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Thread: Ty Cobb General Thread

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Ed
    El Halo, with all due respect to your grandmother, I really have to say that there's no way I'm going to place more value on her opinion that on Tim McCarver's. I'm really not trying to be snide, but this is a guy who caught in the Majors for 20 years and then went into broadcasting for the next 30.
    And if I was just relying on her opinion, that'd be one thing. But everything I've read about Mickey Mantle suggests that he was not just a fast baserunner, but an excellent baserunner, while I've read that Willie could be reckless at times on the basepaths.
    "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

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  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    Eddie Collins? Well, you are going to have to persuade me that Eddie was the best hitter, with Cobb, Jackson and Grey Eagle all over his ass in hitting. But. . . if you think Eddie had a better year at the plate, bags, running than they did, I'll be happy to look over your work.
    I'm not saying Collins was definitely the best hitter any year, just that there is an argument. In 1909, Collins led his league in TPR. In 1914, he led his league in Runs Produced and OPS and Batting Runs and TPR. Strangely. there's another guy in the SAME league that year that also has a claim to the same thing. Hopefully this satisfies you.
    Last edited by RuthMayBond; 03-23-2005 at 11:26 AM.
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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  3. #303
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    I think this thread was started when Cobb was still playing.


    Anuther amazin thang is how so miny northern peeple think the best baseball man could be one of us sutherners...espeshally a Jawja man!

    (Sorry yall just kiddin, don't want to start another Civil war. We'll just save you some time. We'll hand eachother our own a**.)

    "Baseball is something more than a game to an American boy. It is his training field for life's work. Destroy in his faith, its squareness and honesty, and you have destroyed something more. You have planted of all things, suspicion in his heart."
    -Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis

  4. #304
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    Bill,

    Great points. My theory is that Landis was afraid of hurting his image. Since Landis was so worried about outward appearance and self-promotion, maybe he was concerned about what the majority thought of him. But then again I think about how he had the guts to stand up to the owners as a whole (which no commissioner has done since, without rulings being overturned).

    I live about 20 miles from Kenesaw Mountain. I think his father lost a leg there.

    Also,
    I didn't know Speaker was a southerner. And Cobb calls the best outfield Jackson/Speaker/Ruth in the Al Stump book. Think the "demon possessed" Cobb could possibly be showing humility?

    I think Cobb was a better man than most people think. Of course he got better with age, but some of the stories are ridiculous.
    "Baseball is something more than a game to an American boy. It is his training field for life's work. Destroy in his faith, its squareness and honesty, and you have destroyed something more. You have planted of all things, suspicion in his heart."
    -Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis

  5. #305
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    Brian,

    Did you know that from 1911-19, the best OF was an all southern one. Speaker/Cobb/Jackson?

    And the next season, 1920, the best 2Bman was a southerner, Hornsby from Texas. Lots of good southern boys around then.

    Joe Sewell, Cleveland SS from Alabama
    Luke Sewell, Cleveland C from Alabama
    Bobby Veach, Detroit OF from Kentucky
    Clyde Milan, Washington OF from Tennesee
    Gabby Street, Washington C from Alabama
    Ted Lyons, WhiSox P from Louisiana
    Muddy Ruel, Washington C from Arkansas
    Nap Rucker, Brooklyn P from Crabapple, Georgia
    Howie Camnitz, Pirates P from Kentucky
    Old time Southerners
    AVaughan, DDean, Bagby, CMays, Veach, Ott, TLyons, Galvin, Hubbell, Rixey
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    Thanks, Jeff! Much obliged. Where did you get those? Is there a book or something?

    Bill Burgess
    From my list of best pitcher/position player for each state
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHalo
    Mantle always tried hard to take out the fielder on double plays, always judged outfield arms apropriately, and always beat out tough infield grounders to first.
    Mantle didn't "always" do anything right all the time. If you complain that his sprinkler incident messed up his speed, then he didn't "always" beat out infield grounders.
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  8. #308
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    Bill,

    About the Cobb "mugging" incident, have you found any evidence of medical treatment Cobb received from the "slashing"? Also, if they did cut him in anyway, would it not have been more of a story because witnesses at the train depot would have noticed blood on him, torn clothes, etc.? Also, in one of his statements later in life said he went after the third thug and chased him and he hoped that he would run between 2 houses and dead-end into a cul-de-sac. He said he caught up to him fairly easy (from being in good shape). Do you think the "cul-de-sac" details were added to make it more believable?

    Also,
    What is your take on the "spike sharpening" gag that Detroit played on the Highlanders? True?

    Brian
    "Baseball is something more than a game to an American boy. It is his training field for life's work. Destroy in his faith, its squareness and honesty, and you have destroyed something more. You have planted of all things, suspicion in his heart."
    -Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis

  9. #309
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    Bill,

    I disagree wholeheartedly with your perception of Landis.

    He was (and still is) the ONLY Commisioner who was consistent in his 'interference'

    He had 3 things he abided by

    1) Get rid of gambling NOW, forget who id it in the PAST, just who did it during his watch, or else it was a no win situation
    2) Stop the players like Paul Waner and Babe Ruth from thinking they are bigger then the game and could 'whione' out of fines imposed by managers
    3) Stop Branch Rickey and the Cards from 'freezing' young men in the minors for 7 years, when they could catch on elsewhere and make the big leagues

    He was not there to rock the boat, and if he tried, he would have failed on the above 3 points. You said his statement was diplomatic on Negroes in Baseball, I say it poignent and a slant of responsibilty to thrust it onto the owners to take hold of that situation. A guilt trip as it were, as if he was stating, if the owenrs say ok, I will not say anything. If he tried on his OWN, the owners would have attacked him unmercifully, as would the press, who wrote very disparing articles about Jackie Robinson's introduction onto MLB 20 years later.

    You are laying alot of burden on Landis, when his plan for his office was clear from the get go...even with gambling, with Speaker and Cobb, he said "I will not go into a backlash of things that happened prior to my appointment"

    The Unwritten Rule was waaaayy before his term, so he was consistent and one of the best things that happened to baseball.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    Did the Dodger fans support their integrated team? I don't know. Let's look at the attendance figures.

    1945 - 1,059,220 - 1st
    1946 - 1,796,824 - 1st
    1947 - 1,807,526 - 1st
    1948 - 1,398,967 - 4th
    1949 - 1,633,747 - 1st
    1950 - 1,185,896 - 2nd
    1951 - 1,282,628 - 1st
    1952 - 1,088,704 - 1st
    1953 - 1,163,419 - 2nd
    1954 - 1,020,531 - 4th
    1955 - 1,033,589 - 2nd
    1956 - 1,213,562 - 2nd
    1957 - 1,028,258 - 5th

    So. I was wrong. On another thread, I speculated that if the Dodger's fans had stopped supporting the team, due to its black players, then they weren't deserving of a team of their own. But . . . the figures above show me that the fans did not stop supporting their team. Not in comparison to the rest of the league. They came in 2nd in attendance in '53, '55, '56 due to Milwaukee going nuts over their acquisition of the Braves. Their last year in Brooklyn, one can understand if fans lose interest in a team that is going away, but yet they still came out. Over 1M fans. Most cities losing teams plummet to under 500,000 fans. So, the good fans of Brooklyn shouldn't have lost their Dodgers.

    Bill Burgess
    Nice work Bill, and if you don't mind I would add that Ebbets Field was not a large ball park, its capacity was right around the 30,000 mark if I remember correctly.
    Mickey Mantle 1956 Triple Crown Winner

  11. #311
    Can't let Landis off the hook on Negro Leaguers. He could have let the owners know he'd support an integrated league and force players and teams to play against an integrated team. He was the big cheese, he could have set an example, provided some leadership, but he didn't even try. I'll take on the players he said, and did, but not the owners. That's a cop out. The big strong boss kowtowing to the owners rather than challenging the. Kind of like a politicain saying, well, you know these lobbiests, why rock their boat.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    Thanks Four Tool for the support. I couldn't agree more. Here's to leadership that makes a difference. I think history has proven Landis was wrong on that issue. Dead wrong. And tragicly so.

    Bill Burgess
    Agreed, and that's exactly why I don't think he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Had he at least tried, it would be different. and he did say If we find a good negro ballplayer, we will let him in! Or so I've heard, but have no reference for where or when he said it.

  13. #313
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    I was just wondering some of the Cobb experts opinion on this matter. Had Ty Cobb came up into the major leagues today, with the shorter fences and smaller ball diamonds, how many homeruns do you think he would of been able to muster a season? Even though Cobb only had 117 HR in his carrer we all remember that he can hit HRs as he proved it when he hit Five in two days to prove a pouint to journalists that he could hit HRs if he so chose to.
    I must be first at everything!.......All the Time!!!!

  14. #314
    With the better defensive training, bigger gloves, etc. I don't tthink Cobb would hit 400 every year. Hit 400 at some point, no doubt. In the right home park for his power he could hit 50 HR some years. Heck, if he put his mind to it he could probably hit 50 and set the all time SB single season record in the same year.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    Some have questioned how I could value anyone so highly, even TC. Here's my reasoning. If the man could hit 150% of his league ave. then, why couldn't he hit it now. Some have suggested that if he tried for HRs, I'd have to bring his BA down. Why? Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, Bonds, didn't lose any points on their BA. when they went for power. Why penalize TC.
    Actually, Cobb hit 134.8% of his league average, and Ruth says he could have hit .600 if he didn't swing for HR
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  16. #316
    >>>>>. . . "But nowadays the teams almost pamper the kids with instruction and help.
    No wonder they aren't as tough - though I've got to say that mechanically they're as good as any of us ever were. (Washington Post, June 14, 1939, pp. 19, "On the Line With Considine")


    Boy, I love these old-fogeyisms.





    >>>>Some have questioned how I could value anyone so highly, even TC. Here's my reasoning. If the man could hit 150% of his league ave. then, why couldn't he hit it now.



    Because the league BA was less tightly clustered around the mean then as it is now. We discussed this already.



    >>Some have suggested that if he tried for HRs, I'd have to bring his BA down. Why? Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, Bonds, didn't lose any points on their BA. when they went for power.


    Now how can you say that like it's a fact? How do you know that they didn't lose any points on their average? Have you cloned them, taught them to shorten their stride and lose their uppercut and stop going for power, and had them play out their careers in a pocket reality, and compiled these stats?




    >>>>Since TC finished in the top 3 in the league 13 times in SLG. Ave., and won 8, I think that established him as one of the premier power hitters of all times.



    Yes, Cobb's power has been underrated by many, but right now you're overrating it. Part of that league leading slugging average was speed and aggressiveness on the basepaths, since he compiled that SLG avg. with lots of doubles and triples.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    So, he often hit over 150% of his league's BA. 8 times in all.

    Bill Burgess
    TB and I think Dave Kent say 134.8. Yes he could hit 150% of league avg as you said, but he also hit 126% of league or worse seven times
    Last edited by RuthMayBond; 03-23-2005 at 11:25 AM.
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    TB and I think Dave Kent say 134.8. Yes he could hit 150% of league avg as you said, but he also hit 126% of league or worse seven times


    Others should be so gifted, don'cha think? Ever see that degree of high-quality consistency elsewhere? How often? Doncha' wish you could hit 116% of league ave. in the minors?! I do!

    Bill Burgess
    I wish I could hit SIXTEEN percent of league average
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    torez,

    Cobb did play in the liveball era, and was never a league-leader again. Whether he could've adjusted or not and performed just as good or better than Ruth, he didn't. Case closed.


    Yes, we know. There were powerful mitigating circumstances. We fought a Gettysberg here once before. Learn to make your delicate adjustments. One more word and Gettysberg goes into its 4th bloody day.

    Case officially re-opened.

    Bill Burgess
    By the time the Live Ball era arrived, Cobb was well past his prime, in his mid 30s. Now, how would a 1909-1914 Cobb do in the Live Ball era? That is an interesting question!

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    torez,

    Cobb did play in the liveball era, and was never a league-leader again. Whether he could've adjusted or not and performed just as good or better than Ruth, he didn't. Case closed.
    Cobb never led in anything after 1920? Not true.


    1925
    Ty Cobb led in OPS, OPS+

    He also led in many of the other more "advanced" slugger/hitter stats like OWP, Secondary Average, Total Average, BPA.

    And let's not forget that the venerable Cobb, having already played 15 years and 2000 tooth and nail games, still somehow managed a higher batting average during his tenure in the 1920's than ANYONE in the American League (.357), with the expeption of Harry Heilmann (whom Cobb himself largely taught to hit). And all this as a player-manager for six years, no less.

    Torrez- (speaking of people adjusting to conditions, learning to adjust, having the ability to adjust)... Start Babe Ruth as an outfielder in 1905 in Detroit with a 390 ft right field line, on a bad team with the smallest market/press of any in the American League, hitting against the deadest of deadball, blackballs, shineballs, spitballs, etc, and see how Babe Ruth would have performed, bereft of the myriad of advantages he so gratuitously inherited.
    Last edited by csh19792001; 03-08-2005 at 02:11 PM.

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