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Thread: Yes/ No/ Maybe Hall of Fame, 1947 election

  1. #1
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    Yes/ No/ Maybe Hall of Fame, 1947 election

    Welcome to the Yes/No/Maybe Ballot Hall of Fame! In this project, candidates are listed and you can vote for them for this Hall (yes), against allowing them in this Hall (no) or that maybe they belong and maybe they don't (maybe). For Japanese players and Negro Leaguers, you may also use maybe votes as a means of abstaining.


    The rules are as follows:

    1) Player eligibility is the earliest of three years:
    a) Last year played plus five;
    b) Year of death plus two; or
    c) First full season of age 40 or later in which he did not play.

    2) Contributor eligibility is the earliest of two years:
    a) Age 65 year; or
    b) Year of death plus two.

    3) Any year in which there is no new eligible contributor will have no contributor election.

    4) Any year without any new eligible contributors or players will be skipped. If there is a new contributor but no new players, both elections will be held.


    5) Write in votes are not allowed. If there is someone you wish to vote for who is not listed, you may inquire when he becomes eligible and/or nominate him for consideration.

    6) If there is a candidate you would vote to include in the Hall who is not on the list, you are free to nominate him. If I agree he should be added, he will be. If I do not, and at least one other voter is willing to vote for your nominee, he will be added. If not, he will not.

    7) For Negro League and Japanese players, if you wish to abstain, vote maybe. If any player is eliminated by virtue of a voters refusal to do anything but vote no an all players from one or both of those groups, he will be reinstated if the voterís vote had been maybe instead. Any voter determined to have voted in that fashion will only have the maybe or yes options for candidates from that group. Abstentions will be treated as maybe votes.

    8) I will list the players by the year they first appeared on the ballot to assist cut and paste votes. I must request you follow that format in your vote to make my tabulation of the votes easier. There are four possible votes: Yes, which may be signified by the word or just Y in upper or lower case; No, which may also be signified by the word or just N in upper or lower case; Maybe, which may be signified by the word or MM in upper or lower case to distinguish it from No votes; and Abstain, which may be signified by the word or A in upper or lower case.


    9) Candidates will be inducted with the greater of six votes or at least 75% of the vote. The number of votes is determined by the number of yes votes plus one half the maybe votes for any candidate who has already been on at least two ballots. Candidates who receive at least 50% no votes will be removed from the ballot. The number of no votes is determined by the number of no votes plus one half the maybe votes for any candidate who has already been on at least two ballots. After the fifth year on the ballot, the percentage of yes votes needed to stay on the ballot will rise by 3% each election until the 13th year, on the ballot, when the required percentage of yes votes will be 74%. If a player continually remains between 74 and 75% yes votes, he will remain on the ballot.

    10) When voting for a player, we're only considering his play. If he's a pioneer, he'll appear at age 65 or year of death +2 on the contributor list.

    11) If a player is listed on both ballots, you may vote for him in one, both or neither. If a candidate is elected on both ballots, he will be listed as a player. Once a player is elected, he will no longer appear on any ballots.

    12) One other thing to keep in mind: sometimes, contributors had major accomplishments after age 65. Please only credit such candidates with accomplishments as of the year youíre voting in. In 1945, for example, you should not credit Branch Rickey with his move to integrate the game when he hadnít even signed Jackie Robinson yet.

    13) Votes may be changed up until the voting is closed. I do request that you PM me telling me about the change or make a new post in the thread to make sure I do not miss it. If this is not followed, I will attempt to take remedial action, but I will not revoke a declaration someone is elected because someone changed their vote to a less favorable position on a candidate without following this rule.

    14) If a candidate is voted out, there will be a mechanism to renew his eligibility. The candidate needs to wait at least five elections before being reinstated the first time, ten the second, fifteen the third and so forth (the greater of how many years he was credited with being on the ballot the last time or five years plus five years per each previous reinstatements). When the waiting period is over, the greater of three voters in the previous election or one-third the voters in the previous election must indicate they are all willing to a) vote for him in the next election, and b) subject him to the risk of a longer mandatory wait if he gets eliminated from the ballot again. Any reinstated candidate will be treated as in his third year on the ballot since he's already had the opportunity to have his case discussed and considered by the voters.

    15) Elections will typically remain open for a week, though I may extend that period at my discretion. I am inclined to extend the period to try and get a minimum of eight votes. This particular election will be open until five minutes before the posting of the official results after 7 am ET Saturday, March 25.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  2. #2
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    Alphabetical List of inducted players

    Code:
    Pete Alexander
    Cap Anson
    Earl Averill
    Frank (Home Run) Baker
    Dave Bancroft
    Ross Barnes
    Jake Beckley
    John Beckwith
    Charlie Bennett
    Roger Bresnahan
    Dan Brouthers
    Mordecai Brown
    Jesse Burkett
    Max Carey
    Bob Caruthers
    Frank Chance
    Oscar Charleston
    Fred Clarke
    John Clarkson
    Ty Cobb
    Mickey Cochrane
    Eddie Collins
    Jimmy Collins
    Roger Connor
    Stan Coveleski
    Sam Crawford
    Bill Dahlen
    George Davis
    Ed Delahanty
    Martin Dihigo
    Buck Ewing
    Red Faber
    Wes Ferrell
    Elmer Flick
    Rube Foster
    Willie Foster
    Frankie Frisch
    Pud Galvin
    Lou Gehrig
    Charlie Gehringer
    Jack Glasscock
    Goose Goslin
    Frank Grant
    Heinie Groh
    Lefty Grove
    Billy Hamilton
    Gabby Hartnett
    Harry Heilmann
    Paul Hines
    Rogers Hornsby
    Carl Hubbell
    Hughie Jennings
    Bob Johnson
    Home Run Johnson
    Walter Johnson
    Tim Keefe
    Willie Keeler
    Joe Kelley
    King Kelly
    Nap LaJoie
    Pop Lloyd
    Sherry Magee
    Christy Mathewson
    Joe McGinnity
    John McGraw
    Bid McPhee
    Cal McVey
    Jose Mendez
    Kid Nichols
    Alejandro Oms
    Jim O'Rourke
    Lip Pike
    Eddie Plank
    Old Hoss Radbourn
    Dick Redding
    Bullet Joe Rogan
    Amos Rusie
    Babe Ruth
    Louis Santop
    Joe Sewell
    Urban Shocker
    Al Simmons
    George Sisler
    Al Spalding
    Tris Speaker
    Joe Start
    Turkey Stearnes
    Mule Suttles
    Bill Terry
    Sam Thompson
    Joe Tinker
    Cristobal Torriente
    Dazzy Vance
    Rube Waddell
    Honus Wagner
    Bobby Wallace
    Ed Walsh
    Paul Waner
    John Montgomery Ward
    Zack Wheat
    Deacon White
    Smoky Joe Williams
    Vic Willis
    George Wright
    Cy Young
    Alphabetical list of inducted contributors

    Code:
    Iso Abe
    Doc Adams
    Doug Allison
    Ed Barrow
    Henry Chadwick
    Charlie Comiskey
    Jim Creighton
    Tom Connolly
    Jack Dunn
    Al Munro Elias
    Clark Griffith
    Ned Hanlon
    John Heydler
    Millwe Huggins
    William Hulbert
    Ban Johnson
    Bill Klem
    Kenesaw Landis
    Joe Leggett
    Connie Mack
    Tim Murnane
    Hank O'Day
    Dickey Pearce
    Al Reach
    Francis Richter
    Branch Rickey
    Frank Selee
    Ben Shibe
    Al Spalding
    C. I. Taylor
    Louis Wadsworth
    William Wheaton
    Sol White
    J L Wilkinson
    Harry Wright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  3. #3
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    Inducted players by year inducted

    Code:
    1894--Ross Barnes, Al Spalding, Joe Start, Deacon White, George Wright
    1895--Charlie Bennett, Old Hoss Radbourn
    1896--Paul Hines
    1897--Pud Galvin
    1898--Cap Anson, Roger Connor, Jack Glasscock, Tim Keefe, King Kelly
    1899--Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, John Montgomery Ward
    1900--Buck Ewing, Bid McPhee
    1903--Cal McVey
    1905--Dan Brouthers, Jim O'Rourke
    1906--Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
    1907--Lip Pike
    1908--Ed Delahanty, Frank Grant, Sam Thompson
    1909--Jesse Burkett
    1910--Jake Beckley, Kid Nichols
    1911--Jimmy Collins, George Davis, John McGraw
    1912--Bill Dahlen, Joe Kelley, Joe McGinnity, Cy Young
    1913--Willie Keeler
    1915--Elmer Flick, Rube Waddell, Vic Willis
    1916--Fred Clarke
    1917--Mordecai Brown, Home Run Johnson, Nap LaJoie
    1918--Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner
    1919--Frank Chance, Bobby Wallace
    1920--Roger Bresnahan
    1921--Sam Crawford, Christy Mathewson, Joe Tinker
    1922--Hughie Jennings, Ed Walsh
    1924--Sherry Magee
    1927--Frank (Home Run) Baker
    1928--Walter Johnson
    1929--Ty Cobb, Rube Foster, Tris Speaker, Zack Wheat
    1930--Stan Coveleski, Heinie Groh
    1931--Pete Alexander, Max Carey, Eddie Collins, Louis Santop
    1933--Dave Bancroft, Pop Lloyd, Urban Shocker, Cristobal torriente, Smoky Joe Williams
    1934--Red Faber. Jose Mendez, George Sisler
    1935--Harry Heilmann
    1936--Babe Ruth, Dazzy Vance
    1938--Rogers Hornsby, Alejandro Oms, Joe Sewell
    1939--Frankie Frisch, Bullet Joe Rogan, Bill Terry
    1941--Goose Goslin
    1942--Oscar Charleston, Mickey Cochrane, Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett
    1943--Earl Averill, John Beckwith, Willie Foster, Dick Redding, Turkey Stearnes
    1944--Lou Gehrig, Charlie Gehringer, Carl Hubbell
    1945--Al Simmons, Mule Suttles
    1946--Martin Dihigo, Wes Ferrell, Bob Johnson, Paul Waner
    Inducted contributors by year inducted

    Code:
    1894--Doc Adams, Henry Chadwick, William Hulbert
    1896--Jim Creighton, William Wheaton
    1897--Harry Wright
    1903--Dickey Pearce, Ben Shibe
    1905--Al Reach
    1908--Joe Leggett, Louis Wadsworth
    1911--Frank Selee
    1915--Al Spalding
    1919--Doug Allison
    1920--Tim Murnane, Francis Richter
    1922--Ned Hanlon
    1924--Charlie Comiskey, C. I. Taylor
    1926--Hank O'Day
    1927--Connie Mack
    1929--John Heydler, Ban Johnson
    1931--Miller Huggins, Kenesaw Landis
    1932--Iso Abe, Ed Barrow, Jack Dunn
    1933--Clark Griffith, Sol White
    1937--Tom Connolly, Al Munro Elias
    1941--Bill Klem
    1943--J L Wilkinson
    1946--Branch Rickey
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  4. #4
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    We have twelve new players to consider:

    Bell, Cool Papa
    Bridges, Tommy
    Cronin, Joe
    Danning, Harry
    Davis, Curt
    Derringer. Paul
    Lyons. Ted
    Rolfe, Red
    Scales. Tubby
    Selkirk, George
    Waner, Lloyd
    Werber, Billy

    There are two new contributors:

    Krichell, Paul
    Street, Gabby.

    The link to the prior election is here: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...-1945-election
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  5. #5
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    The ballot, organized by first year on the ballot to help with cut and paste voting:

    The players


    Lazzeri, Tony

    Wilson, Jud

    Bell, Cool Papa
    Bridges, Tommy
    Cronin, Joe
    Danning, Harry
    Davis, Curt
    Derringer. Paul
    Lyons. Ted
    Rolfe, Red
    Scales. Tubby
    Selkirk, George
    Waner, Lloyd
    Werber, Billy

    The contributors

    Rice, Grantland

    Bolden, Ed

    Krichell, Paul
    Street, Gabby
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  6. #6
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    My ballot:


    The players


    Lazzeri, Tony--n

    Wilson, Jud--y

    Bell, Cool Papa--y
    Bridges, Tommy--M
    Cronin, Joe--y
    Danning, Harry--n
    Davis, Curt--n
    Derringer. Paul--n
    Lyons. Ted--y
    Rolfe, Red--n
    Scales. Tubby--M
    Selkirk, George --n
    Waner, Lloyd--n
    Werber, Billy--n

    The contributors

    Rice, Grantland--n

    Bolden, Ed--y

    Krichell, Paul--M
    Street, Gabby--n
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  7. #7
    The players

    Lazzeri, Tony--YES

    Wilson, Jud--YES

    Bell, Cool Papa--YES
    Bridges, Tommy--MAYBE
    Cronin, Joe--YES
    Danning, Harry--NO
    Davis, Curt--NO
    Derringer. Paul--MAYBE
    Lyons. Ted--YES
    Rolfe, Red--NO
    Scales. Tubby--NO
    Selkirk, George --NO
    Waner, Lloyd--NO
    Werber, Billy--NO


    The contributors

    Rice, Grantland--YES

    Bolden, Ed--NO

    Krichell, Paul--NO
    Street, Gabby--NO
    .


    19th Century League Champion
    1900s League Champion
    1910s League Champion

    1930s League Division Winner
    1950s League Champion
    1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
    1960s League Division Winner
    1970s League Champion
    1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
    1980s League Champion
    All Time Greats League Champion

  8. #8
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    Lazzeri, Tony - M
    Wilson, Jud - Y
    Bell, Cool Papa - Y
    Bridges, Tommy - M
    Cronin, Joe - Y
    Danning, Harry - N
    Davis, Curt - N
    Derringer. Paul - N
    Lyons. Ted - Y (exceptionaly underrated HOFer)
    Rolfe, Red - N
    Scales. Tubby - N
    Selkirk, George - N
    Waner, Lloyd - N
    Werber, Billy - N



    Rice, Grantland - Y
    Bolden, Ed - M
    Krichell, Paul - N
    Street, Gabby - N
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

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  9. #9
    The Players:

    Lazzeri, Tony--Yes

    Wilson, Jud--Yes

    Bell, Cool Papa--Yes
    Bridges, Tommy--No
    Cronin, Joe--Yes
    Danning, Harry--No
    Davis, Curt--No
    Derringer, Paul--No
    Lyons, Ted--Yes
    Rolfe, Red--No
    Scales, Tubby--No
    Selkirk, George--No
    Waner, Lloyd--No
    Werber, Billy--No

    The Contributors:

    Rice, Grantland--No

    Bolden, Ed--Yes

    Krichell, Paul--No
    Street, Gabby--No

  10. #10
    Lazzeri, Tony--Maybe

    Wilson, Jud--Yes

    Bell, Cool Papa--Maybe
    Bridges, Tommy--Maybe
    Cronin, Joe--Yes
    Danning, Harry--No
    Davis, Curt--No - got started too late, MLB career 30-42 very impressive.
    Derringer, Paul--No
    Lyons, Ted--Yes
    Rolfe, Red--No
    Scales, Tubby--No
    Selkirk, George--No
    Waner, Lloyd--No
    Werber, Billy--No

    The Contributors:

    Rice, Grantland--Yes

    Bolden, Ed--Yes

    Krichell, Paul--No
    Street, Gabby--No

  11. #11
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    Lazzeri, Tony -N

    Wilson, Jud -Y

    Bell, Cool Papa -Y
    Bridges, Tommy -M
    Cronin, Joe -M
    Danning, Harry -N
    Davis, Curt -N
    Derringer. Paul -Y
    Lyons. Ted -M
    Rolfe, Red -N
    Scales. Tubby -N
    Selkirk, George -N
    Waner, Lloyd -N
    Werber, Billy -N

    The contributors

    Rice, Grantland -N

    Bolden, Ed -M

    Krichell, Paul -N
    Street, Gabby -N
    Last edited by Sockeye; 03-19-2017 at 09:23 AM.
    My dream ballpark dimensions
    LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
    RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
    Location....San Diego

  12. #12
    Players
    Tony Lazzeri - Yes

    Jud Wilson - Yes

    Cool Papa Bell - Maybe
    Tommy Bridges - Maybe
    Joe Cronin - Yes
    Harry Danning - No
    Curt Davis - No
    Paul Derringer - Maybe
    Ted Lyons - Yes
    Red Rolfe - No
    Tubby Scales - Maybe
    George Selkirk - No
    Lloyd Waner - No
    Billy Werber - No


    Contributors
    Grantland Rice - Yes

    Ed Bolden - Yes

    Paul Krichell - Maybe
    Gabby Street - No
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

  13. #13
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    PLAYERS

    Lazzeri, Tony - MAYBE

    Wilson, Jud - YES

    Bell, Cool Papa - YES
    Bridges, Tommy - NO
    Cronin, Joe - YES
    Danning, Harry - NO
    Davis, Curt - NO
    Derringer, Paul - NO
    Lyons, Ted - YES
    Rolfe, Red - NO
    Scales, Tubby - NO
    Selkirk, George - NO
    Waner, Lloyd - NO
    Werber, Billy - NO

    CONTRIBUTORS
    Rice, Grantland - MAYBE

    Bolden, Ed - NO

    Krichell, Paul - MAYBE
    Street, Gabby - NO
    Nos Amours! ... 1969-2004

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye View Post
    Lazzeri, Tony -N

    Wilson, Jud -M

    Bell, Cool Papa -M
    Bridges, Tommy -M
    Cronin, Joe -M
    Danning, Harry -N
    Davis, Curt -N
    Derringer. Paul -Y
    Lyons. Ted -M
    Rolfe, Red -N
    Scales. Tubby -N
    Selkirk, George -N
    Waner, Lloyd -N
    Werber, Billy -N

    The contributors

    Rice, Grantland -N

    Bolden, Ed -M

    Krichell, Paul -N
    Street, Gabby -N
    Paul Derringer > Ted Lyons and Joe Cronin?

    Interesting.
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    Paul Derringer > Ted Lyons and Joe Cronin?

    Interesting.
    I don't have any of them in my personal HOF. Derringer is the closest at #241 so I voted for him. Lyons isn't far behind at #244, Bridges #268 and Cronin #280 so I gave them maybe's. Nobody else is in my top 300.
    My dream ballpark dimensions
    LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
    RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
    Location....San Diego

  16. #16
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    VOTE CHANGE: I changed Jud Wilson and Cool Papa Bell from M to Y. While I don't have them in my personal HOF I do have them ranked #111 & 139 respectively on my greatest players in history list.
    My dream ballpark dimensions
    LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
    RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
    Location....San Diego

  17. #17
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    The players

    Lazzeri, Tony - no

    Wilson, Jud - yes

    Bell, Cool Papa - yes
    Bridges, Tommy - no
    Cronin, Joe - yes
    Danning, Harry - no
    Davis, Curt - no
    Derringer. Paul - no
    Lyons. Ted - yes
    Rolfe, Red - no
    Scales. Tubby - no
    Selkirk, George - no
    Waner, Lloyd - no
    Werber, Billy - no

    The contributors

    Rice, Grantland - yes, what exactly is the No argument is it that he also wrote about college football? He was the first radio broadcaster for the WS, wrote for the NY Herald Tribune during the McGraw Mathewson era and as far as I know was the premier sportswriter during an age when baseball was king.

    Bolden, Ed - no

    Krichell, Paul - yes
    Street, Gabby - no

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye View Post
    VOTE CHANGE: I changed Jud Wilson and Cool Papa Bell from M to Y. While I don't have them in my personal HOF I do have them ranked #111 & 139 respectively on my greatest players in history list.
    I'm just curious. What is the different between your "personal HOF" and your "greatest players in history list"?

    Anyone else who distinguishes between these two things, feel free to respond to the question as well, please.
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chadwick View Post
    I'm just curious. What is the different between your "personal HOF" and your "greatest players in history list"?

    Anyone else who distinguishes between these two things, feel free to respond to the question as well, please.
    There might be some guys like, say, Lou Brock who one could see as a HOFer in narrative-to-the-game sense but not quite as high in terms of player value/greatness, etc. Sockeye seems to have a much larger overlap then is normal. I mean - for the #111 player ever not to be in the HOF - there must be some big-time subjective elements at work.
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    There might be some guys like, say, Lou Brock who one could see as a HOFer in narrative-to-the-game sense but not quite as high in terms of player value/greatness, etc. Sockeye seems to have a much larger overlap then is normal. I mean - for the #111 player ever not to be in the HOF - there must be some big-time subjective elements at work.
    Due to LQ adjustments and missing data I don't have negro leaguers or Japanese players in my personal HOF. However for the purpose of this project it only make sense to use the greatest player list which looks at NL, JL, ML & PCL players. So it is a much more inclusive list.
    My dream ballpark dimensions
    LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
    RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
    Location....San Diego

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