Ty Cobb General Thread

[Metal Ed]

Don't have it. May get it when you tell me the name of it. Don't think I'm an absolute Babe fanatic. I just firmly believe he's the greatest player ever, which is why he gets my support so much around here.

Babe Ruth, The Life Behind the Legend.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...v=glance&s=dvd

No, you don't have to be an absolute fanatic to want it. I'm not an absolute Babe fanatic, but I still found it priceless. Trust me, the old footage is priceless. The Babe comes to life, as they say.

[csh19792001]

And I have the video of it. There's a Babe DVD with actual footage of the fabled "called shot." Shot by a fan who was at the game with a home video camera. No kidding!

I forget the name of the video at the moment (I'm at work). Got it at home, can post the name of it if anyone wants to know.

The whole DVD is a REAL gem. Lots of great old Babe footage, starting with his career with the Red Sox all the way to his final days with the Braves. Priceless, really. Torrez, this is something you have got to have (if you don't already).



P.S. He stepped to the right of the box, and motioned with his hands at the third base coach. No called shot. Sorry.

I've heard many aspects of the story and have seen that same footage Ed speaks of very closely- it looks like Ruth was pointing at the pitcher and then making a "waving" motion as if to say "Get the hell out of the way". I know he messed up a play badly in the field the inning before, and the Cubs bench was razzomg the hell out of him. He was responding in kind, and that kind of baiting and jockeying are what resulted in the mannerisms.

Unfortunately, Ruth himself even said that he never called his shot shortly after the incident. I'd absolutely LOVE to think that he did it, and if ANYBODY could hit a HR by will and on command, it would probably have been Babe Ruth. Bill- you've researched this- what did the catcher, Charlie Root, and the ump (the only three that would actually have known what happened) say about it later? Is my hypothesis correct?

[csh19792001]

--Was this the only time the wind was blowing out in a hitters park? I believed this story was gospel as a child. Now I recognise it as just part of baseball mythology.

--I have no doubt that Cobb could have been a good HR if he had come along in a later period or even he had changed his approach in the 20s. Maybe he could have even been a great HR hitter. Howeve, nobody can hit them out in bunches whenever they feel like it . Lets not let the Tyrus hero worship cause us to suspend logic completely.

I never "suspended my logic". The conditions were ideal, and he changed his style dramatically to suit those conditions, and it paid off. Obviously, other days the same excellent conditions and style change would not have yielded similar results. I'm agreeing with you that he could have been a great HR hitter, had he been born 15 or 50 years later, growing up learning the longball game.

Regardless of whether or not he called the shot, he still set the records and did what he did. I do have two sources (Cobb biographies), that state he did talk to the aforementioned sportswriters before the game. Bill also cited the sportswriter himself. Sure, it sounds apocryphal, I know.

In any case, I don't think lauding what no other major leaguer in the history of the American League has ever done (6 hits and three homeruns in a game) is "hero worship". Keep in mind that this is still a fact after 75 years of homerun hitting. I'm not sure how many games have been played in the last 104 years in the American League (certainly at least 100,000)- no matter who did it, it would be one hell of an accomplishment.

In fact, in the entire 130 year history of the National League, it's only been done twice (both of them, not surprisingly coming in the current era, where homeruns are so cheap that they have lost their relative value).

Given that he also hit 2 more the next day only makes it that much more impressive. 25 total bases in two days, with 5 homeruns, and two doubles (both of which were off the wall). Yes, it wasn't far from 7 homeruns in two games. No amount of disdain for Cobb or captious cynicism can take that away from him.

[westsidegrounds]

I've heard many aspects of the story and have seen that same footage Ed speaks of very closely- it looks like Ruth was pointing at the pitcher and then making a "waving" motion as if to say "Get the hell out of the way". I know he messed up a play badly in the field the inning before, and the Cubs bench was razzomg the hell out of him. He was responding in kind, and that kind of baiting and jockeying are what resulted in the mannerisms.

Unfortunately, Ruth himself even said that he never called his shot shortly after the incident. I'd absolutely LOVE to think that he did it, and if ANYBODY could hit a HR by will and on command, it would probably have been Babe Ruth. Bill- you've researched this- what did the catcher, Charlie Root, and the ump (the only three that would actually have known what happened) say about it later? Is my hypothesis correct?

Root always said the story was hokum.

Here's the thing:

The "story" isn't that Ruth made some indistinct or unclear or barely discernible gesture. The story is that Ruth clearly and unmistakeably and indisputably called his shot - indicated to players and fans what he was going to do to the next pitch.

If he didn't do that - and the footage doesn't show that he did - then the story is bunk. Period.

Unless somebody wants to rewrite the story as "The Time Babe Ruth Did Something That Might Possibly Be Interpreted as Calling His Shot" ...

[leecemark]

--I'm not dismissing the significance of Cobb's great couple days, just the inference that he could perform at that level at will . Frankly if he could have hit HR that easily and chose not to we need to reevaluate all the claims of his being such a smart player. Only an idiot would possess such a gift and use it only once.
--Cynical I may be, but I am not distainfull of Cobb. Of all the thousands of men ever to play the game I rank him in the top 5. Growing up a Tiger fan, Cobb was always a legendary figure. Indeed many of the stories about him are more legend than fact, including those recounted by the men in Bill's files.
--I do get a little peevish about the stridency of some of Cobb's supporters here. Any criticism or percieved slight is responded to as if blasphamy had been committed. Cobb was not perfect as a ballplayer and far from it as a man.
--I think his percentage of HR with men on base is probably just a statisical fluke as well. It would not have been particularly good strategy to swing for the fences more often with men on base when a lesser hit could deliver a run. If anything it would make more sense to try for HR if you come up with 2 out and nobody on.

[leecemark]

--When you play as long as Cobb did almost anything that can happen on a baseball field, good, bad, ugly and lucky, is likely to happen to you. Cobb made many more good things happen over the course of his career than just about anybody else, but he wasn't superhuman. When somebody trots out some questionable old story or statistical fluke as gospel it needs to be addressed. Its not like I brought up the "I can hit homers whenever I want" story. I just offered a rebuttal.
--Cobb has enough legitimate accomplishments to his credit. Why try to build a case for him being (or capable of being) something he wasn't based on two days of a two decade career?

[julusnc]

Tyrus Raymond Cobb was one of the five greatest position players of all-time.Nuff Said!

[leecemark]

--Isn't something "remotely resembling that remark" exactly what the last dozen posts in this thread have been about? If the contention is not that Cobb announced he was going to go out and show everybody he could hit HRs if he wanted, then what the hell are we arguing about here?

[westsidegrounds]

It took some guts for him to even try at his age to not embarrass himself. HE KNEW that to continue would be an embarrassment, and he wasn't stupid.

He wasn't just not stupid - he was crafty, and insightful, and fanatically dedicated when he wanted to master something.

What do you bet that he'd been thinking about the HR stunt for a long time, for maybe a year or more - studying the ballparks and the pitchers and every other factor that might come into play - in order to give himself the greatest possible chance of success? One thing's for sure, no way he picked Sportsman's just by chance.

Not that that takes anything away from the feat! He said he'd do it, and he did. It's a shame that pop historians keep on retailing the called shot malarkey instead of something that really happened.

[csh19792001]

Not that that takes anything away from the feat! He said he'd do it, and he did. It's a shame that pop historians keep on retailing the called shot malarkey instead of something that really happened.

Thank you, Westside. Good to see most of us here have the story straight.

[Blackout]

I'm not very educated on Cobb (I mean yeah I've read his bios on websites, so I know the basics of his life, but not alot of details or anything)

can one of you Cobb experts tell me if the 1910 series was the only time Cobb played baseball against blacks?

and if Cobb ever made any public statements about Satchell Paige or Josh Gibson in particular?

thanks

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Babe Ruth, The Life Behind the Legend.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...v=glance&s=dvd

No, you don't have to be an absolute fanatic to want it. I'm not an absolute Babe fanatic, but I still found it priceless. Trust me, the old footage is priceless. The Babe comes to life, as they say.

I believe that the source you give came from a special that aired on TV in the 1990s, which I did tape and have reviewed many, many times.

The program was presented on FOX TV and was titled "Front Page."
It was 16 MM home movie taken by Matt Kandle SR and loaned to FOX TV by his great grandson Kurt Kandle.

I have put together all that I could from that video, some hard cover books, words from the N.Y.Times and Herald Tribune archives.

Some fans toss lemons onto the field as he steps to the plate.

The video does show Ruth acknowledging the first called two strikes with his fingers.

He is clearly angered by the Cub bench who is riding him. He makes quick dagger like thrusting motions directed at the Cub bench, yelling at them.

Cub player Billy Herman says the Cubs were calling him, big fat slob, washed up. Ruth's chief tormentor Cub pitcher Guy Bush is so far out of the Cub dug out yelling at Ruth that the ump orders him to get back to the bench.

At one point he then raises one finger and yells at the Cub Bench. Cub catcher Hartnett says Ruth said, " It only takes one to hit it."

Root yells something to Ruth and Ruth yells back to Root. Accordung to Gehrig Ruth said to Root, " I'm going to knock the next pitch right down your goddamn throat."

In the end Ruth hits a long home run to center field, past the flag pole 440 feet.

Did he point, I did not see that.

It seems the issue here is did he call the shot. Certainly we will never know. Myself I don't think he ever said he was going to hit a home run.

I think he did the next best thing. It was the battle of the wills. The entire club bench siad that Ruth had seen better days. Ruth said he still had something left, Ruth clearly won the battle.

We all know that even the greatest hitters will make out ( walks excluded) almost 7 out of every 10 at bats. Ruth had already hit a home run in the first inning.

In the second inning he just missed another, pinning Kiki Cuyler up against the fence in right to pull down his drive.


It takes a lot of balls to shoot off your mouth when your already down two strikes and then he delivers. Naturally when it's Ruth a home run is not enough, it has to be a monster shot. You can see as he runs it out he makes pushing gestures to the Cub bench, telling them to sit down.

So he may not have actually said he was about to hit one out but, he did shut up the Cubs even though in the hole two strikes down.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Earlier in that day, before the game took place. From the N.Y Times archives.

Chicago OCT.1 (ap). Babe Ruth home run king of the N.Y.Yankees brought cheer to Lee William Koeppen 16, today when he visited the youth who was blinded and seriously injured in the bomb explosion in front of the home of Judge John P. McGoorty.
Ruth presented an autographed ball to the boy lying in bed with his head swathed in bandages.

On the field before the game As Ruth shags fly balls during batting practice fans toss several lemons in his direction. Ruth playfully underhands some lemons back into the stands.

Ruth at bat during batting practice smashed 9 long drives into the RF bleachers. After each drive he turns to the Cub bench and grins.

Game time, the real thing, first inning.

From the N.Y.Herald Tribune, written by Richards Vidmer.
N.Y.Herald Tribune Oct. 1.(ap) As he waited to bat in the first inning," He paused to jest with the raging Cubs, pointed to the right field bleachers and grinned."
He stepped to the plate in that at bat and hit a home run deep into the right center field bleachers.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

OK guys, I promise to yield the board to the others (for a while) after this one.

We had during the game and before the game, how about after that game.

The next game Ruth's first at bat, what else. Ruth's chief tormentor in the previous game Guy Bush, pitching for the Cubs, he hits Ruth on the arm. I've seen that video. As Ruth trots to first base he makes flicking motions on that arm, as one might do to brush away a fly. He has words with Bush. according to Gehrig Ruth yells to Bush, "hey lop ears was that your fast ball."

Some of you may already know but for those that don't. As a Brave in 1935 Ruth hits 3 home runs at Forbes Field. The last home run on that day number 714 clears the roof in RF the first tiime a ball was ever hit out of Forbes.

The Pirate pitcher in his own words, " that was the farthest ball I have ever seen hit and I tipped my hat to Ruth as he rounded third, i've seen it all now Babe." The Pirate pitcher was Guy Bush. ...break time for me...

[SHOELESSJOE3]

He did this despite being 40 years old and his health in the crapper. He retired a week later.

Posts like these should be on a Ruth thread. Bill created a Babe Ruth vs. The World thread. Any comparisons between Ruth and other players can be done there. Bill also has a Babe personal glimpse thread. Facts about his life and career can be done there.

Well the reason I posted here was because I saw some others post on the subject of the "called shot" here and I wanted to make sure they saw my replies to that theme.

[csh19792001]

Classic Cobbian baseball on Sunday:

Ichiro leads off the game with a single, after working a stubborn seven pitch at bat.

Being the fastest player in the game and a phenomeal baserunner, he's now a big burden and worry to the pitcher, as he leads off first- and he causes a balk after taking a big lead.

Now at second, he tags up on a flyball that nobody else could have (or would have) tried to attempt to advance on. He tags, timing it perfectly, flies down to third, and kicks the ball away as he slides in, just ahead of the throw.

Then Beltre drives him in with a sac fly. The point? Any one dimensional sluggish slugger would almost certainly still be standing on first base clogging up the basepaths, and Ichiro ends up scoring. Does any of this show up in the record books? Of course not! Nor is any credit when any situation occurs where a hit moves people along on the basepaths (such as a ground ball to the right side with a runner on second). This also frequently results in subsequent runs that could not have been produced otherwise. These things are especially vital in low scoring games, which were the staple of the deadball era- and Cobb, the greatest baserunner of all time, pulled stuff like this for 24 years.

And he gets no credit vis a vis statistics in the record book.

[csh19792001]

True, Ty did a number of things that jusy never show in stats or in the box score, much goes unnoticed not appreciated.

Ty should get some extra points when being evaluated for all the little things he did that helped his team in winning.

I read that some thought he had a peculiar habit of kicking the first base bag at times. He would on the outside of the bag facing second base and give the base a few kicks. Years later he explained, this was no meaningless habit, it had a purpose.
In those days the bases were not anchored down as securely as they are today. What Ty's kicks did was move the first base bag a few inches closer to second. This probably saved him from being thrown out at first on some throws by the pitcher. it may not seem like much, a few inches but there are times when on a pickoff attempt the runner is safe or out by only inches.

Just shows that Ty would take even the smallest advantage he could create, anything to get the edge on the opponent.

Unfortunate that it's hard to measure all the intangibles that this man brought to the playing field.

He may not have had the greatest personality but who would not want a guy like this on your team.

Great points Joe- you know your stuff on Tyrus.

Some other things that score runs (or lead to runs scored, which lead to games won) but go completely without recognition in the record books:

1. Errors caused- Ichiro caused a balk, which is an error of sorts, but causing wild throws, wild pitches, etc breaks up games, demoralizes pitchers and defenses, and can often end up being the deciding factor in contests. This is not documented, yet players like Cobb, Jackie Robinson, Frank Robinson, and even less recognized outstanding baserunners like Eddie Stanky and moderns like Roberto Alomar, Ichiro, and Alfredo Griffin cause tons of errors due to wit, cunning, and aggresiveness (caluculated or not).

Last week I watched a Yankees game where Alex Rodriguez slid in Frank Robinson style into second on the front end of (what would have been) an easy double play ball- there was a runner on third and one out. He took out the second baseman on the hard slide, who dropped the ball when they collided. The result? Not only does the runner score, but there is no inning-ending double play. That's two more baserunners (2 more opportunities to score) and another run that would not have happened with a meek slide into second.


2. Bases advanced- (see the Ichiro example above). Prior to 1898, "stolen bases" subsumed "bases advanced"- that is, if a baserunner went from first to third on a single, tagged and went to third on a flyball, or even scored from second on a deep fly, he was given his just credit. For one reason or another, the greatest modern baserunners are stripped of their due bases earned.

3. Baserunners advanced (by a batter)- In an era of scratching out runs by any means possible in low scoring, pitching dominated times, moving the runners along was an extremely valuable commodity. Place hitting was designed so that a runner could be moved over with a ball hit to the right side, etc. The batter who hits the flyball that advances a runner (as in the Ichiro example) is also given no credit- even though the run could not have happened without him. Often a player will ostensibly bunt for a hit, not get a sacrifice, but still advance a runner (or runners). There are many instances where a batter help his team with a productive out or a well placed hit- this was especially true when the game was played much more in the infield than it is now.

These things add up to one hell of a lot over 20+ years, but go egregiously uncredited. However, these are some of the reasons why nearly every expert (liveball, deadball, NY media, or any affiliation- both Cobb foes and friends) that actually got to witness so many of these totally uncredited events called him the greatest ever. It wasn't just the incredible raw stats- it was all the little things that he was head and shoulders above everyone else at pulling off (and that win games) on top of the stats that convinced people.

[four tool]

Bill, take away leaving the ball in play longer--that would cut down on HR way to much, especially with everything at 400 feet and I LIKE the list--even to 2 headed bullfrogs.

2 caveats: 1) eliminating quirks like the green monster may take some soul out of the game. I know you didn't say eliminate such things, but with the distances you want, it's effectively gone anyway.
2) All you're asking for a completely rational open fair approach to the game. No human organization in history has ever been like that.

[RuthMayBond]

Changes Which I Wish Had Happened.

1. Never banned blacks from the game.

Amen!

2. Never introduced the live ball. Same as '00-10. No cork-cushion.

This OR #15, not both when you have #12. You want it slanted towards Cobb

3. Reserve clause would never have been tolerated. Free agency should have always been the rule.

Cool!

4. Babe Ruth had stayed on the Red Sox, as a pitcher.

As an outfielder!

5. Teams had never been allowed to leave original cities. Cities could have bought out owners, and allowed owners to start new teams elsewhere.

As long as they're supporting them

6. NY Yankees should not have been allowed a "mortgage" on another (Fenway) teams ballpark. Yankees should not have been allowed to "buy" most of the good players from the Red Sox, 1919-24.

Thank you!

7. Joe Jackson had not been railroaded out of BB.

Hmm

8. Judge Ken Landis had not been appointed Commissioner. In fact, BB should never had had a commissioner.

You're sure?

9. Neither Cobb nor Ruth had been black-balled by the powers-that-be in baseball (owners). Wished they had been allowed to manage until they got too old to hobble. Would have added wonderful period flavor/color to the game.

Whatever

10. The Federal League should have never been a challenge. They should have been welcomed. But not to set up teams in cities which already had them. Simply pick the next 8 cities with the highest populations, with respect to growth rates, and baseball interest. Shouldn't have posed an insurmountable obstacle.

OK

11. The strike zone/height of the pitcher's mound should have remained standardized at what they were from 1901-10. Strike zone from knees to letters across the chest.

Thank you

12. Foul lines should have been standardized at 400'. No HRs less than 400'.

See #2.

13. No artificial turf allowed. Domes should have been retractable from the 1st.

You gonna pay for 'em?

14. Ballpark architechure should have not allowed such deep foul territory along the foul lines, nor behind the plate. Allow the fans to get "on top" of the players.

OK

15. Leave balls in play longer.

See #2.

16. Pitchers shouldn't have been allowed to "alter/doctor" the ball before '20.

Cool

17. Teams should have been required to block off their CF areas, so as to provide hitters with a good, clear backdrop to pick up the ball.

Excellent

18. Fielder's gloves are now far too large. Today, the glove makes the catch, not the fielder.

19. No infield fly rule. Fielder's should be allowed to let a fly drop. Adds to cool strategy.

May not be as crazy as it sounds

20. No more catcher's dropping last strike rule. Dumb rule.

Why?

21. Catchers should not be allowed to block the plate. Should require them to keep BOTH feet on one side of the foul line, or give the runner a free pass.
BB was designed to not be a contact sport. And when played properly, is.

Either that, or catchers be prepared to suffer the consequences

22. Runners should not be allowed to interfere with fielders making their plays. Should be required to slide in such a way as not to impede fielders. Those who get in a fielder's way, even accidentally, should be automaticly out.

I thought this was the rule?

23. HRs in the last inning should have always been allowed to score all the runners on base. Records should be gone back over, and revised to give back all those disqualified runs to those who hit HRs in the bottom of the 9th. How's that from a supposed "anti-Ruth" advocate?

Yeah!

24. I wish all players who qualify should have been allowed to play. Including WOMEN!

Locker room problems, but I don't think this would have included an inordinate amount of women

25. No lingering left-overs from the "reserve clause". Free agency should apply from the 1st day.

Help the Yankees?

26. Abolish the draft. A player should not have their options pre-empted. No more player slavery.

Are we exaggerating a little?

27. For as long as their is a Commissioner's Office, the Player's Ass. should have a veto. Give player's a voice in his selection. And a procedure to remove someone who is objectionable to either owners/players.

No problem

28. Wish there had been a 20 second rule for pitchers all the way through, way back when.

Good!

29. For a anti-drug policy to be truly effective, it would have to include unannounced off-season testing. I do not support a life ban on 1st violations, since many legal drugs have traces of banned substances, and few players are that into reading fine print on medications bottle labels. So there would need to be an appeal process that was neither "pro-player", nor "pro-banning".

Great!

30. I wish the integration process would extend into managers, coaches, umpires, scouts, park vendors, sports writers, mid-management franchise structures, and include not only blacks, but hispanics, Asians, women, gays, seniors, and 2-headed bull frogs.

OK

31. There have been certain, select base-runners who abused their steel cleates to intimidate fielders. If upon a 3rd violation, I'd give them a time-out. By this I mean that if a runner cut a fielder, who was not blocking off a base, or blocking home plate, I'd suspend their right to wear metal cleates for 30 days, and require them to wear cleates made from hardened, vulcanized rubber for the next 30 days, and also a fine and 5 games suspension. Can you hear me, those who accuse me of being too pro "a certain player"??!

YEAH, BABY!

[four tool]

Bill,

Just what would be on the new thread? should we consider splitting this thread? for instance to continue the discussion of the ultimate version of baseball?

I'm willing to delete, but want a little clarification first.

[RuthMayBond]

I would only put on it my Ty Cobb historical posts. And some of others historical stuff. Most of the Ty/Babe battles would go. We all had great fun with them, but they were mostly chit-chat.

I have already gotten rid of about a third of my posts already, and more are about to go.

My goal was to have a good, solid repository of Cobb stuff, but now that there is 37 pages, no one in their right mind would seriously attempt to read through it. It's just gotten too bloated. So I'm hoping that if everyone else deletes their posts, it will contract down from 37 to hopefully 10-13 pages.

At least that's the idea. But since when have any of my bright ideas panned out lately! I'm just trying to save this darn thing from becoming a bloated, obsolete, irrelevant monstrosity.

Bill

1) I told you this would happen
2) I don't think you can delete the post, just the material. So you will have pages of almost-blank posts that have to be at least ten/fifteen? characters long. Each "page" of Cobb has twenty-five posts, right?

[torez77]

Bill,

You mentioned starting another thread. So why don't you do that, transfer the posts you want from this thread, forget about this one, and let it sink, like you said?

It's not that I'm too lazy to delete my posts. But even if I do, how many others will? If they don't, it will still be bloated.

[four tool]

I can't find an easy way to delete my posts. Tried the search tools, no luck, and I don't have time to scan the 37 pages--doing the first 2 had me bleary eyed.
If someone can tel me how to gather my posts, I'll delete the non appropriate ones.

[KHenry14]

Hey Bill, I happened to watch "Cobb" last nite again, and while I know that most of it is a characterature, it did give me pause to think about something. What can you tell me about his kids? The movie implied he had no relationship with them, was that true? Also, were they the beneficiaries of his estate, which had to be quite large?

Just curious...

KH14

[Blackout]

i just started reading the Ty Cobb book with Al Stump, Ty seemed to be a pretty cool guy even though the introduction portrays him to be a miserable old fart

this is the first book ive baught in years, i hate reading, but alot of my dads old baseball books raised my curiousity enough to buy this

its funny/ironic to read his details of the "hazing" rituals by team-mates trying to drive him off the team, considering Ty's historic career embarassed the hell out of them all

especially that McIntyre guy, what a jerk



anybody know what his relationship with Ty was when they were team-mates after Cobb became a star? Cobb says they never shook hands, but obviously I'd imagine there had to be some sort of relationship during those years