Ty Cobb General Thread

[csh19792001]

Originally posted by Roy Hobbs
Here's the pertinent info I crunched, from page 9 of this thread:



The only mistake in that is probably I just distributed the 718 run differential out evenly amongst the 8 teams, instead of distributing them based on the PROPORTION of leage runs each team averaged. I don't think the difference would be monumental though, and the leg work required to make that correction is just too much work to spend on an old argument me and Bill have already laid to rest.

There's really no point in going any further because he knows my stance on Ruth home stats and I know his.

And going in to it any further will just stir up old tensions.

Ill do the numbers, both league wise and team wise, from 06-28 (05' wasn't a full season for Ty), and from 18' to 34' for Ruth (it would be unfair to him to add in an entire season of great offense, when he hardly played.) Lo mismo, not right to add in seasons where a guy had 92, 132, and 136 at bats. Not enough sampling size. (the weighting, internal consistency, and validity of the metric would be thrown off). Hence leaving 05' out also.

But it might be a few days.

[csh19792001]

Ill do the numbers, both league wise and team wise, from 06-28 (05' wasn't a full season for Ty), and from 18' to 34' for Ruth (it would be unfair to him to add in an entire season of great offense, when he hardly played.) Lo mismo, not right to add in seasons where a guy had 92, 132, and 136 at bats. Not enough sampling size. (the weighting, internal consistency, and validity of the metric would be thrown off). Hence leaving 05' out also.

But it might be a few days.


Actually, Roy-
In the meantime (speaking of indexing) here are a few links I think you'll find interesting. Quite germane.

http://www.exploratorium.edu/baseball/1921_TC.html

Put Ty starting his offensive career in 1920, and see what happens.....

http://www.exploratorium.edu/baseball/1905_BR.html

[csh19792001]

Bill-
Much simpler than SO/AB seems to be just averaging things. I figured out that (given the strikeout numbers we have), Cobb would have K'd about 560 times for his career (if the numbers had been kept from 1905-12). Still not bad for a guy who batted 11,429 times and led in slugging 8 times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So of course Jackson, Speaker, and Collins K'd less per at bat. Not one of them was the slugger Ty Cobb was, or near the hitter.

[Imapotato]

In my baseball simulation replay...Ty Cobb K's about 30 times a year...not bad at all.

Oh yeah...he was drafted by the St. Louis Browns...lol

Cobb's first year in the league

123 games
478 ABS
93 runs
184 hits
20 doubles
14 triples
4 hrs
69 rbis
73 sbs
19 Caught stealing
49 walks
29 k's
.385 avg
.444 obp
31.7 offensive win shares
3.6 defensive win shares

Won AL MVP award
Won AL ROY award
Won AL CF Gold Glove Award

Too bad that Ty will probably never win a World Series unless the Browns let him go...

[four tool]

Hi Guys,

Illigtimi non carborundum is good, but the ones we say it to may think that we qualify from their perspective. That's why I choose the other comments, an open mind is more important than the perspective of who's a %*&$#*!

Bill, I'm glad you appreciated my comments. That just shows the joy of this forum, a Ty Guy and a Ruth Rooter can agree to disagree and still support each other.

Mark aka four tool

[four tool]

When I got here, I was arrogant, insufferable, condescending and too proud. I thought I was the smartest person in the room.


Being arrogant etc.has nothing to do with whether you are the smartest guy or not Look at Ty's and Babe's approaches to the game, opposite yet one or the other is the best ever.

[four tool]

Yep, a baseball ball. there's a book out by Louisville Slugger that uses bases to determine the best hitter. they basically take total bases and see how much over the league TB a given player was in his time. Yes Ruth is #1 and Ted is #2. Cobb is 9th. BUTTTTT.....

Ruth's bases are about 3150 Cobbs about 1950. If Cobb has even 1200 baserunning bases, guress who wins? If it's the 1500 you once claculated, even if Ruth also gets more, it's so close that the numbers are not enough, or possibly Cobb wins outright.

Here's something statistical which gives Cobb a real chance once all the numbers are counted.

Yes guys I still need to do the home/road splits, had a sick puppy for a few days, they are coming.

[Imapotato]

UPDATE on TY COBB in my Historic Replay

Ok, 1st Ty almost single handed brought the Browns to the WS...with help from Bobby Wallace and Larry Schafly (Larry didn't last long in real life, but his limited time showed a walking defensive player)

Ty hit this in 1907

149 games
618 ABs
102 runs
251 hits (New AL and MLB record besting Nap Lajoie's 237 in 1901)
34 doubles
10 triples
5 hrs
109 rbis
83 SBs (beating his ML record 73)
19 CS
47 bbs
29 K's
45.7 OWS!!!!!
3.5 DWS

Won his 2nd MVP Award
2nd GG
and made the All Star team this year, unlike last year when he had a slow start
Lost the Triple Crown by just hitting 5 HRs behind Dusty Miller (8) of the Red Sox and Harry Davis (7) and Tommy leach (7) of the A's

Ty doesn't exactly have a 'terrible' team around him

C Branch Rickey---.255 1st GG at C
1b Tom Jones-----.279 27 sbs
2b-Larry Schlafly---72 bbs 56 sbs .289 2 time GG in 1904 and 1905 All Star in 1907
3B-Bill Coughlin---.283 lost his HR power after hitting 7 HRs last 3 years
SS-Bobby Wallace---only played 95 games, unable to get his 5th GG award at SS
LF-George Stone---.317 64 rbis
RF Charlie Hemphill and Dave Fultz (need an upgrade)

Again it's pitching and that's why St. Louis was only good for 3rd behind the Red Sox AWESOME staff of
40 yr old Cy Young 32-16 2.24 184 ks 31.6 PWS
Bob Wicker 26-17 2.33 226 ks (1st in AL)
Chief Bender 25-13 1.82 (1st)

and the White Sox have
Doc White 31-16 2.09
Ed Walsh Sr 25-20 2.48
and the surprising
Bob Rhoads 27-18 2.18

I hope you enjoy this Bill, I know Ty being on the Browns is a stretch but Cy Young HAS to retire someday and then I think the Browns might give Ty a World Series!

and bad news since I know you love Rube Waddell as much as I...

Poor Rube with the invariables that I have suffered a Career Ending Injury at 27 with a torn back muscle (probably from carrying that stove out of the burning building)

He still has the ML record with 337 ks but jis final career is
67-64
3.51 ERA
98 CGS
5 SHO
303 bbs
1195 ks (13th all time in only 4 seasons!)
69.5 PWS

[leecemark]

Bill, if you haven't already seen today's new "best offensive player of all time" thread, check it out. It will make your day.

[julusnc]

I read an interesting article in a sportscard publication today.

It was about a elderly man in Cobb County GA and how he had a 36 oz sterling silver baseball bat that was given to Ty Cobb in 1922 by a local business as a salute for what Cobb had done for the local community.

The elderly man said as a small boy in the 1930's his father took the bat in exchange for some car and truck repair Cobb needed.
The man's father never sold it saying one day anything that belonged to the greatest baseball player ever would be worth a fortune.

The old timer was right!


I thought this was interesting.I wonder if many of Cobb's awards he won over his long career have since been destroyed after using them as trade bait.

How many tangible awards did Cobb win?

How many of these are in museums?

Just was an interesting topic I thought and worthy of placing and asking on the Ty Cobb thread.


Have a good day friends - Jeremy

[RuthMayBond]

Originally posted by julusnc
I read an interesting article in a sportscard publication today.

It was about a elderly man in Cobb County GA and how he had a 36 oz sterling silver baseball bat that was given to Ty Cobb in 1922 by a local business as a salute for what Cobb had done for the local community.

The elderly man said as a small boy in the 1930's his father took the bat in exchange for some car and truck repair Cobb needed.
The man's father never sold it saying one day anything that belonged to the greatest baseball player ever would be worth a fortune.

The old timer was right!


I thought this was interesting.I wonder if many of Cobb's awards he won over his long career have since been destroyed after using them as trade bait.

How many tangible awards did Cobb win?

At least one Chalmers automobile, right?

[julusnc]

Yes I have heard of the automobile he won and also a crown that was made for him by the Tiffany Company and presented by Ford Motors back in the 1920's to Mr Cobb......

I just thought it would be interesting to hear from people that might have seen his displays in museums around the country.

[csh19792001]

Ok-
We we're comparing the run scoring of the TEAMS of Cobb vs. Ruth, in order to show how much their stats are bolstered by not only their era, but the team batting around them. But Roy forgot to take out their respective contributions, and hence compared each player to themselves, which is not statistically sound and provides an innacurate picture.

So, I took the runs each player produced each year (from Total Baseball) out of their teams aggregate runs scored each year. I ommited years when either player didnt play 100 games (05, 06, 14, 26, and 28 for Cobb), (1914-18 and 1935 for Ruth). I did this because it would unfairly weight the measure.

In 15 seasons with 100 or more games played, Ruth's teams scored 659 runs/year WITHOUT him.

In 19 seaons where his teams played 100 or more games, Ty Cobb's teams averaged 503 runs/year WITHOUT him.

So 503 vs. 659- this is 31% more runs per year without him. That's an enormus advantage. Ruth was on much better offensive teams, even without his tremendous contributions.

We can do overall, en masse era comparisons, (runs/game, or BA, OBP, SLG) for 1919-34 vs. 1906-27, also. That also shows Ruth with a huge advantage as well.

AND- the links above (from the Exploratorium) don't even factor in team performance- and look at Cobb playing his entire career against the liveball.

[ElHalo]

Originally posted by [email protected]
How racist Was Ty?


Here is a brief piece that went out today from Wesley Frick.



Home > News > Opinion

Ty Cobb's label as racist is undeserved, baseball historian says

Web posted Thursday, May 20, 2004

Letter to the Editor
The people of Augusta need to be educated on Ty Cobb. And the NAACP
needs to revisit its position on Mr. Cobb. Augusta's commissioners
need to consider naming the city's minor league baseball stadium
after the great Hall of Famer.


Here is what the NAACP doesn't know: Mr. Cobb's father was a Georgia
state senator from the 31st District who voted against a bill
introduced and approved by the Senate that allowed taxes deriving
only from black properties to finance the black schools. This was in
1900.

Ty Cobb set more records in baseball than any other player. He was
the first player inducted into baseball's Hall of Fame in 1936. He
was the most celebrated athlete in baseball history.

In 1950, Cobb dedicated a new hospital in Royston, Ga., to provide
medical attention to the region. In Dr. J.B. Gilbert, Mr. Cobb found
one of the finest African-American doctors to serve the black
population. Before desegregation, Dr. Gilbert also serviced white
patients and later became chief of staff at Cobb Memorial Hospital.

In 1953, Mr. Cobb established the Ty Cobb Educational Foundation to
give scholarships to needy students in Georgia. Hundreds and hundreds
of young black students have become beneficiaries of this educational
fund.

Alexander George Washington Rivers was a black employee of Mr. Cobb's
for 18 years and named his first-born Ty Cobb Rivers. "Even if it
would have been a gal, I would have named her the same," Mr. Rivers
said in an interview with The Detroit News.


Bill Burgess

Uh... this article doesn't really prove anything at all. There could have been any number of reasons why his father voted that way... and his father wasn't Tyrus. And if I worked for somebody famous, and was sufficiently dim-witted to be overawed by their fame, I could see myself naming a kid after him just to show everybody that I had worked for some famous guy. Whether or not I could stand the guy personally. I tend not to be a fan of journalistic articles that set out a statement and then offer facts that only tangentially or not at all relate to the assertion made, let alone support it.

[Imapotato]

I have a theory on why Ty was racist during his youth.

Either two things

1) His house was robbed by a black person before, and thus when his mother shot his father, he jumped to conclusions and stereotyped that if a black man didn't rob his house the 1st time, his father wouldn't have died.

2) His mother was having an affair with a black man, and his father was trying to catch her with this man, and when caught, she shot him, rather than be kicked to the curb.

Far fetched, but usually intense hatred comes from a traumatic experience.

Ty did grow as a man, and kept evolving like some people do, and probably saw the many errors of his ways, but we will never know, he really didn't talk alot about that incident later in life...but he must have come to terms with it.

Now, as for Babe Ruth and the mysterious circumstances involving his 1st wife's death...why doesn't anyone question that?