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Thread: Ted Williams vs. Left-handed Pitchers

  1. #61
    Matt, digglahhh I figured you two out to have more class than your showing. Talk about my frankenstein numbers and that chime in with that remark, me building my case on nothing.

    Don't know what your talking about, I presented the best numbers available that give splits on Ted and LH pitchers with complete games. Than it's pointed out that it's to be expected of LH hitters to slow down in their late 30's. So I omit those splits in Ted's late 30s and list 369 at bats up to the age of 32 and "only say" that I am a bit surprised at that .256 batting average.

    I'm not here to beg any more for your approval. I stated it was only a small sample, no where do I even hint that Ted was mediocre or below average against LH pitchers, stated that to be fair to Ted I would have to see a higher number of split stats.

    It appears you guys are a bit touchy about Ted, try to make the case that I am playing with numbers to reinforce an agenda ( your words), go back on my posts and read my words that deal with the numbers I posted, don't know what you two are talking about.

    If you want to disagree with me go ahead but your off base stating that I use skewed numbers to present a false case.

  2. #62
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    I habben't saud you intentionally skewed numbers...I've said you pesented numbers that have no real world meaning and you allowed a gaggle of other folks to run with them to unreasonable conclusions. I have no agenda here...I was wrong to say you did...you got lumped in with several others who CLEARLY do and for that I am sorry...but I will again emphasize that splits against only lefties ho had complete games are essentially meaningless for the purposes of asserting anything larger about Williams as a hitter and that I fail to understand why even if the worst claims here were true it would matter in Williams' overall appraisal as a hitter. For overall appraisals...use overall numbers...and those numberes are unimpeachably brilliant.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3
    Matt, digglahhh I figured you two out to have more class than your showing.
    I believe they do Joe. This is just a touchy subject for whatever reason. Part of it might be because it involves a favorite player, or more likely, it involves numbers that mean something to some and not to others. All you can do is present information. That alone doesn't signify bias, especially when you've been pretty evenhanded in your posts. You're always one of the more fair posters on here. So are they though. Just hit a button. No worries.
    "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

    ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by SABR Matt
    For overall appraisals...use overall numbers...and those numberes are unimpeachably brilliant.
    I tried to make that point when I posted....

    Then again, if he did that poorly against lefties and still put up the career numbers he did, then that's pretty impressive.
    Let's say that a golfer was a horrible putter but still won tournaments. Overall he was a great golfer because of the results but in examing his actual game, the putting would be a weakness. His results are still the same though, and in reality, are probably more impressive considering the weakness. That is the angle I'm approaching this from. Not attacking what he did in his career, just a specific part of his game.
    Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 01-23-2007 at 10:56 PM.
    "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

    ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

  5. #65
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    SHOLESSJOE didn't hit a button...csh is the main source of frustration mouthing off at me as though I'm the one ignoring "facts" when he's the poster using extremely limited data to support a hypothesis that's utterly indefensible (that Williams should be considered in lower regard because hit lefties a little worse than righties).

    He hasn't changed one bit. This militant anti-science position is really growing tiresome.

  6. #66
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    Fair enough Sultan...if you want to claim that Williams was a great hitter in spite of his "problems" against lefties, I don't have a problem with that aside from the fact that I don't think he had any problems hitting lefties (other than perhaps not being as prolific a power hitter)...it's probable that Williams had a platoon split...he probably hit 80-100 OPS points worse against lefties overall...that's not abnormal.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by SABR Matt
    SHOLESSJOE didn't hit a button...csh is the main source of frustration mouthing off at me as though I'm the one ignoring "facts" when he's the poster using extremely limited data to support a hypothesis that's utterly indefensible (that Williams should be considered in lower regard because hit lefties a little worse than righties).

    He hasn't changed one bit. This militant anti-science position is really growing tiresome.
    I honestly don't think you two fully understand where eachother is coming from in general. Maybe you don't care to. The sensitivity level seems to be on code-red no matter what with you guys. Oh well, that's not my business.
    "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

    ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan_1895-1948
    I'll take your word for it but can you show examples? Also could you include BA, not just OPS? Remember this is Teddy friekin' Ballgame here, not just some schlub. So the better the players the better examples obviously.
    Take a look at:
    Jim Thome
    Barry Bonds
    Larry Walker
    Jason Giambi
    Carlos Delgado
    Ken Griffey Jr.
    Jim Edmonds
    or basically any left handed hitter who ever played.

    Even Tony Gwynn has a 20 point difference in batting average and a 62 point difference in OPS.

  9. #69
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    I'm away from my PBP database for a couple more days, but Tango's book "THE BOOK: Playing the Percentages in Baseball" has a whole section on platoon splits...the average platoon split is 15-20% according to work he did using 1999-2002 data (correct me if I'm wrong on those years and percentages, Tom!) though there are types of hitters who defy that (Ichiro for example has a reverse split, which makes sense because lefty pitchers are only a disadvantage for lefty hitters if their game involves trying to get in front of the ball...Ichiro can play pepper aaaaaaalllllll day against those lefties!).

    Examples abound...

    Here's Barry Bonds:

    .304/.457/.628 vs righties (1.084)
    .290/.415/.571 vs lefties (.986)

    Here's Ken Griffey Jr:

    .297/.386/.575 (.961) RHP
    .277/.347/.520 (.867) LHP

    Carlos Delgado:

    .291/.406/.596 (1.002) RHP
    .262/.351/.465 (.816) LHP

    I could keep going if you'd like. Those are the first three "big name" lefty sluggers that popped into my head.

  10. #70
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    Here's a guy you might not expect to have a split:

    Bobby Abreu -
    .312/.426/.549 (.975) RHP
    .277/.376/.399 (.776) LHP

  11. #71
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    A couple of things on Teddy we do know.

    From 1957 on he had 350 PA against lefties. 209 PA away. 141 at home. He faced 42 left handed pitchers. He faced Billy Pierce 46 times, Bud Daley 31 times, and Dan Mossi 30 times. He got into 171 games against lefties. In 86 of those games he got one PA.

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  13. #73
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    TAngo you are right in that Ted did face significantly less lefties at home then on the road. I posted that data just above your last post. Also and i think this is important at least for the data at the end is that a big chunk of his PA against lefties was of the one PA variety. I believe in your own book PH tend not to fare as well as starters, do they not?

  14. #74
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    Ted has 141 PA at Fenway against lefties in 75 games. 41 of those games he got one PA.

    He faced Billy Pierce 12 times, Bud Daley 11 times, Dan Mossi, Herb Score, Dick Tomanek, and Chuck Stobbs 8 times. He got 30 hits and 26 walks.

    He got 209 PA against lefites in 96 away games. 45 of those were one PA games.

    He faced Billy Pierce 34 times, Dan Mossi 22 times, Bud DAley 20 times, Bobby Shantz 16 times, and Billy O'Dell 11 times. He got 40 hits and 34 walks.

    I believe his avg at home against lefties was .268 and in away games it was .234. Though he hit 8 of his 9 homers off lefties in away games, but hit 7 of his 11 doubles at home.

  15. #75
    There is a huge PH penalty.

    Here is Andy's analysis for 2005:
    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=5404

    In that year, they lost 28 points on their BA and 59 points on their SLG. In "wOBA speak", that's around a 27 point drop in performance, enough to turn an average hitter into an almost replacement-level hitter.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by SABR Matt
    For overall appraisals...use overall numbers...and those numberes are unimpeachably brilliant.
    Matt:

    We're using all of the (available) overall numbers. And they show that, in more than half of Ted's career PA's, he significantly less productive against left handed pitching than against right handers. He had an obvious weakness against left handed pitching, and we're talking about that in the context of people summarily labeling him "the greatest hitter who ever lived".

    It is clearly germane to his case.

    I'll again refer you back to Hitchedtoaspark's original post with the data, if you missed it.

  17. #77
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    I of course did NOT miss the post, csh. But thanks for assuming I can't read.

    More important to reply to is your assertion that a lefty (gasp!) not hitting lefties quite as well as righties (who'd have thought!!) could not possibly be among the three or four greatest hitters of all time. I ask you...why the heck not? If he'd never collected a single hit against a left but still got to the same career numbers he has, I would still consider him the second most talented hitter (by production rate) and the fourth greatest hitter of all time.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3
    Matt, digglahhh I figured you two out to have more class than your showing.
    Joe, I think you misunderstood.

    I've stayed out of this for the most part. But in that post, I was trying to "defend" you. Matt was saying that you were making a big case and interpreting a lot from limited data. To me, it didn't seem as if you were making bold statements so much as throwing out possible interpretations. That post was directed at Matt because I thought he was coming down on your statements as if you were stating them as gospel, which I didn't think you were.


    Now that I'm posting, I think that Ted's splits are getting a lot of scrutiny, perhaps more than they deserve (though I was somewhat surprised when I saw them too). But, at the same time Matt, I think you are losing the fact that we are talking about this only in terms of Williams holding the honor of "best hitter ever." He is on his own scale.

    I also think that these type of splits have more meaning for the all-time great lefties. With the majority of pitching being right-handed, lefties have the platoon advantage on their side in the majority of their ABs, righties are at a disadvantage. So, it would be nice if the greatest hitter of all time (as a lefty) had a less than average drop off against the platoon disadvantage. This way, you counter the argument that the lefty wasn't as good and was masking his true level of talent by feasting on the frequently enjoyed platoon advantage.

    By the way,

    Pujols (career)
    vs LHP: .331/.426/.625
    vs RHP .333/.416/.630
    THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

    In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by csh19792001
    Matt:

    We're using all of the (available) overall numbers. And they show that, in more than half of Ted's career PA's, he significantly less productive against left handed pitching than against right handers. He had an obvious weakness against left handed pitching, and we're talking about that in the context of people summarily labeling him "the greatest hitter who ever lived".

    It is clearly germane to his case.

    I'll again refer you back to Hitchedtoaspark's original post with the data, if you missed it.
    How is batting .325/.450/.550 an obvious weakness against hitting left handed pitchers?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by digglahhh
    Joe, I think you misunderstood.

    I've stayed out of this for the most part. But in that post, I was trying to "defend" you. Matt was saying that you were making a big case and interpreting a lot from limited data. To me, it didn't seem as if you were making bold statements so much as throwing out possible interpretations. That post was directed at Matt because I thought he was coming down on your statements as if you were stating them as gospel, which I didn't think you were.
    Sorry, perhaps I did misread your post.

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