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Thread: Top Ten by Position: Round Five

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    Top Ten by Position: Round Five

    As many regulars on here know, I crank out this perennial project to see where we stand on the top ten players ranked by order of position. The first eight rounds are designed for the position players. The ninth and tenth rounds concern starting and relief pitchers, respectively, with the former being ranked 1-15. In the final round, voters submit ballots containing their top ten Negro League players as well as their top 5 Negro League pitchers.

    Anyone who played professional American baseball since 1871 is eligible. This essentially excludes Japanese Leaguers simply for the sake of consistency, though players with American experience are certainly eligible. When considering a player, please consider their career accomplishments and not just their performance at their position.

    Each player is eligible for only one round. Furthermore, there is no DH round, so such players are elibgle for the positions in which they've fielded the most frequently. Thus, the following multi-positional players are considered for these listed positions:

    Frank Thomas- 1B
    Harmon Killebrew- 1B
    Rod Carew- 2B
    Alex Rodriguez- SS
    Ernie Banks- SS
    Robin Yount- SS
    Dick Allen- 3B
    Edgar Martinez- 3B
    Paul Molitor- 3B
    Stan Musial- LF
    Pete Rose- LF
    Willie Stargell- LF

    When voting, please indicate the number values next to each name (10 points for first place, 9 points for second, etc.).
    ------------------------------
    Shortstop time. For those who were asking, Yount is a SS.
    Code:
    	2008	                2009	       2010
    1	Wagner (148)	Wagner (110)	Wagner (158)
    2	A-Rod (133)	A-Rod (77)	Vaughan (116)
    3	Lloyd (103)**	Vaughan (72)	Ripken (104)
    4	Vaughan (101)	Ripken (65)	A-Rod (102)
    5	Ripken (88)	Yount (62)	Lloyd (79)**
    6	Banks (64)	Lloyd (61)**	Yount (73)
    7	Yount (50)	Banks (41)	Banks (71)
    8	Larkin (30)	Davis (26)	Davis (47)
    9	Cronin (22)	Jeter (24)	Jeter (39)
    10	G. Davis (22)	O. Smith (19)	Larkin (30)
    		           Larkin (19)
    Code:
    	2011	                2012	       2013
    1	Wagner (214)	Wagner (160)	Wagner (259)
    2	A-Rod (180)	A-Rod (144)	Ripken (187)
    3	Ripken (153)	Vaughan (117)	Vaughan (187)
    4	Vaughan (129)	Ripken (113)	A-Rod (179)
    5	Banks (99)	Yount (83)	Banks (123)
    6	Yount (96)	Banks (73)	Jeter (111)
    7	Lloyd (85)**	Davis (44)	Yount (93)
    8	Jeter (82)	Jeter (42)	Larkin (70)
    9	Davis (41)	Cronin (32)	Davis (58)
    10	Appling (35)	Larkin (31)	Smith (51)
    Last edited by Tyrus4189Cobb; 03-22-2014 at 08:13 PM.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

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    Last round's results:

    1. Mike Schmidt- 246 pts
    2. Eddie Mathews- 219 pts
    3. George Brett- 196 pts
    4. Wade Boggs- 169 pts
    5. Chipper Jones- 156 pts
    6. Brooks Robinson- 90 pts
    7. Scott Rolen- 74 pts
    8. Ron Santo- 63 pts
    9. Frank Baker- 58 pts
    10. Adrian Beltre- 33 pts
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

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    1. Honus Wagner - 10
    2. Alex Rodriguez - 9
    3. Cal Ripken - 8
    4. George Davis - 7
    5. Arky Vaughan - 6
    6. Lou Boudreau - 5
    7. Barry Larkin - 4
    8. Ozzie Smith - 3
    9. Luke Appling - 2
    10. Alan Trammell - 1
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

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    In last year's SS round, was it Young or Yount who made the top 10?
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    Shortstop time. For those who were asking, Young is a SS.
    Cy
    Cliff
    Delmon
    Michael
    Eric
    Dmitri
    Chris


    Which Young?
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

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    I meant Yount, not Young.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

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    1. Honus Wagner -10
    2. Alex Rodriguez-9
    3. Cal Ripken Jr. -8
    4. Arky Vaughan -7
    5. Robin Yount -6
    6. George Davis -5
    7. Ernie Banks -4
    8. Barry Larkin -3
    9. Luke Appling-2
    10. Ozzie Smith -1
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  8. #8
    [2. John Henry Lloyd - 9]

    1. Honus Wagner - 10
    2. Cal Ripken Jr. - 9
    3. Ernie Banks - 8
    4. Derek Jeter - 7
    5. Barry Larkin - 6
    6. Robin Yount - 5
    7. George Davis - 4
    8. Joe Cronin - 3
    9. Arky Vaughan - 2
    10. Lou Boudreau - 1

    11. Ozzie Smith
    12. John Montgomery Ward
    13. Jack Glasscock
    14. Luke Appling
    15. Alan Trammell
    16. Bill Dahlen
    17. Bobby Wallace
    18. Nomar Garciaparra
    19. Joe Sewell
    20. Bert Campaneris

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    ReDOING MY LIST
    Last edited by JR Hart; 03-25-2014 at 12:31 PM.
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    1. Honus Wagner
    2. Arky Vaughan
    3. George Davis
    4. Ernie Banks
    5. Joe Cronin
    6. Cal Ripken Jr.
    7. Robin Yount
    8. Barry Larkin
    9. Derek Jeter
    10. Luke Appling

    Subject to change.
    Last edited by 1905 Giants; 03-26-2014 at 07:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    1 Cal Ripken Jr. - 10
    2 Derek Jeter - 9
    3 George Davis - 8
    4 Barry Larkin - 7
    5 Alan Trammel -6
    6 Ozzie Smith-5
    7 Luis Aparicio-4
    8 Luke Appling -3
    9 Arky Vaughan -2
    10 Bobby Wallace 1

    i'm staying with my pattern of not ranking multi-positional players
    Even though Wagner had 4x more games at SS than any other position?

    What is your cutoff for GP at another position to make a player ineligible?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    Even though Wagner had 4x more games at SS than any other position?

    What is your cutoff for GP at another position to make a player ineligible?
    I've re-ranked, since you quoted me and removed some players, including Ripken. I set a standard of 80% of one's games in the field. Obviously, Wagner is a better baseball player than the rest. I got the idea after seeing Edgar almost make the 3B list.

    I guess if we are going to rank by position, then that should a huge factor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    Even though Wagner had 4x more games at SS than any other position?

    What is your cutoff for GP at another position to make a player ineligible?
    George Davis had 1374 games at SS compared to 989 at other positions. Is he not a multi-position player?
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

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    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    I've re-ranked, since you quoted me and removed some players, including Ripken. I set a standard of 80% of one's games in the field. Obviously, Wagner is a better baseball player than the rest. I got the idea after seeing Edgar almost make the 3B list.

    I guess if we are going to rank by position, then that should a huge factor.
    And Ripken continues to be, and I suspect, always will be, one of the most overrated players of all-time.
    "You guys are my family. I am very grateful I have been led to this beautiful place and all the warm members who have been so kind to me. I feel I have made a lot of friends, and learned tons about baseball. To me, Fever is too good to be true, and don't know how I'd fill the vacuum if it ever went away. Thanks to so many for a reason to be happy every day. Just can't repay you guys." - Bill Burgess

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    And Ripken continues to be, and I suspect, always will be, one of the most overrated players of all-time.
    Heartily seconded by me.
    “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” – Walter Lippmann

    "Fill in any figure you want for that boy [Mantle]. Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    George Davis had 1374 games at SS compared to 989 at other positions. Is he not a multi-position player?
    Yes, he was also removed. I should have cleared my original post, while I was double checking.
    If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    I've re-ranked, since you quoted me and removed some players, including Ripken. I set a standard of 80% of one's games in the field. Obviously, Wagner is a better baseball player than the rest. I got the idea after seeing Edgar almost make the 3B list.

    I guess if we are going to rank by position, then that should a huge factor.
    Hey - as long as you are consistent...
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  18. #18
    1: Honus Wagner-10 pts.
    2: Alex Rodriguez-9 pts.
    3: Cal Ripken-8 pts.
    4: Arky Vaughan-7 pts.
    5: George Davis-6 pts.
    6: Ozzie Smith-5 pts.
    7: Barry Larkin-4 pts.
    8: Alan Trammell-3 pts.
    9: Luke Appling-2 pts.
    10: Robin Yount-1 pt.
    Last edited by NJRob65; 03-23-2014 at 09:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    1 Derek Jeter - 10
    2 Barry Larkin - 9
    3 Alan Trammel -8
    4 Ozzie Smith-7
    5 Luis Aparicio-6
    6 Luke Appling -5
    7 Arky Vaughan -4
    8 Dave Concepcion-3
    9 Rabbit Maranville -2
    10 Jack Glasscock-1



    i'm staying with my pattern of not ranking multi-positional players. I set a standard of 80% games at SS to be rated. I know that the OP says that multi positional players are eligible, but that doesn't mean that one has to rank them.
    I don't think I should have to keep pointing this out, but:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    When considering a player, please consider their career accomplishments and not just their performance at their position.
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky5 View Post
    [2. John Henry Lloyd - 9]

    1. Honus Wagner - 10
    2. Cal Ripken Jr. - 9
    3. Ernie Banks - 8
    4. Derek Jeter - 7
    5. Barry Larkin - 6
    6. Robin Yount - 5
    7. George Davis - 4
    8. Joe Cronin - 3
    9. Arky Vaughan - 2
    10. Lou Boudreau - 1

    11. Ozzie Smith
    12. John Montgomery Ward
    13. Jack Glasscock
    14. Luke Appling
    15. Alan Trammell
    16. Bill Dahlen
    17. Bobby Wallace
    18. Nomar Garciaparra
    19. Joe Sewell
    20. Bert Campaneris
    So if A-Rod doesn't even make your top 20 because of PEDs, where does he rank on your all-time list of MLB shortstops? 21st? Dead last? Would he really have been that bad without PEDs?
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

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    1. Honus Wagner - 10 Points
    2. Alex Rodriguez - 9 Points
    3. Robin Yount - 8 Points
    4. Cal Ripken Jr. - 7 Points
    5. George Davis - 6 Points
    6. Bill Dahlen - 5 Points
    7. Arky Vaughan - 4 Points
    8. Derek Jeter - 3 Points
    9. Luke Appling - 2 Points
    10. Barry Larkin - 1 Point
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    1. Honus Wagner -10
    2. Alex Rodriguez-9 (I do punish for PED's, but still think he'd be a top 25-30 player, maybe even top 20 had he never touched them.)
    3. Cal Ripken Jr. -8
    4. Ernie Banks -7
    5. Robin Yount -6
    6. Derek Jeter -5
    7. Arky Vaughan -4
    8. Barry Larkin -3
    9. Ozzie Smith -2
    10. George Davis -1
    Last edited by layson27; 03-23-2014 at 07:11 AM.

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    1. Honus Wagner - 10
    2. Alex Rodriguez - 9
    3. Arky Vaughan - 8
    4. Cal Ripken, Jr. - 7
    5. Robin Yount - 6
    6. Ernie Banks - 5
    7. Ozzie Smith - 4
    8. Luke Appling - 3
    9. George Davis - 2
    10. Barry Larkin - 1
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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    1 Derek Jeter - 10
    2 Barry Larkin - 9
    3 Alan Trammel -8
    4 Ozzie Smith-7
    5 Luis Aparicio-6
    6 Luke Appling -5
    7 Arky Vaughan -4
    8 Dave Concepcion-3
    9 Rabbit Maranville -2
    10 Jack Glasscock-1



    i'm staying with my pattern of not ranking multi-positional players. I set a standard of 80% games at SS to be rated. I know that the OP says that multi positional players are eligible, but that doesn't mean that one has to rank them.
    At least this will give Jeter more points. He needs all he can get since half the voters won't rank him due to personal animosity. Not to mention getting to prop up advanced defensive metrics to prove his unworthiness as well as dismiss the intangibles that make him such an integral part of the Yankees. Intangibles seem to stop mattering about 1970 or so. Sounds about right since that's when it became fashionable to hate the players currently playing and romanticize the past to a ridiculous degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdlinger View Post
    So if A-Rod doesn't even make your top 20 because of PEDs, where does he rank on your all-time list of MLB shortstops? 21st? Dead last? Would he really have been that bad without PEDs?
    The thought doesn't even cross my mind.
    Last edited by bluesky5; 03-23-2014 at 07:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky5 View Post
    At least this will give Jeter more points. He needs all he can get since half the voters won't rank him due to personal animosity.
    I like Jeter. Personal like or dislike of a player shouldn't factor in here. I just don't have him among my top 10. Great hitter, very bad defender.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky5 View Post
    The thought doesn't even cross my mind.
    Which thought? Under the parameters of this project, A-Rod is a MLB shortstop, so this is the round where he is to be ranked. If you knock him for PEDs, he would still have to be somewhere on your list, even if he's not in your top 10 or 20.
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

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