Ty Cobb General Thread

[cubbieinexile]

He played for the Athletics at the end of line after the scandal. When he was managing his teammates hated him and wanted to be traded. Even the ones who learned from him couldn't stand him. When he played his teammates hated him. He left early from games, pulled himself from games when he had two strikes against him. Decided not to play if he was unhappy, yelled and embarassed his teammates while the game was being played so on and so on. This man was not liked, he skills were recognized and respected but he was not liked. He died alone and only a small handful attended his funeral. His funding and humanitarian work happened after baseball. Ty was not a kingly lion but a jackal in his playing days. In the end Connie Mack said all his players were easy to manage. I read quotes where Connie said Collins was the easiest. If anything Connie's ego probably led him to say they are all easy to manage.

Cobb would get suspended for days at a time, injured because of his way of playing all the time, and injured or jailed or held up all the time because of off the field racism all the time. These are not myths as you a devoted researcher of Cobb probably already know.

I have said it before but you seem to want tocover up or even pretend that Cobb had no warts, that he was the greatest, most revered ball-player. He most certainly was not. He was a megalomaniac obsessed with his own stats and didn't give a damn about his team. The great thinker who some claimed could think two or three moves down the road could never plan 150 or so games down the road.

Ty Cobb was a great individual player. If he was a tennis player that would be fine, but he played a team sport. I'm glad that he never won a World Series championship and I am glad that the stat-obsessed Cobb never got to right his World Series performance. It probably ate at him for quite some time.

[cubbieinexile]

Heres a trivia question: Ty Cobb was pinch hit for twice in his career. It happened once while he was a player manager and another time as just a player. Why was he pinch hit for as a player?

[cubbieinexile]

I have no clue where those two posts are. But after doing some searching I found this quote:

1. I have admitted that Ty was a rascist. Due to his environment, he was a garden-variety rascist, who only evolved as his Georgian surroundings grew. He adhered rigidly to the social curve of the progressive conservatives there.

and I had to laugh. Ty Cobb was only a garden-variety rascist! A guy who knifed a black night watchmen, chased a groundskeeper into a shed and then proceeded to beat and kick his wife because the guy patted him on the back is not a garden variety rascist. That is one of the worst kind of rascists there is.

[cubbieinexile]

Actually I ran a search under the title of your posts. Most of the words get filtered out. So I then ran a word search with the words rascist and Cobb. The first three or four posts are a quote of a post you made. I read that post and was struck by the garden variety comment. I have no doubt you already know of or at least ran across Cobb's run ins with minorities. That you would call them garden-variety or even that you would label any violent rascism or just rascism in general as garden variety led me to not really bother with this argument.

As for page 14 it only has some passage about a Cuban game and then says you included this in your How Racist was Ty. So again I still have no idea where this file is, and for that matter it seems that even you have a hard time finding it.

How is calling Ty Cobb racist trash-talking? How is saying Ty Cobb's teammates and contemporaries did not like him trash talking? How are the factoid I mentioned which have been published trash talking?

[cubbieinexile]

How is that trash talking?

Did he die with his family surrounding him? Was there hundreds around at his funeral? Did his teammates not demand trades? Are you seriously telling me that in all your research you have not come across quotes from ballplayers taken during Ty's playing days that stated what I said?

When you picture Ty Cobb playing are you telling me that you picture a nobel regal ball player playing a game fairly and honestly? Or do you picture a player that fought for every square inch and then some. A person that would attack when you least expected it.

Saying that Cobb could not plan out a season is not trash talking.

Saying that you pretend Cobb has no warts is not trash talking.

Saying that I am glad that Cobb never won a championship because I don't like him is not trash talking.

[cubbieinexile]

Bill,
I am sure that you are very well versed in Ty's career so perhaps you can do me a favor. If it is possible could you list all or most of the times and reasons Ty missed significant time during the season. Such as when he got suspended, left in a huff, injured, married, or any such thing. I'm sure you have run across these events in your searchings. If not that is okay.

[four tool]

[But beyond deaths, there were 2 other "tragedies", which I feel deprived BB of a wealth of its just greatness.

The 2 events to which I refer are the blackballing of Ty Cobb/Babe Ruth. If those 2 had been allowed to manage until the day they couldn't do it anymore, the game would have been just so immeasurably enriched. A true tragedy, and so wastefully unnecessary.

Bill Burgess[/QUOTE]

Bill, yes Ty should have been allowed to continue managing, but I never saw The Babe as manager material, I don't think he enough self discipline to handle hinself and 25 other guys.

[four tool]

Hi Bill,
I've been woking second shift and taking an accelerated masters degree program--time is virtually not existent. as for Babe trying to manage--hmmm... him instead of McCarthy for the 1930s Yankees, Babe managing Lou. You're right, what harm?

Actually, I wish the Red Sox had tried him, especially in say, 1939 with Ted as a rookie now that would be something for the ages.

[cubbieinexile]

Over at the hardball times they have an article in which the writers project what certain players would have done had there been no spitball and other now illegal pitches occurring in the teens.

Year  Age  Team  Lg    G   AB    R    H  2B  3B  HR  RBI   BB  SO     BA   OBP   SLG    OPS
1911   24  DET   AL  146  591 *147 *248 *47 *24   8 *127   44  --  *.420  .467 *.621 *1.088
1912   25  DET   AL  140  553  120 *226  30  23   7   83   43  --  *.409  .456 *.584 *1.040
1913   26  DET   AL  122  449   85  188  22  18   6   82   60  30  *.418 *.487  .591  1.078
1914   27  DET   AL   98  361   84  143  26  13   3   69   59  21  *.395 *.480 *.565 *1.046
1915   28  DET   AL  156  589 *175 *234  37  15   5  121  122  41  *.397 *.500  .535 *1.035
1916   29  DET   AL  145  567 *138  226  37  12   8   83   80  37   .398  .473  .547  1.020
1917   30  DET   AL  152 *616  130 *253 *53 *28  10  124   63  33  *.410 *.465 *.633 *1.098
1918   31  DET   AL  111  441  101  181  23 *16   5   78   42  20  *.410 *.462  .568  1.029
1919   32  DET   AL  124  520  112 *214  43  15   2   85   39  21  *.412  .453  .562  1.015
1920   33  DET   AL  112  428   86  143  28   8   2   63   58  28   .334  .416  .451   .867
1921   34  DET   AL  128  507  124  197  37  16  12  101   56  19   .389  .452  .596  1.048
1922   35  DET   AL  137  526   99  211  42  16   4   99   55  24   .401  .462  .565  1.026

The years affected are from 1913 to 1919. In those years the writers figures that Ty would have batted .406 for those 7 seasons. Instead of the .378 he actually batted.

[four tool]

Bill,

No Harry Heilmann? I'm shocked, but I'm sure you have your reasons. Wasn't it Cobb or ruth who said Rajah and Harry were the 2 best RH hitters they ever saw?

[four tool]

I like Harry too, but look who he has to contend with? I'd have him up there somewhere if the list went on.
[QUOTE=william_burgess@usa.net]

His competition? You don't list single RH hitter who played in the AL in the same era! Are you comparing him to lefties or players of other eras? I think he's top five

[RuthMayBond]

McGraw's Views on Pitching/Catchers:


A mere 2 wks. before his death on Feb. 25, 1934, John J. McGraw was interviewed by Sporting News. He gave his views on his top pitcher/catcher batteries. Following here are his selections as his top batteries.

1. Christy Mathewson / Roger Bresnahan - Giants - 1902-1908

2. Lefty Grove / Mickey Cochrane - Athletics - 1925-1933

3. Walter Johnson / Gabby Street - Senators - 1908-1911

4. Mordecai Brown / Johnny Kling - Cubs - 1904-1911

5. Sadie McMahon / Wilbert Robinson - Orioles - 1889-1896

6. Rube Waddell / Ossie Schreckengost - Athletics - 1902-1907

7. Addie Joss / Harry Bemis - Indians - 1902-1910

8. Joe McGinnity / Roger Bresnahan - Giants - 1902-1908

9. Rube Marquard / Chief Meyers - Giants - 1909-1915

10. Carl Hubbell / Gus Mancuso - Giants - 1933-1938 (McGraw saw Gus 1 yr.)

11. Tim Keefe / Buck Ewing - Giants - 1880-82, 1885-1891

12. Amos Rusie / Buck Ewing - Giants 1891-92

13. John Clarkson / Michael "King" Kelly - Boston Nationals - 1888-1892

14. Kid Nichols / Charlie Bennet - Boston Nationals - 1890-1893

15. Nap Rucker / Bill Bergen - Dodgers - 1907-1911

16. Ted Breitenstein / Heinie Peitz - Reds - 1897-1900

17. Cy Young / Lou Criger - Red Sox - 1901-1908

18. Ed Walsh / Bill Sullivan - White Sox - 1904-1914

19. Chief Bender / Doc Powers - Athletics - 1901-1909

20. Eddie Plank / Jack Lap - Athletics - 1908-1914

21. Cy Young / Chief Zimmer - Cleveland -1890-1898

I am not sure what the above post has to do with Ty Cobb, but . . . do you realize that, if we toss out a guy that McGraw saw ONE year, there's exactly one battery after 1915? I will take a look at these for my top battery list

[RuthMayBond]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
old post, worth saving.

When was this post from? For your consideration, Billy Hamilton, Eddie Collins, Speaker, Cuyler, Aaron, Bobby Bonds, Joe Morgan, Andre Dawson, Eric Davis, Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson, and ARod.

[ElHalo]

Just because you have the most SB's doesn't mean you're the best baserunner. Mickey Mantle was a better baserunner than Mays, but stole fewer bases. Derek Jeter is probably the best baserunner in baseball today, but he's not close to the best base stealer.

[RuthMayBond]

Jeff,

This is a post from a while back. What were your small group of players in reference to? The Wagner post?

Bill

Yes, your "triple threat" post

[ElHalo]

I'd have to go with Eric Davis' horrifically underrated 1987 season, when he was the second best hitter in the league behind Jack Clark, won a gold glove in center field, and was the best baserunner in the league (sorry Vince Coleman), stealing 50 with only 6 CS.

[RuthMayBond]

I'd have to go with Eric Davis' horrifically underrated 1987 season, when he was the second best hitter in the league behind Jack Clark, won a gold glove in center field, and was the best baserunner in the league (sorry Vince Coleman), stealing 50 with only 6 CS.

That was the one I was thinking of

[Metal Ed]

Just because you have the most SB's doesn't mean you're the best baserunner. Mickey Mantle was a better baserunner than Mays, but stole fewer bases. Derek Jeter is probably the best baserunner in baseball today, but he's not close to the best base stealer.

What makes you say Mantle was a better baserunner than Mays? Faster, maybe, but faster isn't necessarily better. There's also instinct and intelligence; being able to judge instantly whether a pop up will drop in between the outfielders and take the extra base, a judgement in which Mays never erred; or purposely slowing down on the way home, just enough to draw a throw so that the hitter can advance to second for a double, but not slow enough to be thrown out. Things that are very, very hard to tease out from the statistical record.

In his book, Tim McCarver (who I am inclined to believe since he is my most favoritist broadcaster), called Willie Mays "the best base runner ever. You couldn't get any better."

Bill, that's what I wanted to tell you 'bout Mays. One day, we will cross swords on Mays vs. Cobb. Oh indeed, we will.

So, who called Mantle better? Not faster.

BTW, I agree with you: Derek Jeter is the best baserunner in the game today. But he isn't necessarily the fastest. Aha! See?

[Yankees7]

Sir, I for one seen Mays thrown out on base running mistakes, and I was there!!

[Metal Ed]

Sir, I for one seen Mays thrown out on base running mistakes, and I was there!!

I guess Tim must've been elsewhere, then, that time, and missed it. I believe you. Thanks for the info.

Where do you stand on the Mantle vs. Mays baserunning thing?

[Yankees7]

If I remember correctly it was the Polo Grounds against the Phillies or Reds, and my uncle took me to the game.Mays missed thirdbase and was called out on an appeal play. My uncle explained what happened, because I had not seen that before. That really is the only reason it stands out I had never seen another appeal play take place at a game I was at, I have seen it happen on TV numerous times, but only live that one time. Mantle was tough to catch in a double play because he ran so well, and those Yankee teams in my days seldom needed to steal bases, when he was asked to run, Mantle was more often than not successful. I give the edge to Mantle, better stolen base percentage, and he was caught fewer times in a double plays.

[ElHalo]

Mantle always tried hard to take out the fielder on double plays, always judged outfield arms apropriately, and always beat out tough infield grounders to first. Mays was a better base stealer, but from what I've read he also made mistakes on the basepaths... got tagged out more than Mantle.

My grandmother, who is still alive, has seen quite a bit of baseball in her time. She's a Brooklyn Dodger fan whose favorite player growing up was Lefty O'Doul. She tells me Mantle was the best baserunner she ever saw, and I haven't read much to contradict that. Yes, he was arguably the fastest player this side of Cool Papa Bell, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was the best baserunner. He just was.

[leecemark]

--Any player who doesn't get thrown out on the bases at least a few times a year probably isn't helping his team much on them either. Aggressive base running will yield some outs along with the extra bases. Just ask Mr Cobb.

[ElHalo]

--Any player who doesn't get thrown out on the bases at least a few times a year probably isn't helping his team much on them either. Aggressive base running will yield some outs along with the extra bases. Just ask Mr Cobb.

Derek Jeter once went over 100 games without getting tagged out once. It was one of the most amazing things I'd ever heard... no CS, no outfield assists, no nothing.

[Metal Ed]

El Halo, with all due respect to your grandmother, I really have to say that there's no way I'm going to place more value on her opinion that on Tim McCarver's. I'm really not trying to be snide, but this is a guy who caught in the Majors for 20 years and then went into broadcasting for the next 30.