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Thread: Albert Belle

  1. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by willshad View Post
    Actually, Belle had 4 'monster seasons', 2 very good ones, and a few good ones. If he had been able to play5 or 6 more so-so seasons, then he would be a first ballot guy. While it may be an accepted way to separate the all time greats from the very good, would it REALLY have made him a better player by playing 6 more so-so seasons?

    People want to induct Edgar Martinez...well you'd better make room for Belle first.
    edgar played 500 more games and has twice as much WAR as Belle. Of course belle would be in if he had 4-5 more seasons like his good ones. but he didn't, longevity is a part of the game too. or would you really say that longevity doesn't matter?

    belle did have HOF level talent but he couldn't do it.
    Last edited by dominik; 02-11-2012 at 12:02 PM.
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  2. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    edgar played 500 more games and has twice as much WAR as Belle. Of course belle would be in if he had 4-5 more seasons like his good ones. but he didn't, longevity is a part of the game too. or would you really say that longevity doesn't matter?

    belle did have HOF level talent but he couldn't do it.
    He couldn't "do" it because of a degenerative condition in his hip.

  3. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by willshad View Post
    Actually, Belle had 4 'monster seasons', 2 very good ones, and a few good ones. If he had been able to play5 or 6 more so-so seasons, then he would be a first ballot guy. While it may be an accepted way to separate the all time greats from the very good, would it REALLY have made him a better player by playing 6 more so-so seasons?

    People want to induct Edgar Martinez...well you'd better make room for Belle first.
    I definitely agree that Albert Belle's career was much better than Edgar's. I just can't quite put him into the Hall with only 10 full seasons played, despite the fact that is was very good ball. But he's very close. Had he put up 3-4 more similar years, then he'd be a shoe-in. 3-4 more years puts him at 500 HRs with very good percentages.

  4. #279
    I'd put him in because I'm a big peak guy, and Belle was a beast in his prime. Definitely one of the best hitters of the 1990's. A healthy Belle at the plate was probably the second best hitter in the AL after Frank Thomas, or possibly third after Edgar Martinez and Thomas.

  5. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenrir View Post
    I'd put him in because I'm a big peak guy, and Belle was a beast in his prime. Definitely one of the best hitters of the 1990's. A healthy Belle at the plate was probably the second best hitter in the AL after Frank Thomas, or possibly third after Edgar Martinez and Thomas.
    I remember in 1997 or so, when belle went to the White Sox, people were thinking it would be the next Ruth/Gehrig combo. Couldn't really blame them, as they were the best hitters in the league from 1994-1996. it didn;t work out, though, as Belle had an off year in 1997 and Thomas had an off year in 1998, then belle was gone.

  6. #281
    I always thought Belle was kept out because of steroids. If there's no evidence that he ever used steroids, then it's not right to keep him out.
    Last edited by redban; 07-26-2012 at 01:25 PM.

  7. #282
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    He's one of the top sluggers ever. He had an amazing peak. His OPS+ is very good . His RBI/162 is amazing. He should be in the hall. His peak alone warrants it.
    Absurd player rated over Steve Garvey>>>>Terry Puhl 1361 career hits career .388 slugger We'll keep em comin' , you keep a laughing

  8. #283
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    I have NO DOUBT in my mind that if Belle had the same public persona as Kirby Puckett while Belle as active he would have voted to the HoF on his first try. He would have gotten the same sympathy vote because of his degenerative hip that Kirby got for for going blind IMO. Though I believe Kirby was a solid HoFer anyway.
    Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 09-05-2013 at 11:11 AM.
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  9. #284
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    Put him on any All 90's team for sure.
    “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” – Walter Lippmann

    "As is the generation of leaves, so is that of humanity.
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    So one generation of men will grow while another dies." - Homer

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  10. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by redban View Post
    I always thought Belle was kept out because of steroids. If there's no evidence that he ever used steroids, then it's not right to keep him out.
    It wouldn't be right if steroids was what was keeping him out. But it's not. His antagonisitc relationship with the writers and an injury-shortened career is what kept him out.

    Belle, not Manny Ramirez or Jim Thome, was the premier slugger from those mid-90's Indians teams. Just an absolute beast. Outside of Frank Thomas there was no more dangerous a hitter in the AL in the 90's.

    I can't believe he was one and done.
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  11. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by willshad View Post
    I remember in 1997 or so, when belle went to the White Sox, people were thinking it would be the next Ruth/Gehrig combo. Couldn't really blame them, as they were the best hitters in the league from 1994-1996. it didn;t work out, though, as Belle had an off year in 1997 and Thomas had an off year in 1998, then belle was gone.
    I was lucky enough to get some really good seats near the visitor's dugout at Fenway when the ChiSox were visiting sometime in those two seasons. Belle came out on deck and I thought, "That is a very large gentleman there."
    Then Thomas came out, and I decided that the first guy was actually the batboy with a Belle jersey on.
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  12. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
    It wouldn't be right if steroids was what was keeping him out. But it's not. His antagonisitc relationship with the writers and an injury-shortened career is what kept him out.

    Belle, not Manny Ramirez or Jim Thome, was the premier slugger from those mid-90's Indians teams. Just an absolute beast. Outside of Frank Thomas there was no more dangerous a hitter in the AL in the 90's.

    I can't believe he was one and done.
    Belle is exhibit A in the case for a need for the BBWAA to review the one-and-dones. I am sure that there are a number of BBWAA members that didn't vote for a guy never dreaming that nobody else would either.
    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

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  13. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    I have NO DOUBT in my mind that if Belle had the same public persona as Kirby Puckett while Belle as active he would have voted to the HoF on his first try. He would have gotten the same sympathy vote because of his degenerative hip that Kirby got for for going blind IMO. Though I believe Kirby was a solid HoFer anyway.
    Deserving or not, media darling or not, a players with no MVPs, no postseason heroics, no batting titles, fewer than 400 homeruns, and fewer than 1300 RBIs is not getting in 1st ballot. I have no doubt his personality did him no favors with the voters, but it didn't keep him out of the HOF his first year.

    People always talk about 1995, but I wonder how many people remember that his BA, Slugg, and OB% were all better in 1994. A lot more so in a few cases. Shortened season and all of the heroics from Griffey, Gwynn, Bagwell, and Thomas really overshadowed that fantastic offensive season.
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  14. #289
    Mo Vaughan and he was a better hitter, so...

  15. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    Deserving or not, media darling or not, a players with no MVPs, no postseason heroics, no batting titles, fewer than 400 homeruns, and fewer than 1300 RBIs is not getting in 1st ballot. I have no doubt his personality did him no favors with the voters, but it didn't keep him out of the HOF his first year.

    People always talk about 1995, but I wonder how many people remember that his BA, Slugg, and OB% were all better in 1994. A lot more so in a few cases. Shortened season and all of the heroics from Griffey, Gwynn, Bagwell, and Thomas really overshadowed that fantastic offensive season.
    Belle's 1994 numbers over a 162 game season:
    148 runs, 222 hits, 53 doubles, 55 HR, 154 RBI , .357 , .438 .714

    Pretty much a prime Babe Ruth season, except with more doubles and hits.
    People go on and on about Miguel Cabrera..well Belle was at least as good as Cabrera during his peak.

  16. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by willshad View Post
    Belle's 1994 numbers over a 162 game season:
    148 runs, 222 hits, 53 doubles, 55 HR, 154 RBI , .357 , .438 .714
    That would have been a season to remember.
    “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” – Walter Lippmann

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    The wind scatters the leaves on the ground, but the live timber
    Burgeons with leaves again in the season of spring returning.
    So one generation of men will grow while another dies." - Homer

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  17. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1905 Giants View Post
    That would have been a season to remember.
    Im wondering if the strike cost Belle the HOF. How much would it have helped his case to have put together the best 'clean' hitting season of the last 50+ years? Of course. Thomas may well have been battling him for that title the very same year.
    Last edited by willshad; 09-05-2013 at 11:50 PM.

  18. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by willshad View Post
    Im wondering if the strike cost Belle the HOF. How much would it have helped his case to have put together the best 'clean' hitting season of the last 50+ years? Of course. Thomas may well have been battling him for that title the very same year.
    His career still would have been short. His relationship with the press still would have been poision.
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  19. #294
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    The more I look at the numbers, the more I think that belle probably has the best non-steroid hitting peak, if not the longest, since the days of Williams and Mantle.

    For a three season stretch, his 162 game averages were over 200 hits, 50 doubles, 50 home runs, and 150 RBI. He was like Pujols, but with more RBI. Then he had the same type of season in 1998.

  20. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by willshad View Post
    The more I look at the numbers, the more I think that belle probably has the best non-steroid hitting peak, if not the longest, since the days of Williams and Mantle.

    For a three season stretch, his 162 game averages were over 200 hits, 50 doubles, 50 home runs, and 150 RBI. He was like Pujols, but with more RBI. Then he had the same type of season in 1998.
    non-Steroid as in Belle didn't use steroids? What is that belief based on?

  21. #296
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    His 1998 season was no where as good as it looks from the raw stats. He was terrible in April, and not so great in May and June. His raw totals look decent (I think he averaged about 0.270 with 15 homers in the first half), but he left on a legion of baserunners.

    He was one of the primary reasons why the White Sox got buried and fell out of contention. He had as good a second half as anyone I've ever seen, but it was completely a case of hitting when there was nothing on the line. The White Sox went 33-48 in the first half, and a lot of that falls on Albert Belle. He left on so many baserunners, I still remember it 15 years later. His second half is meaningless, because it meant nothing to the success of the White Sox.

    Context matters, and he failed that year, so please don't think his 1998 helped his cause. Those of us who had to suffer with him know better.

    By the way, that era Sox team was as unlikeable as any in my memory....Albert Belle, Jaime Navaro, Tony Philips all were cancers. Ozzie Guillen and Frank Thomas were friendly relative to them.

  22. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
    His 1998 season was no where as good as it looks from the raw stats. He was terrible in April, and not so great in May and June. His raw totals look decent (I think he averaged about 0.270 with 15 homers in the first half), but he left on a legion of baserunners.

    He was one of the primary reasons why the White Sox got buried and fell out of contention. He had as good a second half as anyone I've ever seen, but it was completely a case of hitting when there was nothing on the line. The White Sox went 33-48 in the first half, and a lot of that falls on Albert Belle. He left on so many baserunners, I still remember it 15 years later. His second half is meaningless, because it meant nothing to the success of the White Sox.

    Context matters, and he failed that year, so please don't think his 1998 helped his cause. Those of us who had to suffer with him know better.

    By the way, that era Sox team was as unlikeable as any in my memory....Albert Belle, Jaime Navaro, Tony Philips all were cancers. Ozzie Guillen and Frank Thomas were friendly relative to them.
    I would have guessed that Thomas would shoulder the blame for the Sox troubles that year. Belle did not do great the first half, but he did manage 66 RBI, and had a better first half than Thomas. Then, Thomas continued his mediocrity in the second half when Belle turned it on. If Thomas had hit like he usually does , how much better would they have been?

  23. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by willshad View Post
    I would have guessed that Thomas would shoulder the blame for the Sox troubles that year. Belle did not do great the first half, but he did manage 66 RBI, and had a better first half than Thomas. Then, Thomas continued his mediocrity in the second half when Belle turned it on. If Thomas had hit like he usually does , how much better would they have been?

    Yes Frank Thomas wasn't having a great year, and he took some blame, but looking back both he and Ray Durham had OBP around 0.380. Without going back and looking at specific box scores, you'll just have to trust me...Albert Belle let us down more than FT or any other offensive player.

    Put it this way, after that season, Belle was off the team and my White Sox friends and family were all 100% happy he was gone. Let that sink in...a 0.330 hitter who hit 49 homers, and we were all happy he left. I'm not giving hyperbole, every single Sox person I knew was happy to get rid of him, between his cancerous nature and lack of production when it mattered. We thought his salary could have been much more wisely used. You might think us all insane, but if you had been part of our Sox fandom, you probably would have agreed.

  24. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by baltimorechop View Post
    non-Steroid as in Belle didn't use steroids? What is that belief based on?
    Cotton Mather says hello.

    What is your "belief" that Belle used based on?
    Absurd player rated over Steve Garvey>>>>Terry Puhl 1361 career hits career .388 slugger We'll keep em comin' , you keep a laughing

  25. #300
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    I'm not real up on Belle, so I have a question: did he get Bondish respect from pitchers? You know the 'oh man I don't want to throw this guy anything good' attitude?
    “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” – Walter Lippmann

    "As is the generation of leaves, so is that of humanity.
    The wind scatters the leaves on the ground, but the live timber
    Burgeons with leaves again in the season of spring returning.
    So one generation of men will grow while another dies." - Homer

    BY THE BOW OF HERACLES

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