Sandy Koufax

[west coast orange and black]

one dogeer cathcer+ one pitcher with bad fastball+ one comment to slow it down+ one arrogant person who doesnt wnat to pitch cuz of a jewish holioday in a WORLD SERIES GAME!!!!= three year stint of an ok brooklyn pitcher
ITZ ALL MATH

what the hell is going on here?

who the hell are you blast a person's fundamental faith when that person's religious beliefs do not tread upon others?

i find your thinking highly offensive and think that your post displays ignorance and anti-semitism.

i am really saddened... and ticked off!

[west coast orange and black]

Well, let's not lose sight of the fact that NBA players are scheduled to play games on Christmas Day, Easter, and during Hannukah and Ramadan... NFL players have to play on Thanksgiving rather than be with their families, etc. It's not exactly a black-and-white issue.

i think that it is you losing sight of the facts, ipod: professional athletes are bound by their contracts only so far as they choose to go. >>> if a player does not honor the contract then the team's management can levy a fine and suspension and the fans can write that player off. >>> you know, create an effect tied to money.

the players all willingly choose their professions; no one puts a gun to their heads to sign on the dotted line.

koufax did what he did not knowing what the consequences would be, exactly, and that is called character. he did what he believed in, and that is honorable.

it IS a black-and-white issue: someone here at baseball-fever went after someone because that person honored his own religion.

[west coast orange and black]

the very fact that koufax made his decision in the face of so much pressure coming at him from so many directions ought to describe clearly just what his faith, exactly, meant to him. right now i am bleeding dodger blue... and if you have an ounce of an idea where that statement is coming from then you have a clear understanding as to who/what i am.

[iPod]

i think that it is you losing sight of the facts, ipod: professional athletes are bound by their contracts only so far as they choose to go. >>> if a player does not honor the contract then the team's management can levy a fine and suspension and the fans can write that player off. >>> you know, create an effect tied to money.

the players all willingly choose their professions; no one puts a gun to their heads to sign on the dotted line.

koufax did what he did not knowing what the consequences would be, exactly, and that is called character. he did what he believed in, and that is honorable.

it IS a black-and-white issue: someone here at baseball-fever went after someone because that person honored his own religion.

No, it's not a black-and-white issue. It's not. Frankly I can't believe anyone would say it is.

Sandy Koufax decided to do something that he believed was right, but he also put his team in a huge pinch. The Dodgers needed him to show up; the millions of Los Angeles sports fans out there needed him to show up. And he didn't. He did what he thought was right; ok, that's great. But he did make a huge sacrifice, put the Dodgers and their fans on the line, over something which the vast majority of people in the world don't believe in.

You can look at that two completely different ways. That, by definition, can't be a black-and-white, right-answer, wrong-answer issue. If you say otherwise, your opinion is just as stubborn as ElHalo's.

[shlevine42]

...Sandy Koufax decided to do something that he believed was right, but he also put his team in a huge pinch. The Dodgers needed him to show up; the millions of Los Angeles sports fans out there needed him to show up. And he didn't. He did what he thought was right; ok, that's great. But he did make a huge sacrifice, put the Dodgers and their fans on the line, over something which the vast majority of people in the world don't believe in.

I'm curious.

Just what is it that "the vast majority of people of the world don't believe in." Religion in general? Or Judaism in particular?

[abacab]

Barry Bonds missed several games of the regular season last year due to the sickness and eventual death of his father.

Let's pretend the Giants had won the pennant, and Bobby Bonds died before Game 1 of the Series. Barry, grief-stricken, sits out the first three games.

Would you blame him for that? Would you say that he let down his team? Would you say he backstabbed thousands of Giant fans? I hope you would not.

Criticizing Koufax for missing one game - ONE GAME - due to Yom Kippur is equivalent to tearing him down for missing the game due to a death in his family, or the birth of a child.


"The millions of fans needed him to show up..." Come on. These men play a game. They are not saving lives or providing a vital service. They are entertainers.

Real life is more important than baseball.

[prof93]

Good heavens, what the heck is the matter with people when you think a sport should come before ones faith. Who cares what the Dodgers and their fans thought, if they had any respect for Koufax they would understand.

After all this time has passed why cant we come to understand Koufax's stance. Just 20 years before, if you lived in Germany,Poland, or Hungary, where it was dangerous and even lethal just to be a Jew - much less be public about it. During WWII the Jews survived in forced labor camps and lost, among others, both their parents and their children in places like Auschwitz. To anyone who can appreciate what they went thru , to have a well known Jew who declared his Judaism openly as Sandy Koufax, was heroic beyond words.

[west coast orange and black]

“But he did make a huge sacrifice, put the Dodgers and their fans on the line, over something which the vast majority of people in the world don't believe in.”

incredibly, if i read this correctly, it has to do with "as long as you believe what i believe all is well".

how far we still must climb if we do not accept others for who they are/what they identify as.

[west coast orange and black]

I'm curious.

Just what is it that "the vast majority of people of the world don't believe in." Religion in general? Or Judaism in particular?

i, too was curious. but now i just wanna go and soak my head.

[iPod]

I meant Judaism, and I only meant it literally. Most people aren't Jews, so it's hard for most people to feel for Koufax's decision except in the "He did what he thought was best, though I don't personally understand," sort of way. I didn't mean Judaism was stupid. And I didn't mean that you have to believe what I do, so no, you didn't read it right.

If Barry Bonds' father died before the World Series and he missed Game 1, I wouldn't hold it against Bonds as a person, but I would be very frustrated. Why shouldn't I be? I'm a Giants fan, and I've invested a lot of time and energy over the year (and over my life) to see the team come this far. I don't think it's unfair to demonize someone if he was frustrated by Koufax not pitching in Game 1 of the World Series, for whatever reason. I don't hold it against Sandy Koufax as a person, but I realize that people were frustrated by his decision purely as fans. That's why I'm saying it's not a black-and-white issue.

But, hey, if you'd feel better just thinking I'm a bigot, go ahead.

[shlevine42]

I meant Judaism, and I only meant it literally. Most people aren't Jews, so it's hard for most people to feel for Koufax's decision except in the "He did what he thought was best, though I don't personally understand," sort of way. I didn't mean Judaism was stupid. And I didn't mean that you have to believe what I do, so no, you didn't read it right.

Give people more credit than that.

It may be hard for you to feel for Koufax's decision, but I think "most people" -- at least most thinking adults -- would have no trouble understanding it...in the same way that most people who didn't lose a loved one in the 9/11 attacks are able to feel for the families who did.

It's called empathy.
And sensitivity.
And tolerance.
It describes who we are...a society founded on freedom of expression and religious beliefs.

And it often (but not always) comes with maturity.

[west coast orange and black]

I meant Judaism, and I only meant it literally. Most people aren't Jews, so it's hard for most people to feel for Koufax's decision except in the "He did what he thought was best, though I don't personally understand," sort of way. I didn't mean Judaism was stupid. And I didn't mean that you have to believe what I do, so no, you didn't read it right.

But, hey, if you'd feel better just thinking I'm a bigot, go ahead.

i never have and do not foresee myself ever feeling good thinking that someone is a bigot.

[julusnc]

Nevermind.I will be quite before I get pissed.

[iPod]

Give people more credit than that.

It may be hard for you to feel for Koufax's decision, but I think "most people" -- at least most thinking adults -- would have no trouble understanding it...in the same way that most people who didn't lose a loved one in the 9/11 attacks are able to feel for the families who did.

It's called empathy.
And sensitivity.
And tolerance.
It describes who we are...a society founded on freedom of expression and religious beliefs.

And it often (but not always) comes with maturity.

Guys, I must have said something wrong, so I'll just start over, because I'm not even really saying anything at all. I'm just trying to say, I understand why people would be frustrated by his decision. I don't see why people should feel guilty about feeling that way. Saying Sandy Koufax was "arrogant" for it, or that he deserves to be ridiculed as a person... that's wrong. The guy that started all this, he was wrong. But it doesn't mean that the fans should have just said "Hey, Sandy, that's fine, I can totally forget the fact that I've been following the Dodgers all year and there are millions of us out here that want you to win the World Series for us." They don't have the right to insult Koufax for his decision, but they are allowed to really want him to play, and be very disappointed as fans if he doesn't.

I do understand Koufax's decision, but I can understand why other people wouldn't, in other words. And, by the way, lots of people obviously don't, or understand it and disagree with it, or else it wouldn't be such a huge controversy. That's why I thought I would just point out that the alternate argument exists as innocuously as I could so I wouldn't get flamed. I did get flamed, though, so I'll just let this thread be.

[leecemark]

--Ipod, just so you won't think the whole site is ganging up on you I wanted to say I didn't think your post on this subject was inflammatory or unreasonable (although I can't say the same for the poster who started this controversy). Koufax had a right to refuse to work. Dodger fans, his teammates and management had a right to be frustrated, disappointed or even angry. His decison didn't effect only him. I'm certainly not condeming Koufax for doing what he thinks was right, but there is more than one point of view and it would be nice if alternative views could be put forward here without being accused of bigotry.
-- I'd have the same feeling on the subject if Koufax had made the decison for something I better understand and relate to. Someone made the comparison between this and Barry Bonds taking time off when his father was dying. I like to point out that players have lost their father on the eve of the Series and gone on to play (For example, Bobo Newsom's father died the day before the 1940 Series). If I remember right, Brett Favre started a Monday Night Football game the day after his father died last season. Not exactly the same thing of course, but different people handle things in different ways.

[ElHalo]

-- I'd have the same feeling on the subject if Koufax had made the decison for something I better understand and relate to. Someone made the comparison between this and Barry Bonds taking time off when his father was dying. I like to point out that players have lost their father on the eve of the Series and gone on to play (For example, Bobo Newsom's father died the day before the 1940 Series). If I remember right, Brett Favre started a Monday Night Football game the day after his father died last season. Not exactly the same thing of course, but different people handle things in different ways.

Paul O'Neill did a similar thing... starting, I believe it was game 3, of the WS the day after his father died.

[santotohof]

The topical horse analgesic spoken of is ( I think the initials are right) DMSO. It was regularly used for " sore arms" in the sixties. Len Dawson used it ,Jim Bouton and Sudden Sam McDowell to name a few better known.

[RuthMayBond]

Barry Bonds missed several games of the regular season last year due to the sickness and eventual death of his father.

Let's pretend the Giants had won the pennant, and Bobby Bonds died before Game 1 of the Series. Barry, grief-stricken, sits out the first three games.

Would you blame him for that? Would you say that he let down his team? Would you say he backstabbed thousands of Giant fans? I hope you would not.

That's an, uh, interesting comparison

[J W]

bleeeech....

I followed this topic all the way back to GlavineKO's original comment. Looks like a lot of people are angry with each other now.

Well, I'll chime in with my opinion, but I'm not going to get in a shouting match with anyone over this.

Some thoughts:

-Christmas has become quite a bastardization of what it used to be. Commercialism has completely taken it, and Easter, over. Nontheless, it is correct to say that they are celebratory holidays, while Yom Kippur is quite the opposite. I would equate Yom Kippur more with the true Christian holidays such as Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. Now if a Catholic athlete would honor Lent, and that would interfere with his performance, you have a similar story.

-Organized religion can be viewed as silly sometimes. But while I can best describe myself as a, er, "spiritual agnostic with a Christian background", I cannot take the stance of, say, Bill Maher, who believes that organized religion is the bane of all existence. I believe in the power of faith, even if it is faith in something which I believe is merely metaphor.

-Besides, our country is founded (partly) on freedom of religion. I cannot persecute an employee for his/her religious beliefs OR rituals. At least, I'm not supposed to.

So no, I do not blame Koufax for sitting out his game. Nor do I know enough about his motivations to do so. I can only assume he was observing his faith as he was taught to do.

I think everybody needs to take a deep breath here.

[west coast orange and black]

i stepped back and am breathing ok now.

[The Commissioner]

It sould probably also be noted, that despite the Dodgers losing game 1, which Koufax sat out, they did go on to win the World Series in no small part to Koufax's eventual efforts He came back to give up only 2 Twins runs (one earned) in 24 innings of work. These included complete game shutouts in games #5 and #7. Did it not just possibly benefit, rather than harm, his teammates and fans that he took Yom Kippur off? I would question whether the time off did indeed interfere with his performance as others have suggested, or perhaps allowed him the peace of mind to return to the mound and completely dominate ( 7 hits in his last 18 innings of work) a Twins club that won 102 games that season?

[west coast orange and black]

It sould probably also be noted, that despite the Dodgers losing game 1, which Koufax sat out, they did go on to win the World Series in no small part to Koufax's eventual efforts He came back to give up only 2 Twins runs (one earned) in 24 innings of work. These included complete game shutouts in games #5 and #7. Did it not just possibly benefit, rather than harm, his teammates and fans that he took Yom Kippur off? I would question whether the time off did indeed interfere with his performance as others have suggested, or perhaps allowed him the peace of mind to return to the mound and completely dominate ( 7 hits in his last 18 innings of work) a Twins club that won 102 games that season?

solid mentionings, commish, but off point. >>> this whole thing has to do with koufax's decision at the time that he made it. period. if he had gone on to getraked and lose two games what would you be reporting?

again: koufax ought not be crucified because he stuck his neck out there and made a decision for himself, by himself. he had no way of knowing what was gonna happen... and he did not allow that to enter into his decision-making process.

to me, that defines character. to me, that is honorable. maybe i am just too old-fashioned.

[rockin500]

I find this whole debate very disturbing. I'm sorry, but the team is always third behind Family and religion. If you arent religious (like me) then its second behind family.

i dont see how this should even be a topic open to discussion...

[abacab]

I think it's because some fans see ballplayers as performers instead of people, and feel that the players owe them and should have to play on demand regardless of what else is going on in their lives. While it's true that players owe their livelihood to the fans, that debt should be paid by signing autographs and answering reporter's questions and whatnot, not sacrificing their personal lives. That's my opinion, anyway.

[rockin500]

i remember what my head coach for my football team said on our first day of practice my sophomore year: Family first, school second, football third.