Bill Madlock

[JR Hart]

I am not a Giants fan. I am a Mets fan. This is not nearly as laughable as you advocating Bill "on par with Howard Johnson" Madlock is a HOFer.

I enjoy your ranking threads. Calling Madlock a HOFer is like me advocating for Howard Johnson because I like the Mets and he had several 30-30 seasons. It is really laughable.

My advocacy for Madliock for the hall was tongue in cheek, when I saw the love for a scrub like Evans

[JR Hart]

Darrell was also a good to really good 3Bman when younger, although his defense didn't hold up with age as it did with Schmidt, Robinson, and Nettles. Even when Evans was basically an average 3Bman later, he was a lot better than the rotund Madlock there or the immovable object Buckner at 1B. Darrell was also capable of swinging the bat well when he was pushing 40. Evans could do a lot of things that were important to a team well, but hitting for average was generally not one of them...judging him by BA is kind of like judging Ozzie Smith on RBI (taking it to an extreme). How can Ozzie be in the HOF when he only had over 54 RBI once?!?!? Because he was much better at other important things.

so are you saying Evans is an Ozzie level HOFer?

[Jackaroo Dave]

so are you saying Evans is an Ozzie level HOFer?

No, he's not saying anything remotely like that. He is saying that a deficiency in one area is not itself a disqualifying condition.

Not everyone around here operates in self-parody mode.

[csh19792001]

Exactly. Just to pick one example of a guy who is often discussed in this context, there were plenty of times where a Ted Williams walk handed the bat to a dangerous hitter who was next in line but there were plenty of other times when it handed it to someone who wouldn't be able to capitalize on the opportunity.

Great point. CONSTANTLY overlooked by those obsessed with stats, who can't/won't look deeper than raw numbers.

Most of the time, Ted would take the pitch a few inches off the plate, would take the walk, and would then be followed by someone with half his talent.

Add to that, he couldn't run, so he would clog us the bases, to boot. Where'd that .486 career OBP get his team in terms of runs scored? Hank and Willie had higher career run scored per time on base percentages, despite playing much longer (in PA's), AND playing through the second deadball era of the mid-late 60's. As did Ted's archrival Joe DiMaggio!!!!

That is DESPITE having career on base percentages 100 points lower than Teddy Ballgame!!!!

[Captain Cold Nose]

My advocacy for Madliock for the hall was tongue in cheek, when I saw the love for a scrub like Evans

414 career HRs is a scrub? Do scrubs lead the league in homers at the age he did in 1985? I'm glad the Giants gave up on him, the Tigers may not have won the world series in 1984 without him.

Bottom line and all things aside, Evans has gone from being a very underrated player, a Graig Nettles with a lesser glove, to getting better recognition because what he brought to the table is being recognized better. I do think the HOF calls are overstatements, but he was a hell of a player who was as productive as any post WWII third baseman not named Schmidt, Brett, Boggs and Santo.

[ol' aches and pains]

414 career HRs is a scrub? Do scrubs lead the league in homers at the age he did in 1985? I'm glad the Giants gave up on him, the Tigers may not have won the world series in 1984 without him.

Bottom line and all things aside, Evans has gone from being a very underrated player, a Graig Nettles with a lesser glove, to getting better recognition because what he brought to the table is being recognized better. I do think the HOF calls are overstatements, but he was a hell of a player who was as productive as any post WWII third baseman not named Schmidt, Brett, Boggs and Santo.

Are you rating Eddie Mathews and Chipper Jones below all those guys?

[Captain Cold Nose]

Are you rating Eddie Mathews and Chipper Jones below all those guys?

When they slip my mind, yes. Otherwise, certainly not. Was a long day already at 5 a.m. or whenever I wrote that.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

414 career HRs is a scrub? Do scrubs lead the league in homers at the age he did in 1985? I'm glad the Giants gave up on him, the Tigers may not have won the world series in 1984 without him.

Bottom line and all things aside, Evans has gone from being a very underrated player, a Graig Nettles with a lesser glove, to getting better recognition because what he brought to the table is being recognized better. I do think the HOF calls are overstatements, but he was a hell of a player who was as productive as any post WWII third baseman not named Schmidt, Brett, Boggs and Santo.

Evans had a long career. I agree he was not a scrub. He had 10,737 PA's which is a lot of PA's.

-414 HRs
-2,223 hits
-1,354 RBI
-1,344 Runs
-1,605 BB

A solid player to be sure.

[leecemark]

Great point. CONSTANTLY overlooked by those obsessed with stats, who can't/won't look deeper than raw numbers.

Most of the time, Ted would take the pitch a few inches off the plate, would take the walk, and would then be followed by someone with half his talent.

Add to that, he couldn't run, so he would clog us the bases, to boot. Where'd that .486 career OBP get his team in terms of runs scored? Hank and Willie had higher career run scored per time on base percentages, despite playing much longer (in PA's), AND playing through the second deadball era of the mid-late 60's. As did Ted's archrival Joe DiMaggio!!!!

That is DESPITE having career on base percentages 100 points lower than Teddy Ballgame!!!!

--Not sure I'm understanding this correctly. Scored more per times on base really wouldn't affected by the difference in OBP. If you mean to say scored more runs per plate appearance or something of that nature then that would perhaps be suggestive of OBP not equaling runs, but if I am reading your post correctly that is not what you are saying.
--Sure Aaron and (especially) Mays were faster than Williams. And since a higher percentage of their times on base were hits rather than walks there was more chance they were in scoring position to start with so I'd expect them to score more often per times on base. But it only really devalues OBP if they scored more per plate appearance. And since Williams generally hit 3rd if the guy behind him couldn't be trusted to drive in runs that is a failure of the Red Sox front office not Williams (and isn't really true anyway as Teddy usually had a pretty darn good hitter following him).

[yankillaz]

I recently had an argument with a friend of mine of the percentage of cuban, venezuelan or dominican players that "starred" in MLB through out history. My bar was set with PAs in mind. Anyplayer that could amass "X" amount of PAs obviously was better than average at something that warrants given the opportunity.

I bring this up, because PAs obviously weight on a players overall value, WAR or not. Look at the following players, they´re not HOF worthy, but at least you can make a case for each one:

Omar Vizquel (Best deffensive SS since Ozzie)
Rusty Staub (One of the most consistent hitters in the low scoring enviroment of the 60s and the 70s)
Harold Baines (The exception, since DH helped him)
Gary Sheffield (One of the best right handed hitters of the past 25 years)
Johnny Damon (Leadoff man for some iconic teams)
Darrell Evans (Test case. Solid third baseman)
Dwight Evans (Best right field of the 80s)
Luis Gonzalez (Solid left fielder who had the winning hit in 2001 WS)
Steve Finley (Complete center fielder)
Bill Dahlen (One of the most glaring omissions for the HOF)

And that´s the list. Save for Gonzalez, Baines and Finley, all of them have solid HOF credentials.

[Jackaroo Dave]

I recently had an argument with a friend of mine of the percentage of cuban, venezuelan or dominican players that "starred" in MLB through out history. My bar was set with PAs in mind. Anyplayer that could amass "X" amount of PAs obviously was better than average at something that warrants given the opportunity.

I bring this up, because PAs obviously weight on a players overall value, WAR or not. Look at the following players, they´re not HOF worthy, but at least you can make a case for each one:

Omar Vizquel (Best deffensive SS since Ozzie)
Rusty Staub (One of the most consistent hitters in the low scoring enviroment of the 60s and the 70s)
Harold Baines (The exception, since DH helped him)
Gary Sheffield (One of the best right handed hitters of the past 25 years)
Johnny Damon (Leadoff man for some iconic teams)
Darrell Evans (Test case. Solid third baseman)
Dwight Evans (Best right field of the 80s)
Luis Gonzalez (Solid left fielder who had the winning hit in 2001 WS)
Steve Finley (Complete center fielder)
Bill Dahlen (One of the most glaring omissions for the HOF)

And that´s the list. Save for Gonzalez, Baines and Finley, all of them have solid HOF credentials.

Excellent point. A huge number of PA are a good indicator of overall quality, though the inverse is not necessarily true.

Same for IP, or starts, or quality starts. perhaps more so, since the bar is higher. There's more working against a pitcher setting foot on the rubber.

[Los Bravos]

I'm glad the Giants gave up on him, the Tigers may not have won the world series in 1984 without him.

I was happy to get him out of the NL West and I really enjoyed seeing him play a role in dismissing that vile '84 Padres team from the Series that October.

[Steven Gallanter]

Darrell was also a good to really good 3Bman when younger, although his defense didn't hold up with age as it did with Schmidt, Robinson, and Nettles. Even when Evans was basically an average 3Bman later, he was a lot better than the rotund Madlock there or the immovable object Buckner at 1B. Darrell was also capable of swinging the bat well when he was pushing 40. Evans could do a lot of things that were important to a team well, but hitting for average was generally not one of them...judging him by BA is kind of like judging Ozzie Smith on RBI (taking it to an extreme). How can Ozzie be in the HOF when he only had over 54 RBI once?!?!? Because he was much better at other important things.

Ozzie Smith had 75 RBIs in '87 without a single HR!

http://stevegallanter.wordpress.com

[Captain Cold Nose]

I was happy to get him out of the NL West and I really enjoyed seeing him play a role in dismissing that vile '84 Padres team from the Series that October.

Not much is said about how the clubhouse and locker room were on that team. The most that's said is one player was invited to attend a meeting and brought binoculars, thinking he was going to the John Bird Society meeting.

Madlock and Evans, of course, were teammates on the 1987 Tigers team that won the division then conked out in the playoffs. Lots of stories came out about how much of a fiery leader Madlock was in his short time with the team. I wish the guy had more of a career.

[Jackaroo Dave]

Not much is said about how the clubhouse and locker room were on that team. The most that's said is one player was invited to attend a meeting and brought binoculars, thinking he was going to the John Bird Society meeting.

Madlock and Evans, of course, were teammates on the 1987 Tigers team that won the division then conked out in the playoffs. Lots of stories came out about how much of a fiery leader Madlock was in his short time with the team. I wish the guy had more of a career.

Interesting how a "troublemaker" becomes a "firebrand" when things start going well. Reading James on Madlock, I got an impression of a one-note, self-obsessed dullard. Reading this thread has really changed my sense of him

I wonder if lousy fielders attract character judgments. No one considers Mark Bellanger undermotivated for not developing as a hitter, but Horner, Madlock, Dick Stuart are presented as flawed personalities as well. Maybe they are. The paradigm is Dave Kingman, who apparently was.

[Los Bravos]

Interesting how a "troublemaker" becomes a "firebrand" when things start going well.

So very true.

[Cowtipper]

Schmidt has about 100 fewer walks than Evans.

Which is rather negligible considering the length of their careers. Schmidt's home run/extra base hit production surely offset the handful of runs lost by him not reaching base 100 more times via walk. Evans had more walks yet his OBP was still lower.

[Cougar]

Which is rather negligible considering the length of their careers. Schmidt's home run/extra base hit production surely offset the handful of runs lost by him not reaching base 100 more times via walk. Evans had more walks yet his OBP was still lower.

I concur; I was merely correcting an error, and intended no implication that Schmidt was inferior to Evans overall.

[TomBodet]

Mad dog was a part of that We are Family champ team in '79, all i remember @ him then in press was how great a hitter he was for Pitt. He killed the O's and clobbered Stl in the '85 playoffs for LA. The man could flat out hit.

[csh19792001]

Well, I did write "the basis of a good insight", so...

All I mean is that there is a tendency among some people here to take the basic point (which I think everybody can endorse) that drawing walks and getting on base is a valuable thing in and of itself and project those values into the past.

In doing so, they ignore a basic fact that is illustrated by that same Snider anecdote (which is in The Boys of Summer) and all of the contemporary criticism of Ted Williams: drawing walks was, until relatively recently, seen not only as something that held less value than we now know that it does, it was actively disdained, especially for a guy with power. Seen as more of an abdication of responsibility than anything else.

Wow....sir...thank you SO MUCH for citing/quoting this explicitly!! I wish I could pin it for eternity, especially when the SABR-stat "Myopians" set out to destroy/malign players like George Sisler. And they are clueless in doing so.

People, you know, who don't read about baseball players/baseball history.....and also haven't watched baseball for decades, but can use Google quite adroitly, and then come here and bark at us imperiously from behind their spreadsheets....

[JR Hart]

Madlock went .305/.365/.442 over 2000 hits His postseason line is .308/.375/.523 (72 PA) He has 4 batting titles, an AS Game MVP and was a huge contributor for a world championship team. I'd say, while he is short of being a HOFer, that he had a very distinguished career.

[TomBodet]

I will say I agree with the Noted_Sages csh, Mr Bravos and Luke Appling here. Walks are cool. Evans was cool. But George Sisler didn't suck because he wasn't Lu Blue.

[1905 Giants]

Madlock went .305/.365/.442 over 2000 hits His postseason line is .308/.375/.523 (72 PA) He has 4 batting titles, an AS Game MVP and was a huge contributor for a world championship team. I'd say, while he is short of being a HOFer, that he had a very distinguished career.

Agreed JR.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Madlock did a signing in the Detroit area a few years ago, and he was trying to engage the waiting folks in conversation about the pennant race. No one bit, and I was too far back in line to respond to him. By the time I got up there, he kind of had given up. Too bad. Too many players don't try to talk to the folks getting their autographs at events like these save a few pleasantries, so he ceratinly didn't seem like the grouch he was perceived as a player in person.

[Dude Paskert]

Wow....sir...thank you SO MUCH for citing/quoting this explicitly!! I wish I could pin it for eternity, especially when the SABR-stat "Myopians" set out to destroy/malign players like George Sisler. And they are clueless in doing so.

People, you know, who don't read about baseball players/baseball history.....and also haven't watched baseball for decades, but can use Google quite adroitly, and then come here and bark at us imperiously from behind their spreadsheets....

Do you actually play baseball??

One interesting thing about Mad Dog that he actually cut his GIDP frequency considerably as he got older, which is unusual because I'm sure he wasn't getting faster. Seems like he might have changed his batting approach with a man on first around '78, when he dropped from a league-leading 25 GIDP the previous season to only 6....the rate stayed pretty reasonable for the rest of his career.