But of course Tenace was valued highly. I just said not as much. Which you agree with considering how you said the idea of Tenace-A=as-HOFer is also revisionism. JR seems to be the only guy who thinks he was trash. Like you said - he is now considered by many to be a HOFer or close to it. What that the case when he was active? of course not. That is where the perceived "revisionism" comes in and the perception of his OB% was a major part of that. I don't see how any of this is debatable. But again - I have never been talking about the value of OB - just the perception thereof.
So...We both agree that the perception of OB% has changed. We both agree tht Tenace was not considered a scrub when active. we both agree that his perception has improved over time. I am assuming that we both agree that OB% is the major reasn for that.
The only thing we disagree on is if the perception chance of OB% is warranted - which isn't even what I (or we ) are talking about here.
Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 04-21-2017 at 04:34 AM.
I retract the times I've called Gene Tenace "a borderline major leaguer." That was absolutely hyperbole.
Just blame that guy Jack Daniels
"By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)
ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF
We're also going to need to have a conversation about why "patience at the plate", isn't exactly a robust item for Cooperstown. Getting a base hit will always be more difficult than a walk, and you don't need plate discipline to be a deadly hitter. In fact, unpredictability can be an asset. Agree with Gene Tenace as a terrific player with those dynastic A's teams of the 70s, but time hasn't changed my opinion of his career.
I once read a suggestion to the effect that had Hoyt Wilhelm been used as a starting pitcher, he may have wound up as the Greatest pitcher of all time. That using him as a reliever and having him constantly coming in with runners on base, isn't the most logical use of a knuckleball pitcher with a tendency to throw WP's and PB's. (Keeping him buried in the low minors for years probably didn't help him either unless it allowed him to slowly develop his skills.)
I don't know where I read this, might even have been here on some long forgotten / buried thread. I see some logic in it though and do know he was very effective when given chances to start.
It seems almost every other player that got mentioned on this thread was chosen for his high OBP (Including my choice of Phillies OF Roy Thomas) so this might be a way to get the thread moving in a different direction and away from Gene Tenace. Unless someone else suggests Steve Garvey is a good candidate for this thread lol !!
But maybe that's just how we all picture it (or I picture it anyway) and that the most effective pitcher of all time would or at least could be someone with off-speed breaking stuff that he can consistently get strikes with, but at the same time, those throws are such that no one can do much with them even when they make contact.
I wish I could recall where I read that (in my previous post). Going to try his SABR Bio and see what it says.
EDIT: His SABR Bio falls short of making any claim of him being the GOAT, but it does suggest that had he been a starter he would have had an amazing career. And had he been given a shot earlier, when he was winning 20 for Mooresville in back to back years and probably pitching with almost no difference as he would later in MLB.... who knows?
Link to Wilhelm's SABR Bio: http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/635428bb
Last edited by Calif_Eagle; 04-23-2017 at 03:21 PM.
I think if Harlond Clift today he would be highly valued. He was a great third baseman (power, walks, RBI man, scored a ton of runs) who played his last season at age 32. He played 12 seasons, only 9 full seasons. From 1934-1942 he averaged:
.280/.399/.465, 120 OPS+, 21 HR, 91 RBI, 118 R, 35 doubles, 8 triples, 113 BB, 275 TB, 5.0 WAR (per 162 G)
In 1936 Clift scored 145 runs. I believe that is the most runs scored by a third baseman to this day since John McGraw's 156 runs scored in 1894.
Harlond Clift General Thread
Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis