View Poll Results: Hit Dog for the Hall?

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Thread: Bill Madlock

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
    Schmidt has about 100 fewer walks than Evans.
    Ba! I read Schmidt's strikeout total instead of his walk total!
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
    At that level, why walk when you've got a good chance of getting an XBH somewhere? It reminds me of the Hank Aaron bunt story. Aaron, batting against Brooklyn, noticed Jackie Robinson playing well back at third base, and dropped a perfect bunt down the line for an infield hit. The next day, Aaron ran into Robinson on the field before the game and asked him why he wasn't guarding against the drag bunt. Robinson said "Henry, any time you want to bunt, I'll give you first base".
    Exactly. Just to pick one example of a guy who is often discussed in this context, there were plenty of times where a Ted Williams walk handed the bat to a dangerous hitter who was next in line but there were plenty of other times when it handed it to someone who wouldn't be able to capitalize on the opportunity.
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Ba! I read Schmidt's strikeout total instead of his walk total!
    It happens. I only caught it because while I knew Schmidt had very good plate discipline, Evans had great plate discipline. He retired well into the top 10 all time in BB, and is still 12th. Additionally, Evans struck out less than he walked; he's only 73rd all time in K's.

    Schmidt is 18th in BB; I had to look that up. Very good, but not Howdy Doody. And he's 10th in K's.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
    At that level, why walk when you've got a good chance of getting an XBH somewhere? It reminds me of the Hank Aaron bunt story. Aaron, batting against Brooklyn, noticed Jackie Robinson playing well back at third base, and dropped a perfect bunt down the line for an infield hit. The next day, Aaron ran into Robinson on the field before the game and asked him why he wasn't guarding against the drag bunt. Robinson said "Henry, any time you want to bunt, I'll give you first base".
    That's a nice story, but it's a story, not a strategy.

    Edit: Actually, it is a strategy, but a defensive one. Robinson can play deep and stop the bunt at the same time by getting inside Henry's head. As a Dodger fan at the time, I hope Henry took him seriously. Then Robbie just plays back with no consequences. But Henry probably asked himself, "Is it a good idea for me to take batting hints in the middle of a pennant race from one of the smartest, most competitive opponents in the league?"

    Obviously if Aaron batted 1.000, all singles, he'd been a much greater offensive threat than he actually was. And since a single is worth about 1.5 BB, the defense could have made money by walking Aaron every time. But no defense ever does that, even against Bonds at his peak, for very good reasons.

    Managers' opinions about the value of a walk can be estimated by their frequency of issuing IBB. There's a great deal of variation, but nobody does it very much, and everybody does it only for a very good reason.The only debate is how good a reason do you need? For Earl Weaver, it would have to be someone holding a gun to his daughter's head.
    Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 02-13-2013 at 03:57 PM.
    Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Los Bravos View Post
    Exactly. Just to pick one example of a guy who is often discussed in this context, there were plenty of times where a Ted Williams walk handed the bat to a dangerous hitter who was next in line but there were plenty of other times when it handed it to someone who wouldn't be able to capitalize on the opportunity.
    OK, Los Bravos, we're going to have to agree to differ about this. While gaining an estimated 1/3 of a run on average is huge and covers taking a beating in the prowess of the next hitter, that's not all there is to it. It brings up one more hitter during the game, it costs the pitcher more pitches, and most importantly it keeps up the pressure to throw strikes. I don't know about Ted, but when Joe Morgan batted in situations where a walk was minimally helpful, say -23 or -2-, his value dropped like Primo Carnera.

    If Ted had gone out of the strike zone to keep the bat out the hands of Junior Stevens, he wouldn't have hit like Ted Williams (and Junior would have come up anyway, 2/3 of the time in the same situation, with one more out, or leading off, bases empty.)

    I know you're not giving hitting lessons to Ted to use after they thaw him out. I'm just saying that, as for Aaron, as for Sisler, the way Ted hit was a complex construction of interrelated components and we can't saw off or sand down pieces we don't like or glue on ones we do.
    Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    I am not a Giants fan. I am a Mets fan. This is not nearly as laughable as you advocating Bill "on par with Howard Johnson" Madlock is a HOFer.

    I enjoy your ranking threads. Calling Madlock a HOFer is like me advocating for Howard Johnson because I like the Mets and he had several 30-30 seasons. It is really laughable.
    My advocacy for Madliock for the hall was tongue in cheek, when I saw the love for a scrub like Evans

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude Paskert View Post
    Darrell was also a good to really good 3Bman when younger, although his defense didn't hold up with age as it did with Schmidt, Robinson, and Nettles. Even when Evans was basically an average 3Bman later, he was a lot better than the rotund Madlock there or the immovable object Buckner at 1B. Darrell was also capable of swinging the bat well when he was pushing 40. Evans could do a lot of things that were important to a team well, but hitting for average was generally not one of them...judging him by BA is kind of like judging Ozzie Smith on RBI (taking it to an extreme). How can Ozzie be in the HOF when he only had over 54 RBI once?!?!? Because he was much better at other important things.
    so are you saying Evans is an Ozzie level HOFer?

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    so are you saying Evans is an Ozzie level HOFer?
    No, he's not saying anything remotely like that. He is saying that a deficiency in one area is not itself a disqualifying condition.

    Not everyone around here operates in self-parody mode.
    Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Los Bravos View Post
    Exactly. Just to pick one example of a guy who is often discussed in this context, there were plenty of times where a Ted Williams walk handed the bat to a dangerous hitter who was next in line but there were plenty of other times when it handed it to someone who wouldn't be able to capitalize on the opportunity.
    Great point. CONSTANTLY overlooked by those obsessed with stats, who can't/won't look deeper than raw numbers.

    Most of the time, Ted would take the pitch a few inches off the plate, would take the walk, and would then be followed by someone with half his talent.

    Add to that, he couldn't run, so he would clog us the bases, to boot. Where'd that .486 career OBP get his team in terms of runs scored? Hank and Willie had higher career run scored per time on base percentages, despite playing much longer (in PA's), AND playing through the second deadball era of the mid-late 60's. As did Ted's archrival Joe DiMaggio!!!!

    That is DESPITE having career on base percentages 100 points lower than Teddy Ballgame!!!!

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by JR Hart View Post
    My advocacy for Madliock for the hall was tongue in cheek, when I saw the love for a scrub like Evans
    414 career HRs is a scrub? Do scrubs lead the league in homers at the age he did in 1985? I'm glad the Giants gave up on him, the Tigers may not have won the world series in 1984 without him.

    Bottom line and all things aside, Evans has gone from being a very underrated player, a Graig Nettles with a lesser glove, to getting better recognition because what he brought to the table is being recognized better. I do think the HOF calls are overstatements, but he was a hell of a player who was as productive as any post WWII third baseman not named Schmidt, Brett, Boggs and Santo.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
    414 career HRs is a scrub? Do scrubs lead the league in homers at the age he did in 1985? I'm glad the Giants gave up on him, the Tigers may not have won the world series in 1984 without him.

    Bottom line and all things aside, Evans has gone from being a very underrated player, a Graig Nettles with a lesser glove, to getting better recognition because what he brought to the table is being recognized better. I do think the HOF calls are overstatements, but he was a hell of a player who was as productive as any post WWII third baseman not named Schmidt, Brett, Boggs and Santo.
    Are you rating Eddie Mathews and Chipper Jones below all those guys?
    What's the rumpus?

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
    Are you rating Eddie Mathews and Chipper Jones below all those guys?
    When they slip my mind, yes. Otherwise, certainly not. Was a long day already at 5 a.m. or whenever I wrote that.
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
    414 career HRs is a scrub? Do scrubs lead the league in homers at the age he did in 1985? I'm glad the Giants gave up on him, the Tigers may not have won the world series in 1984 without him.

    Bottom line and all things aside, Evans has gone from being a very underrated player, a Graig Nettles with a lesser glove, to getting better recognition because what he brought to the table is being recognized better. I do think the HOF calls are overstatements, but he was a hell of a player who was as productive as any post WWII third baseman not named Schmidt, Brett, Boggs and Santo.
    Evans had a long career. I agree he was not a scrub. He had 10,737 PA's which is a lot of PA's.

    -414 HRs
    -2,223 hits
    -1,354 RBI
    -1,344 Runs
    -1,605 BB

    A solid player to be sure.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by csh19792001 View Post
    Great point. CONSTANTLY overlooked by those obsessed with stats, who can't/won't look deeper than raw numbers.

    Most of the time, Ted would take the pitch a few inches off the plate, would take the walk, and would then be followed by someone with half his talent.

    Add to that, he couldn't run, so he would clog us the bases, to boot. Where'd that .486 career OBP get his team in terms of runs scored? Hank and Willie had higher career run scored per time on base percentages, despite playing much longer (in PA's), AND playing through the second deadball era of the mid-late 60's. As did Ted's archrival Joe DiMaggio!!!!

    That is DESPITE having career on base percentages 100 points lower than Teddy Ballgame!!!!
    --Not sure I'm understanding this correctly. Scored more per times on base really wouldn't affected by the difference in OBP. If you mean to say scored more runs per plate appearance or something of that nature then that would perhaps be suggestive of OBP not equaling runs, but if I am reading your post correctly that is not what you are saying.
    --Sure Aaron and (especially) Mays were faster than Williams. And since a higher percentage of their times on base were hits rather than walks there was more chance they were in scoring position to start with so I'd expect them to score more often per times on base. But it only really devalues OBP if they scored more per plate appearance. And since Williams generally hit 3rd if the guy behind him couldn't be trusted to drive in runs that is a failure of the Red Sox front office not Williams (and isn't really true anyway as Teddy usually had a pretty darn good hitter following him).

  15. #135
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    I recently had an argument with a friend of mine of the percentage of cuban, venezuelan or dominican players that "starred" in MLB through out history. My bar was set with PAs in mind. Anyplayer that could amass "X" amount of PAs obviously was better than average at something that warrants given the opportunity.

    I bring this up, because PAs obviously weight on a players overall value, WAR or not. Look at the following players, they´re not HOF worthy, but at least you can make a case for each one:

    Omar Vizquel (Best deffensive SS since Ozzie)
    Rusty Staub (One of the most consistent hitters in the low scoring enviroment of the 60s and the 70s)
    Harold Baines (The exception, since DH helped him)
    Gary Sheffield (One of the best right handed hitters of the past 25 years)
    Johnny Damon (Leadoff man for some iconic teams)
    Darrell Evans (Test case. Solid third baseman)
    Dwight Evans (Best right field of the 80s)
    Luis Gonzalez (Solid left fielder who had the winning hit in 2001 WS)
    Steve Finley (Complete center fielder)
    Bill Dahlen (One of the most glaring omissions for the HOF)

    And that´s the list. Save for Gonzalez, Baines and Finley, all of them have solid HOF credentials.
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  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by yankillaz View Post
    I recently had an argument with a friend of mine of the percentage of cuban, venezuelan or dominican players that "starred" in MLB through out history. My bar was set with PAs in mind. Anyplayer that could amass "X" amount of PAs obviously was better than average at something that warrants given the opportunity.

    I bring this up, because PAs obviously weight on a players overall value, WAR or not. Look at the following players, they´re not HOF worthy, but at least you can make a case for each one:

    Omar Vizquel (Best deffensive SS since Ozzie)
    Rusty Staub (One of the most consistent hitters in the low scoring enviroment of the 60s and the 70s)
    Harold Baines (The exception, since DH helped him)
    Gary Sheffield (One of the best right handed hitters of the past 25 years)
    Johnny Damon (Leadoff man for some iconic teams)
    Darrell Evans (Test case. Solid third baseman)
    Dwight Evans (Best right field of the 80s)
    Luis Gonzalez (Solid left fielder who had the winning hit in 2001 WS)
    Steve Finley (Complete center fielder)
    Bill Dahlen (One of the most glaring omissions for the HOF)

    And that´s the list. Save for Gonzalez, Baines and Finley, all of them have solid HOF credentials.
    Excellent point. A huge number of PA are a good indicator of overall quality, though the inverse is not necessarily true.

    Same for IP, or starts, or quality starts. perhaps more so, since the bar is higher. There's more working against a pitcher setting foot on the rubber.
    Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
    I'm glad the Giants gave up on him, the Tigers may not have won the world series in 1984 without him.
    I was happy to get him out of the NL West and I really enjoyed seeing him play a role in dismissing that vile '84 Padres team from the Series that October.
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  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude Paskert View Post
    Darrell was also a good to really good 3Bman when younger, although his defense didn't hold up with age as it did with Schmidt, Robinson, and Nettles. Even when Evans was basically an average 3Bman later, he was a lot better than the rotund Madlock there or the immovable object Buckner at 1B. Darrell was also capable of swinging the bat well when he was pushing 40. Evans could do a lot of things that were important to a team well, but hitting for average was generally not one of them...judging him by BA is kind of like judging Ozzie Smith on RBI (taking it to an extreme). How can Ozzie be in the HOF when he only had over 54 RBI once?!?!? Because he was much better at other important things.
    Ozzie Smith had 75 RBIs in '87 without a single HR!

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  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Los Bravos View Post
    I was happy to get him out of the NL West and I really enjoyed seeing him play a role in dismissing that vile '84 Padres team from the Series that October.
    Not much is said about how the clubhouse and locker room were on that team. The most that's said is one player was invited to attend a meeting and brought binoculars, thinking he was going to the John Bird Society meeting.

    Madlock and Evans, of course, were teammates on the 1987 Tigers team that won the division then conked out in the playoffs. Lots of stories came out about how much of a fiery leader Madlock was in his short time with the team. I wish the guy had more of a career.
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  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
    Not much is said about how the clubhouse and locker room were on that team. The most that's said is one player was invited to attend a meeting and brought binoculars, thinking he was going to the John Bird Society meeting.

    Madlock and Evans, of course, were teammates on the 1987 Tigers team that won the division then conked out in the playoffs. Lots of stories came out about how much of a fiery leader Madlock was in his short time with the team. I wish the guy had more of a career.
    Interesting how a "troublemaker" becomes a "firebrand" when things start going well. Reading James on Madlock, I got an impression of a one-note, self-obsessed dullard. Reading this thread has really changed my sense of him

    I wonder if lousy fielders attract character judgments. No one considers Mark Bellanger undermotivated for not developing as a hitter, but Horner, Madlock, Dick Stuart are presented as flawed personalities as well. Maybe they are. The paradigm is Dave Kingman, who apparently was.
    Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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