Ty Cobb General Thread

[RuthMayBond]

since Pie outhit him by a lot, Pie is much to be prefered to Brooks overall.

Brooks Robinson, 105 OPS+; Pie Traynor, 107 OPS+ so I guess it depends upon how you define "a lot"

[leecemark]

RMB, this issue was discussed in considerably more depth in a side trail on the Honus Wagner 4th best SS thread. If your interest extends beyond a quick one liner, you might weigh in there. Personally I can see it either way between Robinson and Traynor, but neither is near the top of the heap at 3B for me.

[RuthMayBond]

RMB, this issue was discussed in considerably more depth in a side trail on the Honus Wagner 4th best SS thread. If your interest extends beyond a quick one liner, you might weigh in there. Personally I can see it either way between Robinson and Traynor, but neither is near the top of the heap at 3B for me.

I've seen it, and the guy who ranks Schmidt out of AT LEAST the top three 3B is a joke

[leecemark]

--I think Schmidt is so much better than every other thirdbaseman who ever lived that its difficult to even come up with a reasonable arguement for anybody else. Sure I'd prefer it if he hit for higher average. If he'd hit .300 for his career we could be arguing about him as one of the greatest PLAYERS who ever lived (top 5 or 6) instead of the best 3B. As it is, I see him as one of the 15 best ever. Its one thing to have a preference for high average players. Its unfortunate if your bias is so strong that it blinds you to the greatness of a player who does EVERYTHING else well and has that one shortcoming in his resume. Even in BA Schmidt finsished right at league avaerage in spite of some terrible BA years to start and finish.

[prof93]

Eddie Mathews really doesn't take a back seat to Schmidt in my opinion. There numbers for their careers are very close. I would have no problem taking Mathews.

[RuthMayBond]

Eddie Mathews really doesn't take a back seat to Schmidt in my opinion. There numbers for their careers are very close. I would have no problem taking Mathews.

But did Mathews lead his league like Schmidt did? Was his glove close to Schmidt's?

[leecemark]

--As a hitter Mathews was fairly close to Schmidt, although as RMB says he wasn't as dominant in comparison to his league. What really separates them is Mathews was average with the glove and on the bases. Schmidt was one of the top defensive thridbasemen ever and a very good baserunner.

[prof93]

At 3rd base, yes his glove was comparable. Did he lead his league the Schmidt did, that would depend on if you feel the NL was stronger in Mathews time. Mathews outhomered Aaron while they were in Milwaukee, and the battle for offensive numbers in Mathews time was much tougher than in Schmidts

[bf-lurker]

The Library of Congree has quite a few "Spalding Base Ball Guides". The years they have are 1889, 1894, 1895, 1906, 1910-13, 1915, 1917, 1922, 1929-30, 1934 and 1939.

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/spalding...ibTitles1.html

[ElHalo]

Bill,

Not sure if you forgot about him or just rate him lower than I do, but Hal Trosky is better than more than half the guys you mentioned.

[four tool]

Gehrig over Sisler for career value. He played literally every day and his numbers are phenomenal. Also, his home park actually hurt his stats.
For peak, George all the way, and if he hadn't had the eye problem, he could well be the best ever.

PS I love the phrase "so and so light" great way to put it

[leecemark]

--I've kocked Sisler plenty before so I'll chip in something positive this time. His only real competition for the best baserunning 1B of all time is Frank Chance and I'd have to give the nod to Sisler. He also has the reputation of being one of the best fielding 1B of all time. Personally I'd vote for Hernandez, but George was no doubt slick with the leather. I like more power and at least a few walks from my 1B, but for hitting for average his only competition would be Carew if you considered him there.
--As for Trosky, Bill you have probably read some about the all time sim league we were discussing on clash of the teams. I just finished the 1B scoutign rports and Trosky looks more good than great. Adjusted for era he comes up 270/327/489 with an average glove. Of course, that isn't the definative word on him, but remember even at his peak he you'd have a hard time arguing he was better than the 4th best 1B in an 8 team league. Tough field though with Gehrig, Foxx and Greenberg. He had his carrer cut short by chornic migraines, so his career totals are nothing special.

[ElHalo]

Mark,

You're right on Trosky only being the fourth best 1Bman in the AL, but... come on. Miguel Tejada was probably only the fourth best SS in the AL the last few years, but he's still pretty darn good, and has a right to rank somewhere in the top 20 all time, probably.

Trosky's glove was slightly above average, but nowhere on par with Sisler, certainly. He wasn't a Cecil Fielder/ Mo Vaughn 1Bman, though... he was all right.

And he was a short career guy... but he was very, very good for that short career. Not on par with Gehrig and Foxx, of course... but probably better than Garvey or Fielder.

[four tool]

More on Sisler, all thanks to the original Historical Abstract:

Rookies in 1915: Sisler, Ruth, Hornsby
Rookie 1916 Heilmann

Through 1922, Sisler outhit Hornsby every year except 1916 and 1920!
Same time frame, he outhit Heilmann every year except 1921!

Brock2 using 1920-1922 would have George at about 3,800 hits .357 average for his career (without the optic problem of course).

Bill James thinks that Brock2 might be underestimating Sisler and mentions 4,000 hits and 362 lifetime average.

Bill, you don't have to apologize for rating George as #1

[Windy City Fan]

Bill, I can understand your stance completely. I too have a few choices for my all time team that are probably not the absolute best player at the position. When I rank 1st basemen, I put Gerhig at the top without a second thought. As you have said, the numbers clearly justify it. Yet, when forming my all time team, I put Sisler at first without hesitation. Why? Because I believe that while Gerhig is probably a more dangerous hitter in any given at bat, Sisler is a better player to have for an entire game. Sisler can win a game for you a number of ways, with his bat, with his glove, or with his speed.

The same is true for 3rd basemen. In your Pie Traynor thread, I ranked Schimdt 1st, but had Wade Boggs at 4th (or maybe 5th, not sure) for third basemen. Schimdt is a great hitter and for any given at bat, he is the best guy to have. But over the course of a game or a series of games, I'll take Wade's contact hitting and exceptional eye. Wade can help wear down a pitcher, and either get him tired or get into the weak middle relief section of the bullpen. Plus both he and his teammates get a better look at the pitcher for their next at bats. Wade can make an out and still move a runner over. Those little things add up to wins over the course of a game, a series or a whole season - especially when players like Boggs and Sisler are paired with players playing the exact same style of game.

So I can rectify the difference between saying, "He is the most productive first basemen ever." and "This other guy is m pick for my team."

[prof93]

Just for you Bill!!!
Just simmed a season on DiamondMind's Greatest Players CD and Ty Cobb was something else.

Cobb's Season against the best ever: Overall finish on (LeaderBoard)
G-162(tied 1st)
AB-673(18th)
HITS-245(1st)
2B-39(11th)
3B-15(tied 10th)
HR-19(didn't feel like figuring it out)
RUNS-124(7th)
RBIs-112(15th)
BB-49
K's-69
SB-45(11th)
CS-20
BA-.364(1st)
OBP-.405(9th)
SLG%-.551(9th)

Cobb also had the longest hitting streak at 27 games.

[prof93]

Bill you really should join our DiamondMind Classic League that Mark is starting. All you have to know is the players through out history(and you got that covered) ans then set your managerial preferences. We would help you out!!! Check out http://www.diamond-mind.com/you would like it!!!

[prof93]

First, post in Mark's DiamondMindClassic League and let him know your in!!
Second, goto the Diamond-Mind website and check it out.
Third, begin to prepare your Draft Board, and at least go 10-12 deep at every position.

Fourth, follow along in Mark's topic for the upcoming draft date, once he has everything, you just wait for his updates and see how your team does.

[RuthMayBond]

Here is my top 20 for 1B, for all around, both offense/defense.

1. Sisler - '20-22 - was thought the best PLAYER in BB. Best fielding 1B in ML, won 4 SB titles, hit over .400 2 of 3 yrs.
3. Terry - Superb fielder, best-fielding 1B in NL, hit over 1.26 of L. aver. 2 yrs. running.
6. Mattingly - Great glove, hit great too for a few yrs. Injured messed up career. Good leadership.
11. Will Clark - Slickest glove reminds us of Snow today. Good bat initially, then lost bat, like Mattingly. Sweet, fluid stroke.
13. Garvey - very consistnent hitter over long time, good fielder.

Sisler & Terry were better fielding 1B than Hernandez & Power? My hypothetical Gold Glove project has neither found that out nor that Mattingly nor Snow were that great. Garvey seems to be the dilemma, either guys hate his glove or love it.

[RuthMayBond]

From '20-22, Sisler was arguably the finest hitter, fielder, runner in the game. I only use the word arguable due to Babe Ruth did achieve a nice little peak there also

Here are his remarks concerning his choices for 2B.

"Hornsby has one or two weaknesses. He doesn't shine in going back after pop flies. But he has the best throw to first base that I ever saw. And he's also a good man on double plays. Hornsby was never a base-stealer, but he's really a great base-runner. His speed has never been recognized by the public, but he was phenomenally fast, in his prime. As a hitter, Hornsby stands out. He is doubtless the greatest hitter the National League has produced since the days of Hans Wagner, if not beyond.
But Hornsby's long range hitting far excelled anything that Collins ever showed, and I would prefer him on all round form at second base."

In the field Terrry is fast and mechanically a great performer. There are a few minor defects about his work, but he seems to realize them and worked hard last season to overcome them. Undouubedly he's the greatest first baseman in the game. (Author's note: By 1954, he had replaced Terry with Gehrig, on his all time team.)

"You need more than one pitcher, however, and I'd make a place for Dazzy Vance. Vance has received a good deal of publicity from time to time. But at that I doubt if his ability has been as widely recognized as it deserves. Vance, at his best, had nearly as much sheer stuff as Walter Johnson. And he had a far better curve than Johnson ever knew.

1) You're talking Sisler for THREE years
2) You don't give much evidence about Terry
3) The Hornsby stuff confirms the statistical record that he wasn't a horrible glove as some claim
4) Why wasn't Terry replaced with Gehrig BEFORE 1954?
5) Vance? as the second best pitcher ever?

[RuthMayBond]

And I HAVEN'T been ranting about Sizz for 3 yrs. now. I only joined Fever in Oct., 2003, a mere 10 months ago. It just feels like 3 yrs.

What I meant was, you're contending that Sisler was the best defensive (and possibly overall) 1B based on three years of his career. That's worse than the Koufax gang But it would explain the Lange thing

[prof93]

I am here every day, sometimes for long periods of time and sometimes only for a minute. It seems odd that some do not seem to grasp the concept that in Cobb's time baseball was a "chess match". The games often decided on the ability of the hitter to put the ball in play, the runner to steal a base, or take a extra base by challenging the defense. Durning his long career Cobb led his league in an offensive category 55 times, if you take Barry Bonds thru 2003, he has led his league in an offensive category 17 times. In Cobb's time, a great season was one in which a player scored a 100 runs, drove in 90-100 runs, stole 50+plus bases, and hit .350 or better. Cobb produced 10 such seasons. Think about it just for a moment, you have a player who will hit .350 drive in and score 90 to 100 runs, steal 50+bases. Many people would say that would make that guy the best ever to play the game, that player is Cobb!!

[four tool]

Glad I had coffee beofre I read that last post!

Bill, you overstate Cobb's BA possibilities just a bit--but the case is solid, we don't need to quibble with the details.

The short of it is Cobb had more offensive tools, Babe had pitching.

Could Ruth have adapted to Cobb's era? I think so, but no he wouldn't be regarded as one of the greats of all time if he did, no baserunning for one thing. But he could have hit doubles and triples--16 triples in 1920 isn't too shabby.

If they were both playing today, what would we have? Cobb leading the league in BA and SB and they'd start tracking baserunning not just base stealing.
Ruth leading in HR and slugging with a very good batting average. Forget his pitching.

[four tool]

Thanks Bill, another thought just popped into my head--Cobb and Ruth on the same team, and they are both the same age! Cobb gets on base, Ruth hits HR, Cobb scores.
Cobb gets on base, steals, Ruth strikes out, Cobb steals again and steals home, Cobb scores.

Would Cobb score more when Ruth made an out or when Ruth got a hit?
Cobb's so competitive I'd bet he'd steal/advance every time he could just to say, see I can score without waiting for any SOB to hit a HR behind me.

[four tool]

Good post Bill, great to see the numbers as known.

The problem with rating the negro leaguers is that we don't have enough data to compare them to the white hall of famers. We can look at the careers of Berra and Bench, for instance, and say overall, one was better than the other and this is why I think so. Can't do that with Josh Gibson. Did Josh have all the tools? Absolutely. Does he belong in the Hall? No question.
All the negro league players in the hall belong, but their contemporaries can't even agree on who was the best in some cases--Coll Papa or Oscar? Martin Dhigo or Judy Johnson? Was Mule Suttles a better HR hitter than Josh? The numbers seem to say so, so does that effecxt our rating of Gibson as a catcher?
Add in these questions:
How does his major league career compare to white of fame catchers? Park effects? Deadball vs, liveball? Did he use his tools or dissipate them a la Mantle? If we could answer these questions, then we could rate the negro league players, but right now it's impossible.

I've love to do an Oscar or Ty on the clash of the titans thread, but how can we even begin?