Giants move was quiet

[tonypug]

Compared to the Brooklyn Dodgers move to LA which was in the newspapers every day, there was very little written about the Giants move to SF. O'Malley was always being quoted, nothing much was ever said about Stoneham. Was it that nobody believed Stoneham would move, or that none of the City fathers cared if they did. I remember stories about Stoneham begging to come to meetings with the city fathers and O'Malley, but he was never invited. How come?

[Mays1951]

Stoneham in his latter years regretted moving the Giants out of New York. I read this in a book.

[tonypug]

We have had several debates, about this. Horace Stoneham was easily manipulated. O'Malley played him like a master puppeteer. He even took Stoneham to Candlestick Point on one of the few days it wasn't windy. Horace second guessed himself on many occasions, about making the move.

[donzblock]

He should have second guessed himself one day at a time.

[tonypug]

That could have been the New York Giants playing at Shea these last 42 years.

[DODGER DEB]

........and, as a result, there is a good chance WE would still have OUR BROOKLYN DODGERS in BROOKLYN......where they belong!!!

c.

OUR MOMENT IN TIME - OCTOBER 4, 1955 - 3:43PM

[westsidegrounds]

Very different situations.

Brooklyn fans had been turning up in excellent numbers throughout the '50s, providing solid revenues for a team that most regarded as the standardbearer of their borough's identity. Then some tinhorn shyster backstabs his way into control and sells out the loyal fans for a few lousy extra bucks. No wonder they were peeved, and still are.

On the other hand, the Giants had been in the Stoneham family for many years. The '50s featured some of the most exciting pennant races even in that team's glorious history. Plus they had the most exciting and charismatic player in the game's history playing center field every day. But attendance figures were shamefully low. NYG fans today don't blame Horace for the move - he did what he had to do, fan attendance was his only source of income. If anyone's to blame, it's the people who only had to take a ten-minute subway ride to watch the greatest team in baseball, and didn't, because "oooo - that's a Bad Neighborhood!" They stole my team - not Horace.

[donzblock]

Would you have followed the Giants to Queens?

[westsidegrounds]

Originally posted by donzblock
Would you have followed the Giants to Queens?

No.

Might as well play in SF or Minneapolis as in Queens.

[donzblock]

I feel the same way about the Bums in Queens.

[tonypug]

We say that now as adults, but I have a feeling a lot of us would have followed our team to Queens, Giants or Dodger fans.

[tonypug]

I understand attendence was going down, the last three years were,824,000.629.000 and 653,000. People said they wouldn't go because of the area, how come the Mets drew 922,000 and 1,080,000 their two years in the Polo Grounds? I found it strange when the Giants moved to SF they had a bunch of good young players Orlando Cepeda, Jim Davenport, Willie McCovey ready to play. Why not bring some of them up early to New York, it might have helped attendence and created more interest.

[Greenpeach]

Originally posted by tonypug
I understand attendence was going down, the last three years were,824,000.629.000 and 653,000. People said they wouldn't go because of the area, how come the Mets drew 922,000 and 1,080,000 their two years in the Polo Grounds? I found it strange when the Giants moved to SF they had a bunch of good young players Orlando Cepeda, Jim Davenport, Willie McCovey ready to play. Why not bring some of them up early to New York, it might have helped attendence and created more interest.

Tony, I've stated in previous threads that if the Giants had stayed in New York they would've owned Gotham in the 1960's. Playing in a brand new Shea Stadium with such young stars as Mays, McCovey, Marichal, Cepeda & later Gaylord Perry, I have no doubt that they would've broken many attendance records.

I think Stoneham was thinking along the same lines when he publicly acknowledged in 1976 (Right after selling the Giants.) that the biggest mistake he ever made was moving the Giants to San Francisco.

[tonypug]

Maybe, if Stoneham made more noise, like O'Malley, a lot of things would have turned out differently, and New York City would still have three baseball teams.

[DODGER DEB]

Originally posted by tonypug
Maybe, if Stoneham made more noise, like O'Malley, a lot of things would have turned out differently, and New York City would still have three baseball teams.

Looking back at it now, WE should have been the ones MAKING THE NOISE about keeping the Giants here. If WE had been thinking orange/black, instead of being blinded by royal blue, maybe, just maybe, WE would have had OUR ROYAL BLUE FOREVER!!!

I know WE are joking about this now, but ya know, if you really think about it, IT just might have worked!!!

c.



OUR MOMENT IN TIME - OCTOBER 4, 1955 - 3:43PM

[donzblock]

If the major league owners would not have approved a solo move to the coast, then persuading the Giants to stay would have worked.

[DODGER DEB]

Originally posted by donzblock
If the major league owners would not have approved a solo move to the coast, then persuading the Giants to stay would have worked.

From everything I know and read about THAT move, it was obvious that MLB would NOT have approved any move without TWO clubs going to CA. IT would have been too costly for them to travel, several times a season, for just one stop over.

No, Professor, I think WE had this in the palm of OUR hand....and WE BLEW IT!

c.

OUR MOMENT IN TIME - OCTOBER 4, 1955 - 3:43PM

[tonypug]

O'malley really took advantage of Stonehams personality. The city of New York never thought Stoneham would be a problem, they very rarely invited him to meetings, O'Malley went to every one. It wasn't until after the double move was announced that Stoneham was given any consideration. Even then the feeling was take care of O'Malley and everything will fall into place. The two leagues were independent then, all O'Malley and Stoneham needed were the National league owners votes, and they seemed more then happy to get out of New York for some reason. I have never figured out why they would allow the National League to be without a New York team.

[DODGER DEB]

Originally posted by tonypug
O'malley really took advantage of Stonehams personality. The city of New York never thought Stoneham would be a problem, they very rarely invited him to meetings, O'Malley went to every one. It wasn't until after the double move was announced that Stoneham was given any consideration. Even then the feeling was take care of O'Malley and everything will fall into place. The two leagues were independent then, all O'Malley and Stoneham needed were the National league owners votes, and they seemed more then happy to get out of New York for some reason. I have never figured out why they would allow the National League to be without a New York team.

YOU make the point exactly...."Even then the feeling was take care of O'Malley and everything will fall into place". The reason NYC was thinking THAT way was because they knew that the "Big O" not only controlled Stoneham,but knew how badly he needed $$$$$, so there was no need for them (NYC) to pay attention to him or even invite him to any meetings.

BUT, suppose people like US, and there were thousands who could have been organized, rallied to Stoneham's side to "present" his story, separating him from the "Big O". There is no doubt in my mind HE would have been VERY receptive to Moses' offer of Flushing Meadows, and why not, it could have turned into a gold mine for him, compared to what he was pulling in at the Polo Grounds. Moses would have switched gears so quick he would have had our heads spinning.....and that would have left the "Big O" with no where to go.........but to stay in BROOKLYN and build a new ballpark.

The thought of THIS scenario, which really could have worked, is making me crazy, the more I think about it! At the very least, it would have bought US TIME.....and with TIME on OUR side, it all could have worked out for keeping OUR DODGERS in BROOKLYN!

c.

OUR MOMENT IN TIME - OCTOBER 4, 1955 - 3:43PM

[westsidegrounds]

Originally posted by tonypug
O'malley really took advantage of Stonehams personality. <...> It wasn't until after the double move was announced that Stoneham was given any consideration. <...>.

Not at all.

Stoneham had a proposal ready for a new ballpark on the west side, by the river, on the site of a little-used railyard. City Hall wasn't interested.

Then along comes the Big O with his plan to move all the way out west. He NEEDED Stoneham - but Stoneham didn't need him.

Because Stoneham was already planning a move to Minneapolis, home of the Giants' top farm team the Millers. The Giants would have done just fine there.

So yeah, O'Malley went to all the meetings & did all the work - you tell me who was being taken advantage of there.

SF was a better opportunity for the Giants than Minneapolis would have been - all of northern California to themselves, instead of competing with the Braves Cubs Sox & Cards for a share of the upper Midwest. Who wouldn't take that deal? How do you figure Stoneham got hornswoggled?

Horace wasn't dragged out to the coast, he was given a free pass there.

[donzblock]

We have the seeds for a good alternate history SF novel here.

[Greenpeach]

Originally posted by westsidegrounds
Not at all.

Stoneham had a proposal ready for a new ballpark on the west side, by the river, on the site of a little-used railyard. City Hall wasn't interested.

Then along comes the Big O with his plan to move all the way out west. He NEEDED Stoneham - but Stoneham didn't need him.

Because Stoneham was already planning a move to Minneapolis, home of the Giants' top farm team the Millers. The Giants would have done just fine there.

So yeah, O'Malley went to all the meetings & did all the work - you tell me who was being taken advantage of there.

SF was a better opportunity for the Giants than Minneapolis would have been - all of northern California to themselves, instead of competing with the Braves Cubs Sox & Cards for a share of the upper Midwest. Who wouldn't take that deal? How do you figure Stoneham got hornswoggled?

Horace wasn't dragged out to the coast, he was given a free pass there.

In the 1950's, New York City wasn't interested in building a publicly funded stadium in Manhattan. And since Stoneham couldn't afford a privately financed one in the borough, this plan fell through. However, Moses was receptive to a new municipal stadium project in Flushing Meadow. The Yankees were willing to lease Yankee Stadium to the Giants until the city completed the new project, but by this time Stoneham was looking elsewhere. This is the point where Minneapolis entered the picture.

[westsidegrounds]

[i]. This is the point where Minneapolis entered the picture. [/B]

Mm.

Just conjecture on my part, but:

I'm thinking the point at which Minneapolis entered the picture was approximately one second after the following figures crossed Stoneham's desk:

Boston Braves 1952 attendance: 281,278
Milwaukee Braves 1953 attendance: 1,826,397


Yeah - I think it would have been right around then ...

[westsidegrounds]

Originally posted by westsidegrounds

Stoneham was already planning a move to Minneapolis, home of the Giants' top farm team the Millers. The Giants would have done just fine there.

In case anybody's wondering about that - during the first ten years the Twins spent in Bloomington, their total attendance was 13,264,656.

That was only good enough to be the BEST IN THE AMERICAN FREAKIN' LEAGUE for that span of time, is all.

Just thought you'd like to know.

[tonypug]

Stoneham talked about moving to Minneapolis and Pheonix where the Giants trained. They would have done well in either place. The point is Horace talked but never did anything. It wasn't until O'Malley grabbed him by the seat of the pants and basically dragged him to SF that he actually moved . Westside is right O'Malley needed Stoneham, not the other way around. From comments Stoneham made after the fact, had New York city talked he would have listened. O'Malley became a multi millionaire in LA, SF wasn't as kind to Horace. It has only been recently that SF has become a great Major League city. They almost moved before that happened, and an O'Malley had something to do with that also.