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Thread: Ty Cobb General Thread

  1. #221
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    Fair enough, although I wonder why three went against the family's wishes anyways, and if it was ok, why more didn't do that. And fifteen isn't that big of a number anyway.

  2. #222
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    Originally posted by RuthMayBond
    Fifteen isn't that big of a number anyway.
    It may also be noted that Ty passed away roughly 35 years after he wore any kind of uniform. When Cobb played, southerners in the league were very rare indeed. People's lives change, they move about. Lots of the guys he played with were gone already (see Bill's post above). How many do you think could have made it?
    "Someone asked me if I took steroids. I said, 'No. I had a contract with Wheaties.'"
    --Bob Feller

  3. #223
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    Bill, you didn't cite your sources for the Tigers cheering Luecker's beating. Perhaps McIntyre was let go because he was slipping (Killian, Siever, Schmidt never played for anyone else. It wasn't like they were Hornsby in the late '20s or anything)

  4. #224
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    Bill, wasn't Ty good buddies with Grantland Rice the sportswriter who was from his neck of the woods? I have Rice's biography, which is an interesting read if anyone wants to look at the sporting world of the first half of the 20th century, and in it he has a lot of good things to say about Cobb.

    But the book also seems like Rice is dropping a lot of names too( Bobby Jones, Bill Tilden), but then again, sportwriters then got closer to their subjects than they do nowadays. But I was pretty sure that he had a good relationship to Cobb. True?

    KH14

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    Well, here is my evidence that even Connie never fossilized. He stayed fresh. He stayed open. Below is my "evidence".

    In the 1930's, Connie switched from Sisler to Gehrig, as his all time 1st baseman. Sisler represented Connie early values, Gehrig his later values, which Connie DID embrace.

    So those are 2 valid examples of emotional growth and maturation. Both show that while Jim's theory is valid up to a certain extent, it is not without a goodly amount of exceptions.

    Another person who evolved was Mr. John J. McGraw. In a Sporting News piece from Nov. 20, 1930, McGraw, for his all time team, had switched from Sisler to Gehrig at first, Hugh Duffy to Babe Ruth in LF.

    Ty himself had switched his all time 3B, Buck Weaver to Pie Traynor for his last all time team of 1961.

    Ned Hanlon switched his greatest player ever to Cobb in 1909.
    They are evidence for your point, although anybody who wouldn't have made the changes you mentioned would be in more denial than the Egyptians
    As for Hanlon, his pick turned out to be ok, but anybody who chooses a greatest player ever after the guy has played (we'll ASSUME it was after the 1909 season) three full seasons shows really questionable judgment, which is what I've been trying to tell that even eyewitnesses can have. Herb Score happens

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    Jeffrey,

    I so sincerely hope the big picture is not escaping you. You DO have a tendency to never conceed on the big picture and then focus on some quibbling little point.

    Cobb himself refused to play small ball when he managed, '21-26. Didn't even have a sign for stealing! He taught his guys to hit, and relied on high-average hitting. He didn't let his guys go for homers, that's true, but his guys may not have been gifted with that rare gift.
    And you have a tendency to ignore facts. Cobb's team was SECOND in SB in 1921, third in 1923, third in 1924, third in 1925 and in '26. And high-average hitting with few HR is small ball. I agree that you may have a point, and then you complain

  7. #227
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    Warren Brown - 1916-1974 - chose team, 1946 - Grimm, Hornsby, Frisch, Ruth, Cochrane, Hartnett, Dean, Gomez, Ruether, Van Lingle Mungo
    Mr. Brown is a true original.
    "Someone asked me if I took steroids. I said, 'No. I had a contract with Wheaties.'"
    --Bob Feller

  8. #228
    Hi guys, been away so long I missed this entire top 20 thing. (I'm working full time, fianlly and taking 2 courses a week for a masters--whew).

    Bill great work as usual withthe info on players.

    Catchers:
    Berra is rated too low--he has some defensive numbers that are great--most games without an error, etc and was top 5 in a lot offensive categories over the years. And he earned some MVPs on teams with people like Mantle and Dimaggio. See The orginal BJ Historical Abstract

    First Base

    Foxx--Red Sox put him back behind the plate in 1941 and he never recovered. Of course his drinking didn't help.

    Greenburg, like Mize lost time to WWII--otherwise 500 HR.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    EdgarHoF
    Ruth
    Cobb
    Williams
    Mays
    Wagner
    1. Ruth
    2. Cobb
    3. Mays
    4. Wagner
    5. Bonds

    I've been reworking my all-time list

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    Four Tool,
    I was only be skeptical that FB or Basketball were the offending culprits. And I do expect the numbers to turn around, due to the big money now being paid out in BB. As long as a kid can expect to earn $10. m and up per yr. in BB, I can't see as how that won't act like a magnet in bringing back blacks in numbers. But I may turn out all wrong, due to social dynamics that I'm not picking up on. That was all I was trying to say. I was't too clear I guess. Sorry about that Four Tool.

    Bill Burgess
    You have said that sports draw from different "pools" of athletes, and that is true to a point, but I know many athletes who can and do play several sports. Of course you do see less 6'-5'' 300 Lb. players in BB than in Football, but that is not the dimensions of all Football players.

    Of course, to play at the professional, you do have to more or less focus on one sport, but not 100%, and not for everybody.


    Also to answer your question as it has been said several times by others, basketball is more accessible in this day and age, and with one or two players, you can get a game going.

    But with the expansion of ALL sports, the talent pool for all of them is getting more spread out. Certain numbers are changing, but that is what they do, they change. And give it some time, the numbers will be back up and someone will be asking why less white players are playing BB.

  11. #231
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    --Bill, the percentage of Blacks in other sports has not declined. Baseball simply doesn't seem to have as much appeal to African-Americans for whatever reason. Since they are over-represented both in terms of raw numbers and top players in most other sports - as they were in baseball from the 50s to 70s - in might be fair to say that the decline in the number of black baseball players has resulted in a decline in the overall quality of play in the last 15-20 years. That has been offset somewhat by the rise in the number of Latin and Asian players, but I'm by no means convinced that completely closes the gap in black talent lost.
    --I don't think we're just losing the black athlete either. I went to high school in the 70s and playing baseball got me no part of the attention that football and basketball players got. It just wasn't as popular and many of the best athletes choose to spend their spring running track rather than playing baseball. I think the situation has gotten worse since then. I know my son has little or no interest in baseball, although he did play footbal and run track in high school. You see some speculation that baseball hiy a low point in the 70s and 80s. I'm more inclined to think the baseball stopped improving in that era and has declined since.
    --Standard deviations hit an all time low in the 70s and 80s and we have since seen some players put up soem huge relative numbers. Generally speaking the higher the level of competition the more difficult it is to achieve a large degree of separation from the pack. The increidble OPS+ and ERA+ numbers put up by a number of players in the last 10 -15years may be an indication that we have an unusual number of extremely great players active or recently active. They could also mean the average player isn't quite as good as they were 20 years ago. I'm not completely sure which, but I think the latter is a little more likely.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net

    Cobb himself refused to play small ball when he managed, '21-26. Didn't even have a sign for stealing! He taught his guys to hit, and relied on high-average hitting. He didn't let his guys go for homers, that's true, but his guys may not have been gifted with that rare gift. So even he was trying to stretch his game, within limits, I must admit.

    ....

    Bill Burgess
    Or the lack of encouragement may simply have been because Detroit wasn't the best place to hit home runs. Cobb hit 82 home runs on the road, but only 35 at home during the course of his career. While Navin Field was more of a pitcher's park during Cobb's managerial tenure, I don't have the home-road HR splits for the Tigers and their opponents during the course of those seasons.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    10. Another important factor in attracting the fans to come out is to have attractive, competitive teams, featuring good players.

    Around the turn of the century, BB lacked competitive balance. In the AL, the Browns, Senators, Highlanders, were the weak sisters in the league, upon whom the others beat up on. It was hard for those teams to compete for fans.

    In the NL, the Phillies, Braves, Dodgers, Reds, Cards were the weak sisters. The Cubs, Giants, Pirates, were the strong teams.

    And that lack of competitive balance contributed to low attendance.
    Weak sisters? Anyone heard of Tampa Bay, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Montreal, Kansas City, Texas for the most part. Strong teams? Anyone heard of the Yanks, Braves, Twins, Oakland, Boston?

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    Mickey Mantle:

    In 1954, the Indians, under Al Lopez won, in 1959, the White Sox, under Al Lopez won.

    Al Lopez was a NL catcher from '28, '30-46, & AL manager, '51-65, '68-69.
    He chose his all time team in 1986, and his OFs were Ruth, Cobb, and for CF, he chose Paul Waner/Al Simmons. No Mick.

    Fred Lieb was a sports writer from 1910-77. In his 1977 book, he broke his all time teams into 1876-1900, 1901-25, 1926-50, 1951-75.
    His 1951-75 team, his OFs are: Aaron, Mays, Clemente, Mantle. In that order.

    Lopez, and Lieb. Authorities who should have been among the Mick's strongest supporters, since they saw so much of him, all passed on him.

    Bill Burgess
    Just shows you how unreliable eyewitnesses can be. PAUL WANER over Mantle?

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond
    Just shows you how unreliable eyewitnesses can be. PAUL WANER over Mantle?

    Again, as I've said before; Paul Waner is from my hometown. But over Mickey Mantle. PLEASE!!!
    On a side note though: Paul Waner should absolutely be one of the 10 best rightfielders of all time.
    Waner, Mantle, Bench, Nightal?

  16. #236

    Prince Hal

    Thanks for all of great info here. Its hard to imagine how great a fielder that Hal Chase must have been. I've read so many who saw him play, including Cobb, comment about it. They knew he was throwing games and they still gave im chance after chance. Also, I thought Ray Schalk had a good arm. There's a reference here that calls him weak armed. Cobb named him on his greatest team and is considered by some the weakest member of the HOF.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by HDH
    Thanks for all of great info here. Its hard to imagine how great a fielder that Hal Chase must have been. I've read so many who saw him play, including Cobb, comment about it. They knew he was throwing games and they still gave im chance after chance. Also, I thought Ray Schalk had a good arm. There's a reference here that calls him weak armed. Cobb named him on his greatest team and is considered by some the weakest member of the HOF.
    he's certanly not in the HOF, but along with Cobb, Babe Ruth also called Chase the greatest fielding 1st baseman ever (and puts him on his alltime team).

  18. #238
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    Hard to argue there, though I've never gotten the whole Schalk love in, but why Plank over other A's? Why not Waddell or Bender?
    "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

    Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by csh19792001
    he's certanly not in the HOF, but along with Cobb, Babe Ruth also called Chase the greatest fielding 1st baseman ever (and puts him on his alltime team).
    And how many times do you think the Babe saw Keith Hernandez

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDH
    Also, I thought Ray Schalk had a good arm. There's a reference here that calls him weak armed. Cobb named him on his greatest team and is considered by some the weakest member of the HOF.
    I don't know about Schalk's arm but he is consistently among the leaders in putouts, assists, DP, range factor, I think fielding%

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