View Poll Results: Best age-23 season?

Voters
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  • Ty Cobb 1910

    1 9.09%
  • Eddie Collins 1910

    0 0%
  • Joe Cronin 1930

    0 0%
  • Troy Glaus 2000

    0 0%
  • Ken Griffey Jr. 1993

    0 0%
  • Reggie Jackson 1969

    0 0%
  • Mickey Mantle 1955

    0 0%
  • Willie Mays 1954

    5 45.45%
  • Stan Musial 1944

    0 0%
  • Mel Ott 1932

    0 0%
  • Albert Pujols 2003

    0 0%
  • Cal Ripken Jr. 1984

    0 0%
  • Grady Sizemore 2006

    0 0%
  • Ted Williams 1942

    3 27.27%
  • Arky Vaughan 1935

    1 9.09%
  • Others

    1 9.09%
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Thread: Best age 23 season by a position player

  1. #1
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    Best age 23 season by a position player

    So here we'll take the top 15 seasons at age 23 by fWAR, and vote for what you think is the best season out of those. The age is based on the age shown on Fangraphs, and here's the link to the list of best age 23 seasons:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...lter=&players=

    The Candidates:
    Ty Cobb 1910
    Eddie Collins 1910
    Joe Cronin 1930
    Troy Glaus 2000
    Ken Griffey Jr. 1993
    Reggie Jackson 1969
    Mickey Mantle 1955
    Willie Mays 1954
    Stan Musial 1944
    Mel Ott 1932
    Albert Pujols 2003
    Cal Ripken Jr. 1984
    Grady Sizemore 2006
    Ted Williams 1942
    Arky Vaughan 1935
    Great pitching always beat great hitting. Clutch hitting always beat great pitching.

  2. #2
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    Vaughan had a heck of a season.
    “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” – Walter Lippmann

  3. #3
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    Best age 23 season by a position player

    It's amazing that of all those players, only Glaus and Sizemore didn't pan out to have a HOF career. You'd think more on that list would've dropped off or gotten hurt as their careers moved forward.


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  4. #4
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    Willie Mays, 1954.
    Most Underrated:Al Simmons, Keith Hernandez, Carlos Beltran
    Most Overrated: Kirby Puckett, Catfish Hunter, Jack Morris
    Most Overrated for being "Underrated": Bobby Grich, Gene Tenace, Alan Trammell
    Most Underrated for being "Overrated": Roberto Clemente, Derek Jeter, Cal Ripken Jr.

  5. #5
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    I went with Mays. Reggie Jackson's season was as I was growing up one for the ages but Pujols equals him in the power department and crushes everything else. A totally overlooked season in Joe Cronin 1930 127 R 126 RBI playing SS with a slash line of 346/422/513. Yowza, even for the probable high water mark season for offense back in the 20s/30s.

  6. #6
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    Honorable mention to Babe Ruth in 1918, who led the league in home runs though he was still primarily used a pitcher (and a damn good one at that).
    Most Underrated:Al Simmons, Keith Hernandez, Carlos Beltran
    Most Overrated: Kirby Puckett, Catfish Hunter, Jack Morris
    Most Overrated for being "Underrated": Bobby Grich, Gene Tenace, Alan Trammell
    Most Underrated for being "Overrated": Roberto Clemente, Derek Jeter, Cal Ripken Jr.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by 1905 Giants View Post
    Vaughan had a heck of a season.
    Definitely. I am still going with Williams again, for the second "age" in a row, but Arky Vaughan and Joe Jackson have very good seasons. Ty Cob and Willie Mays round out my Top 5 23-year-olds.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    Honorable mention to Babe Ruth in 1918, who led the league in home runs though he was still primarily used a pitcher (and a damn good one at that).
    Indeed. Truly one of the most valuable seasons of all time all things considered. WAR cannot come close to capturing its entirety
    "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

    ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    Definitely. I am still going with Williams again, for the second "age" in a row, but Arky Vaughan and Joe Jackson have very good seasons. Ty Cob and Willie Mays round out my Top 5 23-year-olds.
    --Strange that Fangraphs and BB-ref disagree on Jackson's age. FG has him born in July 1889, so 1913 is his age-23 season. BBR has him two years older, so 1911 is his age-23 season.
    --Trout is 23 this year and is only .1 WAR behind Sizemore, so he should probably be in this poll.
    --Ruth in 1918 was not "primarily used a pitcher". He played only 20 of his 95 G at pitcher. Yes, he was the team's #4 starter, but only five teammates had more PA. Per FG he had 5.2 WAR as a position player and 1.5 as a pitcher. That year was war-shortened so the Sawx played only 126 games. Prorating his 6.7 WAR to a 154 game season adjusts his WAR to 8.2, putting him in the top 15 for 23-year-old position players.
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  10. #10
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    I would actually vote for Jose Canseco. He had monster offensive numbers in a year dominated by pitching and threw in 40 steals to boot.

    I was looking for Jimmie Foxx on the list, then realized he actually had an off year at age 23, in the middle of a series of monster seasons. I wonder what happened to him that year.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    --Strange that Fangraphs and BB-ref disagree on Jackson's age. FG has him born in July 1889, so 1913 is his age-23 season. BBR has him two years older, so 1911 is his age-23 season.
    Interesting. Some sources state he was born in 1888. I'm inclined to say 1889 is a bit late. If it were true, that would mean Jackson didn't make Cleveland's squad full time until he was 25. For a player of his ability, that doesn't make sense. Players didn't break into the majors that late back then, especially those with fewer options. And all of Cleveland's other outfielders in 1910 sucked. Nobody was blocking his spot there.

  12. #12
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    Has to be Vaughan- highest BA for any NL SS ever. Highest OBP ever by a pirate or SS- Broke the Pirate HR record
    Runners up Al Simmons, Joe Jackson, Williams & Mays

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    --Strange that Fangraphs and BB-ref disagree on Jackson's age. FG has him born in July 1889, so 1913 is his age-23 season. BBR has him two years older, so 1911 is his age-23 season.
    You find that strange? They don't even agree on how to calculate WAR. I find that strange.
    There are two kinds of people in this game - those who have been humbled, and those who will be. - Terry Collins

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
    You find that strange? They don't even agree on how to calculate WAR. I find that strange.
    It's actually pretty clear why this is so. From BB-Ref "WAR Explained":

    There is no one way to determine WAR. There are hundreds of steps to make this calculation, and dozens of places where reasonable people can disagree on the best way to implement a particular part of the framework. We have taken the utmost care and study at each step in the process, and believe all of our choices are well reasoned and defensible. But WAR is necessarily an approximation and will never be as precise or accurate as one would like.
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    It's actually pretty clear why this is so. From BB-Ref "WAR Explained":
    "There is no one way to determine WAR"? Yet many people take it as gospel, and look down their noses at those who don't buy into it.

    So which WAR is the right WAR? Which WAR is official? I see all these threads comparing and ranking payers here based on WAR. Are they using fWAR or bWAR?
    I've asked these questions before, and have yet to get a satisfactory answer.
    There are two kinds of people in this game - those who have been humbled, and those who will be. - Terry Collins

  16. #16
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    And other thread has become a WAR war.


    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    And other thread has become a WAR war.


    I feel your pain. But you can't get through a discussion about great players etc without a huge number of people using WAR if not exclusively then as the main way to judge the players being discussed.

    So for those of us who don't buy into the flawed theoretical formula, every thread becomes a WAR thread.


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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    Interesting. Some sources state he was born in 1888. I'm inclined to say 1889 is a bit late. If it were true, that would mean Jackson didn't make Cleveland's squad full time until he was 25. For a player of his ability, that doesn't make sense. Players didn't break into the majors that late back then, especially those with fewer options. And all of Cleveland's other outfielders in 1910 sucked. Nobody was blocking his spot there.
    Jackson didn't want to break into the majors. He hated cities. He famously skipped a train when he was playing with the Athletics and Mack had to retrieve him. Jackson would have been happy to play on mill teams and live a peasant existence had Mack not brought him back and eventually sold him (I think Jackson preferred Cleveland but I'm not sure).
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky5 View Post
    Jackson didn't want to break into the majors. He hated cities. He famously skipped a train when he was playing with the Athletics and Mack had to retrieve him. Jackson would have been happy to play on mill teams and live a peasant existence had Mack not brought him back and eventually sold him (I think Jackson preferred Cleveland but I'm not sure).
    Like in Hoboken, NJ?

    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky5 View Post
    Jackson didn't want to break into the majors. He hated cities. He famously skipped a train when he was playing with the Athletics and Mack had to retrieve him. Jackson would have been happy to play on mill teams and live a peasant existence had Mack not brought him back and eventually sold him (I think Jackson preferred Cleveland but I'm not sure).
    Kinda reminds me of Roger Maris, who also played for an Athletics team. Roger was completely content to stay in Kansas City the rest of his career once Cleveland traded him to the Athletics. He bought a house there, lived around some of his buddies from the team (Bob Cerv, Whitey Herzog), and his kids were growing up there. He wanted nothing to do with going to New York, and actually kept his home in KC.
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