A few times in front of scouts and in practice he hit 93. In college games, he would top 90/91 and cruise 87/88. At the end, some games he would randomly cruise at 85/87. Then the UCL went that summer.

    Now he's a reliever throwing mostly fastballs topping at 93, cruising at 88/90. So, he's 'faster', but not really.
    That's how I've understood it to work. There was a time there with some smashing MLB success stories that had people thinking TJ was adding velocity. I think that started with guys like John Smoltz and Matt Morris (Cardinals). Before TJ, Smoltz was at the point of trying a knuckleball to stay on the mound. The Cards followed a similar protocol to Smoltz' recovery, keeping him in the pen when he first came back. Morris was known as a low 90s guy and for awhile he hit mid to high 90s. People thought the code had been cracked. Guy has a torn UCL, you get him TJ, stick him in the pen for a year after he comes back, and he's better than new.

    This was at a time too when pitchers and hitters were mysteriously hitting their peaks in their late 30s also, so maybe that has to be factored in. Not that those guys were PED users, but you know, I don't think anybody thought Morris would be washed up by 29. People were thinking really long term.

  10. #30
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    dont like this....my son throws hard---tall lanky kid........gonna really limit his throwing this year...(already was planning that before this thread) he pitched too much last year for me---(and no way did i think so at the time) -i hate the mentality that is out there---the big league clubs throw these kids to the wolves----
    good article thanks for posting
    13U Coach in God's Country (the Midwest)

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cannonball View Post
    There are a lot of other factors that play into this equations other than the fastball or mechanics. Some of which are:

    • A pitcher might have had micro tears for a very long time which began development as a young player. One way micro tears might have happened is to the player who pitches a few innings and then goes to play a position.
    • General arm care. IOWs, what a pitcher does in their off day does matter. What a pitcher does before and after they throw does matter.
    • One former MLB player once told me that weather matters. He was referencing the various conditions players play in in college. He also was one of those former players/coaches who believes that the elbow has to be covered until the temperature is a consistent 70+ degrees.
    • How extensive has the research been done to the role of weight lifting? I am a believer in the weight room but with this increase, is there a correlation? I simply don't know and don't believer there has been extensive research into this at all.
    • Genetics can't be discounted.


    As with some of the various philosophies on how to throw, the question then remains that if a pitcher does this and that and makes it to pro ball or MLB, would he have made it to that level without those things? How much can a change in mechanics actually inhibit a player from having enough success to advance in pro ball?
    I will take science over pet theories.

    I'd cite it, but Jeff Passan ignored it and my pieces on the subject are verboten.

    But you could just Google "chris o'leary science epidemic"
    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    I will take science over pet theories.

    I'd cite it, but Jeff Passan ignored it and my pieces on the subject are verboten.

    But you could just Google "chris o'leary science epidemic"
    Exactly what is your degree and how has science disproved any of this?
    Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cannonball View Post
    Exactly what is your degree and how has science disproved any of this?
    I don't need a degree.

    I can read.

    Google "chris o'leary science epidemic" and you'll see what the research says.
    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    I don't need a degree.

    I can read.

    Google "chris o'leary science epidemic" and you'll see what the research says.
    Please answer my earlier question regarding your argument. I want to believe but have a problem with your logic.

    Also, it appears you discredit any scientific data you read that doesn't support your theory.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by real green View Post
    Also, it appears you discredit any scientific data you read that doesn't support your theory.
    Such as...
    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by real green View Post
    I don't fall into the more intelligent category, but help be believe. The problem I have with all the I told you so, is the reality that we know pitchers are prone to injury.

    When you call out a lot of pitchers and few get injured it doesn't really prove anything. If I was asked to watch every MLB pitcher and to name 20 that I thought were at risk of injury than over the next few years 5 were injured. What would that prove??? Even if 10 of 20 were injured over their careers???
    I would hope it's obvious that pitchers are increasingly prone to injury.

    I have also gotten better at decreasing the time of the prediction and the injury.

    Google "chris o'leary the list"

    There's also the whole "The medical director for the Nationals thought I was on to something and put together a study that said exactly what I said it would so he asked me to come to DC thing." Google "chris o'leary douoguih study inverted w timing"

    Quote Originally Posted by real green View Post
    When you call out a lot of pitchers and few get injured it doesn't really prove anything.
    Follow me on Twitter @thepainguy and you'll see how few pitchers I actually call out. You can also monitor me for deleted predictions, if you think that's what's going on.
    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

  17. #37
    There's some guys with timing issues that, c'mon, you have to admit there's something there regardless of whether there's a mound of data.


    I don't see how anybody could think that this:
    Example_ScapularLoading_Bad_AnthonyReyes_2006_048.jpg


    Could be as safe as this:

    Nolan-Ryan-8.jpg

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cannonball View Post
    As with some of the various philosophies on how to throw, the question then remains that if a pitcher does this and that and makes it to pro ball or MLB, would he have made it to that level without those things? How much can a change in mechanics actually inhibit a player from having enough success to advance in pro ball?
    100% agree with Cannonballs assessment. I don't understand everyone on the sidelines up in arms =-) over this issue. It just doesn't impact many people and the impact is minimal compared to the reward. Chris you have stated over and over again these are cheats to gain more velocity. My son throws with your flat arm syndrome. He has never been coached to scalp load. Pitcher's naturally get there trying to maximize velocity and stay in the game one more year. Please explain all the velocity cheats? Every pitcher wants to know....

    Chris I have no doubt you might be on to something but I think the problem is you have a false market. No one is that scared of TJ. Sure they don't want it to happen but if it does

    It is like telling an olympic skiing prospect they have to slow down to prevent knee injuries. Or a basketball player not to jump as high to prevent snapping his achillies.

    I could only imagine how frustrating it is for you and DB to run into walls. Yelling and screaming about the solution. Your solutions seem to involve mechanics that result in SLOWER velocity.

    The risk of blowing up your arm is to low for the reward of pitching in MLB. Now I could only imagine your true market could be the MLB organizations themselves which really scares the prospects. A prospect who HAS HAD to use high risk mechanics to get the required results might lose some value to a team. The team will know a player is playing with fire and has a high likelihood of injury.

    Until you find and prove "safe" mechanics that allow maximum velocity it will be tough to gain traction.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by real green View Post
    100% agree with Cannonballs assessment. I don't understand everyone on the sidelines up in arms =-) over this issue. It just doesn't impact many people and the impact is minimal compared to the reward. Chris you have stated over and over again these are cheats to gain more velocity. My son throws with your flat arm syndrome. He has never been coached to scalp load. Pitcher's naturally get there trying to maximize velocity and stay in the game one more year. Please explain all the velocity cheats? Every pitcher wants to know....

    Chris I have no doubt you might be on to something but I think the problem is you have a false market. No one is that scared of TJ. Sure they don't want it to happen but if it does

    It is like telling an olympic skiing prospect they have to slow down to prevent knee injuries. Or a basketball player not to jump as high to prevent snapping his achillies.

    I could only imagine how frustrating it is for you and DB to run into walls. Yelling and screaming about the solution. Your solutions seem to involve mechanics that result in SLOWER velocity.

    The risk of blowing up your arm is to low for the reward of pitching in MLB. Now I could only imagine your true market could be the MLB organizations themselves which really scares the prospects. A prospect who HAS HAD to use high risk mechanics to get the required results might lose some value to a team. The team will know a player is playing with fire and has a high likelihood of injury.

    Until you find and prove "safe" mechanics that allow maximum velocity it will be tough to gain traction.
    The last sentence takes us back to the Marshall debates before he folded his camp.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tman View Post
    There's some guys with timing issues that, c'mon, you have to admit there's something there regardless of whether there's a mound of data.


    I don't see how anybody could think that this:
    Example_ScapularLoading_Bad_AnthonyReyes_2006_048.jpg


    Could be as safe as this:

    Nolan-Ryan-8.jpg
    I don't know to whom your response was aimed at but I don't see anyone saying that there isn't something there. I know Dr. Glenn Fleisig is doing a lot of research in this area. I've read some of his stuff. I know he has studied pitch count, pressures on the forearm called varus torque and the tendon's response to various pressures. Still, this is a field that is just now being subjected to more research. I'd suggest that interest is due to the money involved with pitchers. I recall reading a study on micro tears a couple of years ago though I don't recall who did the research. I do remember that some of these tears can develop at very young ages and do not heal over time. In fact, the premise of that study was that once that damage was done, it was merely a matter of time. If that is true then the mechanics approach at a later date may have less importance. If not true, and I think we could all agree, mechanics is a great stepping off point.
    Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

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