Originally posted by JR Hart
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Bill Madlock
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Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View PostSure. But only because others are legitimately writing him off and it gives you a chance to rally against things that you keep saying people here are pushing but actually aren't.
In fairness to JR, this beats the Garvey for HOF campaign. I'd like to see an Eddie Stanky-Bill Madlock thread, though.Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce
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Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View PostConsider the avatar. Jim Ray's fans must have been thrilled when Madlock showed up.
In fairness to JR, this beats the Garvey for HOF campaign. I'd like to see an Eddie Stanky-Bill Madlock thread, though.Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
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Fuzzy-
Nice work. I like your posting style- fair, and even handed. You're doing the history justice by trying to present all sides of the story.
However, regarding the batting titles/missing games position, someone levied the claim awhile back that:
Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View PostTo answer your question: Madlock is the only four time batting champion not in the HOF. There are some things that need to be pointed out about this, however:
2. Madlock was obsessed with winning the batting title and had a reputation for faking injuries and not playing to maintain his batting title lead
I looked in depth at 1975, the year Madlock won his first batting title. I used Proquest to access the wrapups/boxscores to examine why he missed games, and then correlated that with the game logs at retrosheet to see when he missed time, the ebb and flow of his average and that of his competitors, and who was pitching when he missed games. I queried 7 of the largest national newspapers and also APS Online (which houses thousands of periodicals). It's very easy to unyieldingly follow Bill James and make blanket statements as you did. In point of fact, though, Madlock was a victim of several injuries/incidents which conspired to cause him to miss lots of games.
Madlock severely sprained his ankle on May 5, 1974- the Chicago Tribune has a picture of the incident- and his foot is sideways upon impact at 1st base. This is germane because it never healed properly, gave him chronic pain, and was probably just one of the factors that caused him to miss so many games and forced him into early retirement.
Madlock tore his hip flexor in late June, 1975. The doctor who examined him listed his condition as "dubious at best". The Tribune on July 4th, 1975 noted that Madlock, hitting .351, vetoed the idea of sitting out the rest of the year injured and taking his chances on a batting title.
He fractured his thumb on Sept 11th, 1975 on a high and tight fastball from Bruce Kison of the Pirates. He was already serving a three day suspension due to a run in with umpire Jerry Dale. Another bunch of games missed due to injury.
Madlock had a pinch hit trial at bat on the 21st, and jumped back into the lineup on the 24th to face Tom Seaver, who pitched 10 shutout innings of 3 hit ball (Seaver's no hit bid was foiled in the 9th inning and made headlines in every newspaper in the country). Had Madlock been malingering or obsessed with the batting title, wouldn't he have sat out against the greatest pitcher in baseball (especially with a healing fracture)?
1976:
In September of 1976, Madlock had a cyst removed from his right knee, before departing to attend the funeral of his grandfather who had apparently raised him. And there isn't evidence that his absence was indicative of purposeful absenteeism; while he was out, the Pirates faced lousy, nondescript pitchers for San Diego and Montreal.
Madlock missed a series of games in late September of 1976- he was mugged and hospitalized on Sept. 24th, and suffered a concussion on the back of his skull outside a NYC hotel. I attached the account of the incident as detailed by both The Tribune and The New York Times. He was admitted to Northwestern Memorial Hospital after the attack.
And in case you consider that he might have extended his time on the DL to win the batting title, consider that Madlock was trailing Ken Griffey Sr. at the time of the incident.
In fact, on the last day of the season, with he and Griffey in a virtual deadlock, Griffey decided to sit out and try to preserve the lead, and Madlock played, going 4-4 to capture the title.
The Chicago Tribune related the entire saga:
"In the sixth off Dale Murray, Madlock pulled his fourth single over the head of Garrett. Word by now had reached Chicago that Griffey hadn't played, but the fourth hit by Madlock lifted his average to .3385 and Griffey was at .3375 so Ken had to get off the bench""Griffey, attempting to back into the title, was withheld from the lineup in Cincinnati. Then he fanned as a pinch hitter in a vain attempt to catch Madlock" (this was Griffey's final AB of the season)
It's infinitely easier and less cognitively taxing to endlessly reproduce the ideas of moguls like Bill James and presume them to be true, to go on reputation, or to base conclusions of off naked numbers ex post facto....but these quick and dirty routes often lead to erroneous conclusions. This is simply one discrete case where (at least in the batting title seasons I had the time to research) the facts belie the commonly held misperception, which has seemingly been propagated and blown out of proportion over time.Last edited by csh19792001; 02-08-2013, 09:37 AM.
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Originally posted by leecemark View Post--That was some nice research Chris and the reasons why Madlock missed so much playing may well be less sinister than is often assumed. The fact does remain that Madlock could be counted on to miss games with alarming frequency. Thus both his seasonal and career counting stats are far less impressive than is rate stats. That said, he would certainly be a Hall of Famer if he had played in the 1920s or 30s. Unfortunately for him he played at a time when the depth of talent at 3B was probably higher than at any other time in history. He wasn't as good (or at least didn't accomplish as much) as the 3 contemporaries who are in Cooperstown and at least that mnay who aren't.
One negative rep Madlock had was the rep for being obsessed with the batting title, to the point where he'd fake injuries to maintain a batting title. Another negative rep had was for being injured due to poor conditioning. These reputations may well not be accurate; there's been some solid debunking of a good deal of the batting title myths, and I'm willing to believe that a good part of the negative image of Madlock is overblown, but the reputations were real, and they stuck. Madlock was a guy who won batting titles, and who was an All-Star who played on a World Championship team. How is is that he became so lowly regarded after winning 4 batting titles? How is it that bad reputations, some of which appear in hindsight to be unfair to Madlock, manage to stick?"I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."
NL President Ford Frick, 1947
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Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View PostHow is it that bad reputations, some of which appear in hindsight to be unfair to Madlock, manage to stick?
It sounded like a lot of people didn't like him, partly from his habit of punching out pitchers who threw at him. A guy whose own teammates goad a pitcher into hitting him, knowing his reaction, doesn't sound like someone who will get glowing references in others' interviews.
Otherwise, he seems abrasive, but no worse than a lot of others who don't have the rep.
So there's not a lot of motivation for a reporter or Bill James to do the work to check up on casual allegations and rumors to set the record straight. "If he wasn't malingering, he probably did something worse that he didn't get caught for."
Thanks, csh, for your fine research.Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce
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Yeah that was great csh, impressed. Maddog was a surly guy who got into trouble enough so that the press was never going to allow him to escape that image no matter what. Consider Dick Allen and James take on him vs Craig Wright. Perceptions and proquest, a good mix.
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Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View PostHow is it that bad reputations, some of which appear in hindsight to be unfair to Madlock, manage to stick?
Good to see you here again (on this same thread) after all these years.
Madlock's rep may be very much true, and what others here suppose about him quite valid. My little project from years ago is certainly is far, FAR from exhaustive, or mutually inclusive. I haven't read Madlock's biography (if one exists).
Chipper Jones had the rep of sitting out games with "injuries" or malingering, generally, to improve his stats. Especially against the toughest pitching.
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Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View PostDid you read the post of a few years back that provided a litany of Madlock's crimes against humanity?
Thanks, csh, for your fine research.Originally posted by TomBodet View PostYeah that was great csh, impressed. Maddog was a surly guy who got into trouble enough so that the press was never going to allow him to escape that image no matter what. Consider Dick Allen and James take on him vs Craig Wright. Perceptions and proquest, a good mix.
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Sometimes, in reading James or whomever, you bet the impression that to them batting crowns are either irrelevant or a bad thing. Winning 4 of them, no matter when or where, to me, is a big deal. Madlock merits a better rep As a Player than he has.
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Originally posted by TomBodet View PostSometimes, in reading James or whomever, you bet the impression that to them batting crowns are either irrelevant or a bad thing. Winning 4 of them, no matter when or where, to me, is a big deal. Madlock merits a better rep As a Player than he has.
The winner one year may have nowhere near as good a BA year as the third runner up the next year.
So if as some writers believe, players duck difficult pitchers or otherwise let their teams down in order to win batting titles, it would have not just a distorting but harmful influence on the game. Then you have the Lajoie Cobb stink, and some others. I don't believe thay actually amount to much in the long run. But "He won 4 batting crowns" isn't as important as, say, leading the league in BA over that period, which Madlock did by 10 points, .317 to .307 over Dave Parker. Hitting .317 from 1975 to 1983 is really something.Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce
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Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View PostConsider the avatar. Jim Ray's fans must have been thrilled when Madlock showed up.
In fairness to JR, this beats the Garvey for HOF campaign. I'd like to see an Eddie Stanky-Bill Madlock thread, though.
Hall of Fame
1993 BBWAA (41.6%)
1994 BBWAA (36.4%)
1995 BBWAA (42.6%)
1996 BBWAA (37.2%)
1997 BBWAA (35.3%)
1998 BBWAA (41.2%)
1999 BBWAA (30.2%)
2000 BBWAA (32.1%)
2001 BBWAA (34.2%)
2002 BBWAA (28.4%)
2003 BBWAA (27.8%)
2004 BBWAA (24.3%)
2005 BBWAA (20.5%)
2006 BBWAA (26.0%)
2007 BBWAA (21.1%)This week's Giant
#5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry
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Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View PostIt was said earlier, with better power, better glove, better durability, he'd have a great case. But he didn't hit with much power, he didn't have a long career and his glove wasn't good. If JR's case is based upon his own distaste for how well Darrell Evans (who no one here actually endorses as a HOFer) is regarded here, Evans has some big advantages over Madlock once the impressive four batting titles is brought up. That does put Madlock in the argument based on what the HOF has actually done via elected players. He's well in place with some fine third basemen who are short of the mark, to me.
Darrell Evans is absolutely a HOFer.
Third base is a TERRIBLY weak position historically. Not many great players play there for long. Evans was one of the best who qualified at third.
yankillaz
hope that future advanced stats make of this man a HOF candidate at least by VC.
Dude paskert
I think Evans has a good case to get in the HOF but not an overpowering one,
chicagowhitesox117
don't think Evans is in the same grade as Byleven but he does have a pretty good case.This week's Giant
#5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry
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Ok, one real endorsement by a current regular poster and two who says he deserves a closer look (hyperbolize that if you like). What are you looking at besides batting average to disqualify him so readily? There is a reason why he was the most sought-after free agent after the 1983 season. Plenty of teams saw what the Giants were missing-a good glove and good power guy who could help a team win, which he actually did. Not the whole site, which you seem to love to call out regardless of your sweeping perceptions not even close to being true. But what's the harm in living your own lie?
I'd say the two are about even, with both deservedly on the outside. Which, to you, probably, means a vote for Evans only.Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
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