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Thread: Ty Cobb General Thread

  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net
    I would only put on it my Ty Cobb historical posts. And some of others historical stuff. Most of the Ty/Babe battles would go. We all had great fun with them, but they were mostly chit-chat.

    I have already gotten rid of about a third of my posts already, and more are about to go.

    My goal was to have a good, solid repository of Cobb stuff, but now that there is 37 pages, no one in their right mind would seriously attempt to read through it. It's just gotten too bloated. So I'm hoping that if everyone else deletes their posts, it will contract down from 37 to hopefully 10-13 pages.

    At least that's the idea. But since when have any of my bright ideas panned out lately! I'm just trying to save this darn thing from becoming a bloated, obsolete, irrelevant monstrosity.

    Bill
    1) I told you this would happen
    2) I don't think you can delete the post, just the material. So you will have pages of almost-blank posts that have to be at least ten/fifteen? characters long. Each "page" of Cobb has twenty-five posts, right?
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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  2. #422
    Bill,

    You mentioned starting another thread. So why don't you do that, transfer the posts you want from this thread, forget about this one, and let it sink, like you said?

    It's not that I'm too lazy to delete my posts. But even if I do, how many others will? If they don't, it will still be bloated.
    Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

  3. #423
    I can't find an easy way to delete my posts. Tried the search tools, no luck, and I don't have time to scan the 37 pages--doing the first 2 had me bleary eyed.
    If someone can tel me how to gather my posts, I'll delete the non appropriate ones.

  4. #424
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    Hey Bill, I happened to watch "Cobb" last nite again, and while I know that most of it is a characterature, it did give me pause to think about something. What can you tell me about his kids? The movie implied he had no relationship with them, was that true? Also, were they the beneficiaries of his estate, which had to be quite large?

    Just curious...

    KH14
    “Well, I like to say I’m completely focused, right? I mean, the game’s on the line. It’s not like I’m thinking about what does barbecue Pop Chips and Cholula taste like. Because I already know that answer — it tastes friggin’ awesome!"--Brian Wilson

  5. #425
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    i just started reading the Ty Cobb book with Al Stump, Ty seemed to be a pretty cool guy even though the introduction portrays him to be a miserable old fart

    this is the first book ive baught in years, i hate reading, but alot of my dads old baseball books raised my curiousity enough to buy this

    its funny/ironic to read his details of the "hazing" rituals by team-mates trying to drive him off the team, considering Ty's historic career embarassed the hell out of them all

    especially that McIntyre guy, what a jerk



    anybody know what his relationship with Ty was when they were team-mates after Cobb became a star? Cobb says they never shook hands, but obviously I'd imagine there had to be some sort of relationship during those years
    Last edited by Blackout; 05-06-2005 at 01:46 PM.

  6. #426
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    I see wherever Bill goes he starts a thread called "Ty Cobb General Thread"

    So predictible Bill. Do you have any idea how badly I want project retrosheet to hurry up and fill in their missing games back to 1900 so I can see if Cobb really did advance people or himself an inordinately large number of times that don't show up in the statistical record? I wish I could go back in time to 1865 or 1987 when they were first deciding what statistics should be kept and beat people senseless until they realized how much they were freakin' leaving out.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackout805
    anybody know what his relationship with Ty was when they were team-mates after Cobb became a star? Cobb says they never shook hands, but obviously I'd imagine there had to be some sort of relationship during those years
    Bill,

    I'd like to know the answer to that question also, and I'm sure you're the right guy to ask.

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by KHenry14
    Hey Bill, I happened to watch "Cobb" last nite again, and while I know that most of it is a characterature, it did give me pause to think about something. What can you tell me about his kids? The movie implied he had no relationship with them, was that true? Also, were they the beneficiaries of his estate, which had to be quite large?

    Just curious...

    KH14
    Bill,

    I also would like to know about Ty's kids. He barely even mentions them in his autobiography. Did they ever play baseball in the minors, or even college? What did Ty think of them? What was Ty's relationship with them?

  9. #429
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    Chris,

    I wrote up Ty's relationship with his team mates in my file, "Did All of Ty's Team mates Hate Him." You will find this file as post 4 on Ty Cobb Thread.

    Ty had 5 kids, and 3 sons. None played ball. But Ty did have a brother named Paul who did play baseball. He was a good ballplayer too in the minors. No one gave him a shot however to play in the MLs. Two of Ty's boys died in the early 50's of cancer.

    Ty left 3/4 of his estate to his 3 surviving kids. His estate was estimated at around $12.m. $10m from GM, and $2.m from Coca Cola. So we cam estimate that each kid got around $3m., before Uncle Sam got his bite.

    He left 1/4 of his estate to his Georgia Educational Scholarship Foundation. Many poor Georgia kids have been put through college and it's still going strong, as is his hospital.

    Ty's relationship with his kids was tortured. He was always wanting to be away somewhere. He was a terrible father. Really bad, and they all carried the scars of his non-fatherly habits. They had love-hate with him but hated to have outsiders hate their Dad in print. They felt they had the right to hate him but outsiders did not. Which I can understand. But his 3 surviving kids, and his first wife did fly to Atlanta, and surrounded Ty for his last 2 weeks in the hospital, and they tried to patch up their horrible past crap.

    Bill Burgess
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 09-04-2005 at 04:27 PM.

  10. #430
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    All my Historical Files are now enshrined on a website and can be viewed.

    Included are all my Ty Cobb Memorial Collection files,

    as well as my other, assorted, general baseball files,

    and my own, personal Website-in-the-making, Reference & Research. It's a vast, sports/entertainment database, and its called here, Biographical Sketches. Well worth a glance.

    The email address is: www.baseballguru.com/bburgess

    Many here already have these files, but for those who don't, it's a good one.

    Bill Burgess

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3
    I believe that the source you give came from a special that aired on TV in the 1990s, which I did tape and have reviewed many, many times.

    The program was presented on FOX TV and was titled "Front Page."
    It was 16 MM home movie taken by Matt Kandle SR and loaned to FOX TV by his great grandson Kurt Kandle.

    I have put together all that I could from that video, some hard cover books, words from the N.Y.Times and Herald Tribune archives.

    Some fans toss lemons onto the field as he steps to the plate.

    The video does show Ruth acknowledging the first called two strikes with his fingers.

    He is clearly angered by the Cub bench who is riding him. He makes quick dagger like thrusting motions directed at the Cub bench, yelling at them.

    Cub player Billy Herman says the Cubs were calling him, big fat slob, washed up. Ruth's chief tormentor Cub pitcher Guy Bush is so far out of the Cub dug out yelling at Ruth that the ump orders him to get back to the bench.

    At one point he then raises one finger and yells at the Cub Bench. Cub catcher Hartnett says Ruth said, " It only takes one to hit it."

    Root yells something to Ruth and Ruth yells back to Root. Accordung to Gehrig Ruth said to Root, " I'm going to knock the next pitch right down your goddamn throat."

    In the end Ruth hits a long home run to center field, past the flag pole 440 feet.

    Did he point, I did not see that.

    It seems the issue here is did he call the shot. Certainly we will never know. Myself I don't think he ever said he was going to hit a home run.

    I think he did the next best thing. It was the battle of the wills. The entire club bench said that Ruth had seen better days. Ruth said he still had something left, Ruth clearly won the battle.

    We all know that even the greatest hitters will make out ( walks excluded) almost 7 out of every 10 at bats. Ruth had already hit a home run in the first inning.

    In the second inning he just missed another, pinning Kiki Cuyler up against the fence in right to pull down his drive.


    It takes a lot of balls to shoot off your mouth when your already down two strikes and then he delivers. Naturally when it's Ruth a home run is not enough, it has to be a monster shot. You can see as he runs it out he makes pushing gestures to the Cub bench, telling them to sit down.

    So he may not have actually said he was about to hit one out but, he did shut up the Cubs even though in the hole two strikes down.
    STEVEOX and all interested here it is, a post of mine from April. I would add that Ruth was clearly angered and made those dagger like gestures pointing at the Cub bench after the first called strike and the second called strike.This can clearly be seen on that video.

    In another interview since I posted the above, Cub Billy Jurges said that Ruth did point but was pointing at Cub pitcher Root, this could be where the confusion comes in.

    As I stated in my original post, no way to tell if he pointed, I don't think so, no way to tell if he declared he was going to hit one out, I don't believe he did. I realize as great a hitter as Ruth was he, no one can hit a home run at will, predict it.

    One thing is clear, most agree on, he took two strikes, raised one finger, then two fingers. He then raised one finger again yelling at the Cub bench who were riding him. In the words of the man who was standing right behind Ruth, Cub catcher Gabby Hartnett, Ruth yelled "it only takes one."
    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 10-21-2005 at 08:42 PM.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3
    Earlier in that day, before the game took place. From the N.Y Times archives.

    Chicago OCT.1 (ap). Babe Ruth home run king of the N.Y.Yankees brought cheer to Lee William Koeppen 16, today when he visited the youth who was blinded and seriously injured in the bomb explosion in front of the home of Judge John P. McGoorty.
    Ruth presented an autographed ball to the boy lying in bed with his head swathed in bandages.

    On the field before the game As Ruth shags fly balls during batting practice fans toss several lemons in his direction. Ruth playfully underhands some lemons back into the stands.

    Ruth at bat during batting practice smashed 9 long drives into the RF bleachers. After each drive he turns to the Cub bench and grins.

    Game time, the real thing, first inning.

    From the N.Y.Herald Tribune, written by Richards Vidmer.
    N.Y.Herald Tribune Oct. 1.(ap) As he waited to bat in the first inning," He paused to jest with the raging Cubs, pointed to the right field bleachers and grinned."
    He stepped to the plate in that at bat and hit a home run deep into the right center field bleachers.
    STEVE here is another post from April. This took place on the same day as the "called shot."

  13. #433
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    Brothers,

    A very good thing has occurred. My very good friend, and fellow Ty associate, Wesley Frick has joined Fever as a member.

    Wesley was born and raised in Royston, GA, home of Ty Cobb, and is the formost Ty Cobb historian/researcher/advocate I know. His knowledge is extensive, and he is to Ty Cobb, what Gene Carney is to the Black Sox. And now we have his knowledge here on Fever. Wesley also maintains his own Ty Cobb Website on Yahoo. http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/tycobbclub/

    Wesley has been the historian of the Ty Cobb Museum in Royston since its inception in 1998. He now resides in Tampa, and was born in 1971. He is kept quite busy, and makes his living in the food industry. Here is his very first post on Fever, in the Detroit Tigers forum, and it is MUST-READING for every Ty fan.

    http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=72

    I hope you all will address whatever Ty questions to him that I couldn't address to your satisfaction. He is also familiar with the deadball era of baseball.

    And he is working on a Ty Cobb book!
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wesley's Bio:

    John Wesley Fricks was born in Atlanta February 3, 1971 and moved to Royston, Georgia in 1974. He grew up on COBB St., one block away from the old COBB home place.

    He got involved on the ground floor of the creation of the TY COBB Museum in January 1998. Wesley worked six months with Museum Director and Planning and Development Committee to establish this memorial to baseball’s most celebrated athlete. He was slated to be the Keynote Speaker at the opening ceremonies on July 17th until Phil Neikro’s services was secured. It was the year Neikro was inducted into baseball’s Hall of Fame.

    He continued to work with the new Committee established, the TY COBB Advisory Committee, to continue to upgrade and enhance the material inside the Museum. Just last year, the TY COBB Educational Foundation was celebrating fifty years of giving scholarships to needy Georgia students. They were interested in getting a display in our Museum. Wesley was asked to work with a team to provide this outlet for the TCEF to get some exposure. He was asked to write a video script with only three days to get it done. He scored and scored big with his creation of the TCEF DVD video that is a wonderful addition to the Museum.

    Wesley was the keynote speaker at the Museum’s October 2003 unveiling of the TCEF display. He also designed the baseball card that was released on the same day. His contribution to the TY COBB Museum has been tireless and energetic.

    Wesley has been a pillar of strength for TY COBB’s legacy over the last decade, participating in baseball symposiums, television shows, and was even asked by Major League Baseball Productions for an interview at Turner Field in Atlanta to be on Baseball’s All-Century Team video in 1999. He was interviewed again at Turner Field in 2002 for Turner South’s Liars & Legends show that featured TY COBB.

    Wesley has continued to do follow up with people from all over the country who contact the Museum for various purposes. His professionalism and knowledge of Ty Cobb baseball during that era has made a significant impact on what we do here at the Museum.

    TY COBB Museum
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bill Burgess
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 02-20-2006 at 12:02 PM.


  14. #435
    There's a great article on page 38 of the latest SABR Baseball Research Journal titled: "Was Ty Cobb a Power Hitter?" written by Roy Brownell. It makes a cogent and compelling case that Cobb was not only an outstanding power hitter, but a great homerun hitter. It also refutes the myopic stance (repeated by several regulars here ad nauseum) that Ty Cobb "Couldn't (or didn't) adapt to the liveball".

    I wondered if anyone here had read it and what their thoughts were.

  15. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by csh19792001 View Post
    There's a great article on page 38 of the latest SABR Baseball Research Journal titled: "Was Ty Cobb a Power Hitter?" written by Roy Brownell. It makes a cogent and compelling case that Cobb was not only an outstanding power hitter, but a great homerun hitter. It also refutes the myopic stance (repeated by several regulars here ad nauseum) that Ty Cobb "Couldn't (or didn't) adapt to the liveball".

    I wondered if anyone here had read it and what their thoughts were.
    Can you post the article here? I'd love to read it!
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  16. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Can you post the article here? I'd love to read it!
    I don't have the time to type it out, unfortunately. It's fairly lengthy, and has some nice charts/graphs. Since it's members only, though, I don't think I can find it online. Randy might have the publication, and he can type like nobody's business.

    Does anyone here have issue handy and the time to type it all out?

  17. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by csh19792001 View Post
    I don't have the time to type it out, unfortunately. It's fairly lengthy, and has some nice charts/graphs. Since it's members only, though, I don't think I can find it online. Randy might have the publication, and he can type like nobody's business.

    Does anyone here have issue handy and the time to type it all out?
    If you can scan it you can upload it or send the scanned copy to me and I'll type it out. Anything for my fellow BBFers.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  18. #439
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    Okay I read the article and think some things got over-stated. Ty Cobb could be considered a "great" home run hitter for his time. He was one of a small handful of players that ended up with over 100 homers for their career. One thing though is that before 1919 there was just 10 players over 100 homers for their career all had done obviously before the 1920's era. At that point Cobb had 67 homers. Just 10 years later there was 28 total players with over 100 homers, and George Sisler and three others would go over 100 the next year. By 1939 there was 65 players with over 100 and by the next year another 5 would go over. In all likelihood if the rule changes don't happen Ty Cobb doesn't hit over 100 homers. Now obviously that doesn't mean he wasn't a slugger but the point is that the author was pointing out the fact that Ty Cobb in his day would have had similar totals of other big "sluggers", the problem is that none of them that he is getting compared to got to play in the 1920's. Of course though I should mention that we run into another problem in that Ty Cobb's era actually had lower home run rates then the 19th century homer rates (see David Vincents article in same BRJ).

    Second part is that he mentions that the view that a huge chunk of Ty Cobb's homers were inside the park homers but that to say that takes away from his slugger tag is false. He states some reasons why and I don't really disagree with those reasons but I think again he over-states the case. He tries to pin the dissenting opinion on the view that people are saying that Cobb's ITPHR were solely the product of speed. That isn't true, obiviously Cobb's homers were not solely the product of speed. You definitely have to hit the ball at least hard and sometimes far (on the fly) to get a ITPHR but to pin the other side solely on speed is wrong. Yes you have to hit it hard but you also have to have speed to get home. So while it might very well not be 100% because of speed it certainly could be 50% because of speed.

    The second reason argued is that the parks were mammoth and there were hits that would have been homers in a smaller park. Again no doubt but again I disagree with this kind of all or nothing type reasoning. yes there would have been ITPHR that would have gone over a wall if they were closer but it is also true that there would have been less ITPHR because of shorter distances and it is also true that there would probably be some more outs as well.


    Another thing he argues about is that uses Cobb's placement in the leader board as proof that he was a home run hitter in his day. But he fails to mention that when the leader is only hitting 9 homers or so practically everybody is in the leaderboard. One windy day, one good day at say the Baker Bowl, or one rainy sloppy day in Washington, could instantly cement your place on the leaderboard for the whole year.

    Finally he uses triples and doubles to further point out Cobb's power yet at the same time he completely neglects one facet of Cobb's game that helped make him great, and that his sheer determination to go as far as possible all the time.

    In the end though I don't disagree with what Ty Cobb himself said. He said that he was confident that in a good year he could hit 20 to 30 homers, and that it should be noted was with Ty believing he would have to change his game to get to that total.

    At the end of the article he says that Cobb could have hit with power like Brett and Musial, and again I think that would not be an unreasonable expectation (with me shading closer to Brett in the homer department). But I don't think anyone would think Ty Cobb was a "slugger" or really a power hitter.

  19. #440
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    Here's a great video that I ran across as I was looking through the Sports Illustrated vault. It was made by Wesley Fricks. It has outstanding video clips that I've never seen before.

    Check it out.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjP87TAaDng
    "Batting slumps? I never had one. When a guy hits .358, he doesn't have slumps."

    Rogers Hornsby, 1961

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