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Thread: Versatility Hall of Fame project, Group 5

  1. #1
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    Versatility Hall of Fame project, Group 5

    All too often, guys who play multiple poisitions are written off as mere "utility players". Many fit that description, but some can hit reasonably well and make a definite positive defensive contribution. Players are allowed only one OF position. If they have 100 or more games at CF, they're a CF. If not, but the combination of games played in CF and RF are 100 or more, he's a RF. If he has 100 games or more in the OF without being called a CF or RF under this approach, he's a LF.

    For the a guy to make the list as a two position guy, he not only has to have at least 500 games at each of the two positions, but neither can be 1B or LF.

    For a three position guy, he needs at least 100 games at three positons, but only one of those three may be LF or 1B. All told, I have the names of 169 players who are no longer active.

    We will induct any candidate getting 2/3 of the vote (minimum 4 votes to elect),. Anyone getting a majority vote would be guaranteed to stay on the annual ballot . We'll be able to run annual ballots of the holdovers plus any recent retirees who met the leadoff/batting second criteria.

    The list of candidates for the entire project:

    Code:
    Sparky_Adams
    Edgardo_Alfonzo
    Bill_Almon
    Cap_Anson
    Rich_Aurilia
    Dick_Bartell
    Johnny_Bench
    Craig_Biggio
    Jeff_Blauser
    Ossie_Bluege
    Geoff_Blum
    Bobby_Bonilla
    Ray_Boone
    Hubie_Brooks
    Tom_Brookens
    Larry_Brown
    Don_Buford
    Enos_Cabell
    Miguel_Cairo
    Jamey_Carroll
    Juan_Castro
    Dave_Concepcion
    Wid_Conroy
    Alex_Cora
    Craig_Counsell
    Lave_Cross
    Tom_Daly
    Jim_Davenport
    George_Davis
    Ed_Delahanty
    Jim_Delahanty
    Don_Demeter
    Mark_DeRosa
    Brian_Downing
    Jack_Doyle
    Mariano_Duncan
    Jimmy_Dykes
    Damion_Easley
    Bob_Elliott
    Darin_Erstad
    Darrell_Evans
    Buck_Ewing
    Duke_Farrell
    Tony_Fernandez
    Chone_Figgins
    Scott_Fletcher
    Davy_Force
    Hod_Ford
    Jimmie_Foxx
    Julio_Franco
    Jim_Fregosi
    Bernie_Friberg
    Mike_Gallego
    Phil_Garner
    Jim_Gilliam
    Chris_Gomez
    Billy_Goodman
    George_Grantham
    Mark_Grudzielanek
    Frankie_Gustine
    Jerry_Hairston
    Bill_Hallman
    Granny_Hamner
    Toby_Harrah
    Lenny_Harris
    Roy_Hartzell
    Woodie_Held
    Jose_Hernandez
    Buck_Herzog
    Charlie_Hickman
    Solly_Hofman
    Rogers_Hornsby
    John_Hummel
    Gregg_Jefferies
    Howard_Johnson
    Jimmy_Johnston
    King_Kelly
    Bob_Kennedy
    Jeff_Kent
    Jeff_King
    Mark_Koenig
    Mark_Kotsay
    Red_Kress
    Harvey_Kuenn
    Hal_Lanier
    Mike_Lansing
    Frank_LaPorte
    Vance_Law
    Tommy_Leach
    Freddie_Lindstrom
    Felipe_Lopez
    Hector_Lopez
    Mark_Loretta
    Bobby_Lowe
    Jerry_Lumpe
    Rabbit_Maranville
    Dick_McAuliffe
    John_McDonald
    Gil_McDougald
    Mark_McLemore
    Marty_McManus
    Eric_McNair
    Denis_Menke
    Cass_Michaels
    Doggie_Miller
    Dots_Miller
    Paul_Molitor
    Don_Money
    Melvin_Mora
    Keith_Moreland
    John_Morrill
    Danny_Murphy
    Buddy_Myer
    Phil_Nevin
    Jack_O'Connor
    Jose_Offerman
    Ivy_Olson
    Frank_O'Rourke
    Jim_O'Rourke
    Rico_Petrocelli
    Tony_Phillips
    Placido_Polanco
    Nick_Punto
    Joe_Quinn
    Lenny_Randle
    Jeff_Reboulet
    Danny_Richardson
    Hardy_Richardson
    Cal_Ripken
    Bip_Roberts
    Bill_Robinson
    Jackie_Robinson
    Alex_Rodriguez
    Pete_Rose
    Jack_Rowe
    Jerry_Royster
    Pete_Runnels
    Luis_Salazar
    Germany_Schaefer
    Marco_Scutaro
    Joe_Sewell
    Howie_Shanks
    Chris_Speier
    Daryl_Spencer
    Bill_Spiers
    Scott_Spiezio
    Pete_Suder
    B.J._Surhoff
    Bill_Sweeney
    Tommy_Thevenow
    Derrel_Thomas
    Joe_Torre
    Cesar_Tovar
    Terry_Turner
    Juan_Uribe
    Jose_Valentin
    Randy_Velarde
    Jose_Vizcaino
    Honus_Wagner
    Monte_Ward
    Deacon_White
    Ty_Wigginton
    Dick_Williams
    Tony_Womack
    Joel_Youngblood
    Michael_Young
    Robin_Yount
    Todd_Zeile
    Don_Zimmer
    I’ve broken them into 9 groups of 17 and a final 10th group of 16. The group to be voted on will appear in the following post. Voters are free to vote for as few or as many as they chose, though with the suggestion that they vote for an average of two and a half or more per group of 16 or 17.

    Usually, elections will run for a week, though in holiday weeks or simply to maintain the project I may go to reducing the pace to two elections in a three week span. For this election, it will be open until Saturday April 2 at 7 am ET unless otherwise announced in this thread.

    I am going to a 2 week cycle for votes. Either we get at least six votes in that time, or the project ends.

    We have so far inducted (12):
    Code:
    Edgardo Alfonzo
    Craig Biggio
    Don Buford
    Lave Cross
    George Davis
    Buck Ewing
    Tony Fernandez
    Julio Franco
    Phil Garner
    Jim Gilliam
    George Grantham
    Toby Harper
    We have had the following miss out on induction but get at least 50% of the votes cast (5): Wid Conroy, Jim Delahanty, Jimmy Dykes, Chone Figgins, Woodie Held

    Links to previous rounds:
    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...roject-Group-1
    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...-Group-2/page2
    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...roject-Group-3
    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...roject-Group-4
    Last edited by jalbright; 03-18-2017 at 12:27 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  2. #2
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    Here’s the data and the slate of candidates

    Code:
    P	C	1B	2B	3B	SS	LF	CF	RF	OF	WAA	WAR	player
    0	0	18	490	473	459	28	0	4	31	8.0	27.4	Buck_Herzog_
    30	0	394	152	140	23	0	0	0	290	7.6	23.4	Charlie_Hickman_
    0	0	187	198	25	63	77	557	79	702	3.4	17.2	Solly_Hofman_
    0	0	35	1561	192	356	6	1	13	20	97.5	121.6	Rogers_Hornsby_
    0	0	160	548	0	74	0	0	0	293	-2.6	11.8	John_Hummel_
    0	0	380	346	277	0	369	0	0	369	0.3	19.4	Gregg_Jefferies_
    0	0	5	8	1031	273	99	86	36	217	3.6	22.1	Howard_Johnson_
    0	0	49	243	448	178	72	112	177	354	-0.8	16.7	Jimmy_Johnston_
    12	583	25	54	96	90	2	8	742	750	23.0	44.3	King_Kelly_
    0	0	10	2	540	0	204	30	601	821	-17.4	-2.0	Bob_Kennedy_
    0	0	117	2034	157	3	0	0	0	0	26.3	55.2	Jeff_Kent_
    0	0	488	121	586	11	0	0	1	1	1.0	21.5	Jeff_King_
    5	0	4	156	158	747	0	0	1	1	1.5	16.7	Mark_Koenig_
    0	0	134	0	0	0	62	1012	464	1516	-1.2	21.5	Mark_Kotsay_
    4	0	162	59	170	835	22	0	103	124	-3.6	16.6	Red_Kress_
    0	0	33	0	140	748	354	164	343	826	1.3	25.9	Harvey_Kuenn_
    0	0	5	430	131	655	0	0	0	0	-15.1	-0.9	Hal_Lanier_
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  3. #3
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    I'm voting for
    Rogers Hornsby
    King Kelly
    Jeff Kent
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  4. #4
    MY BALLOT

    Piano Legs Hickman
    Solly Hofman
    King Kelly
    Red Kress
    Harvey Kuenn
    .


    19th Century League Champion
    1900s League Champion
    1910s League Champion

    1930s League Division Winner
    1950s League Champion
    1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
    1960s League Division Winner
    1970s League Champion
    1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
    1980s League Champion
    All Time Greats League Champion

  5. #5
    Buck Herzog
    Charlie Hickman
    Rogers Hornsby
    King Kelly
    Harvey Kuenn
    Last edited by jjpm74; 03-20-2017 at 08:25 AM.

  6. #6
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    Buck Herzog - I'm not sure how he isn't making anyone's list, he typically split time between 2 positions a season. This is the versatility HOF not he HOF for guys who played more than one postion.
    Jimmy Johnston - see Herzog, Buck. He actually was versatile.
    King Kelly


    Jeffries and Hojo played multiple positions but not necessarily well.
    Charlie Hickman - despite the name Piano Legs his stats show he had better than league average rf/9 but worse fielding percentages. I'll lump him in with the Hojo/Jeffries crowd.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    Buck Herzog - I'm not sure how he isn't making anyone's list, he typically split time between 2 positions a season. This is the versatility HOF not he HOF for guys who played more than one postion.
    I didn't see his name at the top of the chart. I agree with you and have added Herzog to my ballot.

  8. #8
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    has there been any distinction between those who went their entire career looking for a position they could play well vs. a player who moved around and always gave his team value at that position. Examples of the former would be Bobby Bonilla, Howard Johnson, Gary Sheffield.
    Last edited by sturg1dj; 03-20-2017 at 11:00 AM.
    "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

    -Bill James

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    I didn't see his name at the top of the chart. I agree with you and have added Herzog to my ballot.

    cool.

    Sturj I think it is open to personal interpretation. I think very early or in the planning stages we had a discussion revolving around Johnny Bench.

  10. #10
    Buck Herzog
    Rogers Hornsby
    King Kelly

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    cool.

    Sturj I think it is open to personal interpretation. I think very early or in the planning stages we had a discussion revolving around Johnny Bench.
    IIRC, most of the current (maybe all?) of the participants feel that a player who fielded one position very well and was moved late in their career (like Bench) does not deserve to be in the HOF in this project.

    Sturj, if you or anyone else reading this wants to participate, that would be really great!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    IIRC, most of the current (maybe all?) of the participants feel that a player who fielded one position very well and was moved late in their career (like Bench) does not deserve to be in the HOF in this project.

    Sturj, if you or anyone else reading this wants to participate, that would be really great!
    Maybe it was on who should be on the ballot, when there is a discussion thread on rules suggestions.

    As far as actually being good at multiple positions rather than just being shifted around, I don't recall any direct conversation. Past elections had a column with "Rpos" which was some form of a defensive statistic. I factored that in. My own interpretation of a versatility HOF is that one must be at least decent at multiple positions.

  13. #13
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    "Versatility" means different things to different folks, and thus, we're largely letting the electorate define it. The only restrictions I used were objective, as in requiring at least 100 games at three different positions, provided two were not LF and 1B, or at least 500 games at two different positions, with neither being LF or 1B. I think we also required 1000 games minimum. Those were used to generate the lists, and the rest is up to the voters.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  14. #14
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    I'm most certainly not interested in voting Jimmy Johnston to any HOF, as he's a negative WAA player, i.e., below average. I'm dubious that Herzog has enough WAR to merit that distinction, so I won't vote for him, either. Those aren't standards required of anyone, but they're not prohibited to be used either, and I'm using them. I also like a guy whose rpos plus rfield is above zero, i.e., above average, though I think I'll bend that one for Rose.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  15. #15
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    Jimmy Johnston
    Harvey Kuenn
    Greg Jeffires
    Charlie Hickman
    Solly Hoffman
    Red Kress
    Buck Herzog

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