Was Rube Wadell mentally "retarded"

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Bill James asked this question in his original Baseball Historical Abstract. Wadell displayed some seriously weird behavior. Here are some of the stories I've read:

1. He wasn't given his salary all at once. The coaches would give him a few dollars at a time because if he received it all at once he'd vanish for days.

2. He'd chase fire trucks.

3. Opponents would try to distract him by giving hims toys. They's lay them out ont he field and say "Look, Rube!" Waddell would then lose focus on the game.

4. The had teammates follow him on days he pitches to make sure he came to the ball park.

I doubt Waddell was medically mentally "retarded". He pitched in the major for many years and had great success. A truly mentally "retarded" person couldn't possibly have the mental capacity to play major league baseball. It's quite possible he may have had some chemical imbalance that could be treated today.

[Bleacherbee]

Um, Rube Waddell was just a terrible, terrible drunk. He wouldn't be given all his money because he'd spend it on booze. He used to steal things at the ballpark and sell them for booze.

He loved him some booze.
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I date all my baseball photos using the following book. (Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century: The Official ML BB Guide, Researched, Illustrated & Written by Marc Okkonen, 1991, 1993)

Also, the following website, hostd by the Hall of Fame, mainly using the same book above, but also using images after 1993, has assisted me in dating some of the photos. http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.o...e.htm#database

On this photographic gallery, I have attempted, using the book above, to date all the photos. If I caption a photo with the following, John Smith, Cubs OF, 1910-13, that means that the photo was taken sometime between 1910-13, when the player was on the Cubs. It does NOT mean that the player was only on the Cubs in that time frame. He might have been on the Cubs from 1900-18, but the photo was only taken between 1910-13.
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Source: Top: That Old Ball Game: rare photographs from baseball's glorious past, Compiled/Edited by David R. Phillips, text by Lawrence Kart, 1975, pp. 65.
Source: Bottom, Left: Rube Waddell: Baseball: An Illustrated History, by Geoffrey C. Ward & Ken Burns, 1994, pp. 74.
Source: Bottom, Right: Right: Rube Waddell: Sporting News Presents Heroes of the Hall: Baseball's all-time best, by Ron Smith, 2002, pp. 460.

---------Rube Waddell, Browns' P, 1909-10


-------------------------As an A, 1902-07-----------------------------------------------1902-07 (Leland's Auction)



----------------Rube Waddell, St. Louis Browns, ----------------------------St. Louis Browns---BB Reference
------------------studio photo, 1908-09-----------------------------same photo session, same canvass backdrop


Source: Below, middle: The Great American Baseball Scrapbook, by A. D. Suehsdorf, 1978, pp. 36.

Rube Waddell, Los Angeles Looloos' P, 1901-'02,-----Phil. A's' P, 1902-'07
-BB Reference-----------------------------------------note the A on his shirt front,
--------------------------------------------------------standing on a sandlot pitching rubber.


Source: Below: The Glory of Their Times booklet, by Lawrence Ritter, 1998. Booklet accompanied the release of 4 CD set of interviews, conducted by Ritter, 1964-66.

Rube Waddell/Christy Mathewson: 1908


-----------Rube Waddell, studio photo, 1902-------------------------------------1908

Source: left: INTERNET
Source: right: Rube Waddell: Who's Who in Major League Baseball, ed. by Harold (Speed) Johnson, 1933, pp. 476. (Moffett-Russell Studio)

----2 studio shots of Rube: 1902.


--------------3 shots of The Rube, as a Phil. A., 1905---------------------------------------------------------1902-07.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Um, Rube Waddell was just a terrible, terrible drunk. He wouldn't be given all his money because he'd spend it on booze. He used to steal things at the ballpark and sell them for booze.

He loved him some booze.

I'm really interested, where did you read this?
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Source: Top, Left: INTERNET
Source: Top, Right: INTERNET
Source: Bottom, Left: The Baseball Timeline, by Burt Solomon, 2001, pp. 123.

---------------Rube Waddell, 1901 Chicago Orphans


St. Louis Browns, P, 1908-10----------------------------------------------------------1908


--------------------------------------1908----------------------------------------------------------------------------1906



Source: Below, right: 150 Years of Baseball, 1989, pp. 90.

Rube Waddell, San Antonio, TX, 1914 lying in his deathbed
from tuberculois, only 38 yrs. old. Lutheran Sanatorium.,


Source: Left: Smithsonian Baseball: Inside The World's Finest Private Collections, by Stephan Wong, 2005, pp. 244.
Source: Right: Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century: The Official ML BB Guide, Researched, Illustrated & Written by Marc Okkonen, 1993, pp. 76.

Rube Waddell, St. Louis Browns' P, 1909---------------------------------1908-10


1901 Los Angeles Looloos
Nap Lajoie (Top, far L); Rube Waddell (top, middle)


------------------------------1908 St. Louis Browns, 83-69, .546, 4th Place, 6.5 g. behind---BB Reference

Source: SABR's The National Pastime: Special Pictorial Issue: The Dead Ball Era, Spring, 1986, #5, pp. 42.
Or one can alternately use 100 Years of Major League Baseball, American and National Leagues, 1901-2000, by David Nemec/Saul Wisnia, 2000, pp. 19.

Top Row: L-R: Jim Stevens (C), Bert Blue (C), Rube Waddell (P), Bill Dinneen (P), Tom Jones (1B), Joe Yeager (2B), Jimmy Williams (2B)

Middle Row: L-R: Jack O'Connor (coach), Al Schweitzer (OF), Charlie Jones (OF), George Stone (LF), Danny Hoffman (CF), Tubby Spencer (C), Dode Criss (RF)

Bottom Row: L-R: Bobby Wallace (SS), Barney Pelty (P), Harry Howell (P), Jimmy McAleer (Mgr.), Roy Hartzell (RF), Jack Powelll (P), Hobe Ferris (3B)


2 Shots of Rube Waddell when he was on the Philadelphia Athletics.---------------------------And one when he was with the St. Louis Browns.
Source: Far Right: The American League Story, by Lee Allen, 1965, pp. 116.

[Bleacherbee]

The whole drunk thing was Al Stump, take that however you want to

---Rube as a St. Louis Brown: 1908; shot on the left is taken from the shot on the right.

[westsidegrounds]

One thing to keep in mind is that sportwriters of Waddell's time considered themselves to be entertainers at least as much as reporters. Coming up with "good stories" was part of their job, and anything that sounds unlikely - Waddell running off the mound to chase a firetruck for example - needs to be taken with considerable skepticism.

Al Stump wasn't there. Everything I've seen in BB history books about Waddell describes him as, let's say, eccentric, rather than alcoholic - and these are sources that have no trouble identifying players such as Foxx, Waner, Alexander, and many lesser lights as problem drinkers.

Whether and to what extent he was actually mentally disturbed is unclear. Bipolar maybe? It seems to fit in some ways.

[Bleacherbee]

Al Stump wasn't there.

But the person he was writing about at the time was

[ElHalo]

Bill believes that Waddell was autistic, which may have been the case. He also was known as a boozer, hence his arm injury in a bar fight that effectively ended his career.

[BigStellyPADRES4LIFE]

All these stories make Wadell entertaining to say the least, I love the guy and his style of pitching... all crazy like. He wasnt a retard just kind of childish, oh and there is nothing wrong with boozing it up a bit... I do it all the time...

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Bill believes that Waddell was autistic, which may have been the case. He also was known as a boozer, hence his arm injury in a bar fight that effectively ended his career.

That's an interesting theory. I'd like to read more...

[wamby]

I believe that Waddell was mildly retarded (perhaps in the 65-69 IQ range). I've worked with students with this degree of functioning and many of their traits are the same same type of traits atributed to Waddell. In todays world, I doubt if Waddell would have ever been allowed to play baseball at any level.

I have no doubt that during his lifetime, Waddell would have been labeled feebleminded (the contmeporary term for MR). An acknowledged authority at the time (c. 1910) was H.H. Goddard who did a lot of research (much of which would be considered unacceptable today) on the subject of feeblemindedness and came up with the following criterium for determining feeblemindedness:

Family history-according to a recent biography, Waddell's father was considered the local eccentric whe Waddell was a kid.

Drunkeness (substance abuse)-Waddell was known for this

Sexual promiscuity-another thing Waddell was noted for.

I doubt if Waddell ever had any type of Intelligence testing. The Binet test wasn't introduced to the US until 1908. Goddard and men like Terman tweked it but it was not very reliable. It was too culturally biased. The first first mass testing was performed in 1917, after Waddell had died. The tests during WW1 were so skewed that they determined that the average American male of draft age had below-average intelligence. When this came out the work of people like Goddard came under a lot of scrutiny and the long process of determing the model measures of MR began to be devised.

It would be interesting to be able to give a full battery of tests to Waddel. Perhaps it was some type of chemical imbalance, but I don't think that it was. I don't believe that he was autistic either. maybe he had Aspbergers Sndrome. This is just my opinion however. Gentlemen like Goddard had no fear of forensically diagnosing someone who had been dead for 100 years. I won't try to do that.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I believe that Waddell was mildly retarded (perhaps in the 65-69 IQ range). I've worked with students with this degree of functioning and many of their traits are the same same type of traits atributed to Waddell. In todays world, I doubt if Waddell would have ever been allowed to play baseball at any level.

I have no doubt that during his lifetime, Waddell would have been labeled feebleminded (the contmeporary term for MR). An acknowledged authority at the time (c. 1910) was H.H. Goddard who did a lot of research (much of which would be considered unacceptable today) on the subject of feeblemindedness and came up with the following criterium for determining feeblemindedness:

Family history-according to a recent biography, Waddell's father was considered the local eccentric whe Waddell was a kid.

Drunkeness (substance abuse)-Waddell was known for this

Sexual promiscuity-another thing Waddell was noted for.

I doubt if Waddell ever had any type of Intelligence testing. The Binet test wasn't introduced to the US until 1908. Goddard and men like Terman tweked it but it was not very reliable. It was too culturally biased. The first first mass testing was performed in 1917, after Waddell had died. The tests during WW1 were so skewed that they determined that the average American male of draft age had below-average intelligence. When this came out the work of people like Goddard came under a lot of scrutiny and the long process of determing the model measures of MR began to be devised.

It would be interesting to be able to give a full battery of tests to Waddel. Perhaps it was some type of chemical imbalance, but I don't think that it was. I don't believe that he was autistic either. maybe he had Aspbergers Sndrome. This is just my opinion however. Gentlemen like Goddard had no fear of forensically diagnosing someone who had been dead for 100 years. I won't try to do that.

I do have my doubts how a milded retarted person could perform at the major league level. Pitching against major league hitters is an activity that requires high concentration, quick thinking, and ability to analyze game situations. Waddell was a great pitcher for several years, stiking out over 300 hitters in one season. In the Dead Ball era that is impressive.

[westsidegrounds]

I do have my doubts how a milded retarted person could perform at the major league level. Pitching against major league hitters is an activity that requires high concentration, quick thinking, and ability to analyze game situations. Waddell was a great pitcher for several years, stiking out over 300 hitters in one season. In the Dead Ball era that is impressive.

Good point.

Asperger's Syndrome seems like an interesting theory.

However much he may have drunk, accounts of the time - which do need to be taken with plenty of salt - make it clear that Waddell's behaviors were regarded as being in a different class from those of his alcohol-abusing contemporaries.

[bluezebra]

"Drunkeness (substance abuse)-Waddell was known for this

Sexual promiscuity-another thing Waddell was noted for."

That takes in a HUGE portion of the American male population.

Bob

[wamby]

"Drunkeness (substance abuse)-Waddell was known for this

Sexual promiscuity-another thing Waddell was noted for."

That takes in a HUGE portion of the American male population.

Bob

Goddard's results back up what you are saying. A contemporary diagnosis of any mental condtion that Waddell suffered from would most likely be useless today.

Stephen Jay Gould wrote an excellent essay about men like Goddard in
The Mismeasure of Man.

[wamby]

I do have my doubts how a milded retarted person could perform at the major league level. Pitching against major league hitters is an activity that requires high concentration, quick thinking, and ability to analyze game situations. Waddell was a great pitcher for several years, stiking out over 300 hitters in one season. In the Dead Ball era that is impressive.

Waddell perfromed well when he was kept on an extremely tight leash by Connie Mack. I've looked for contemporary reports on Waddell's ptiching but haven't found anything interesting yet. My suspicion is that opposing players thought Waddell was a nutjob (not merely eccentric like Germany Schaefer or a run of the mill drunk like Bugs Raymond) and batters ere afraid to dig in against him because he threw so hard. His walk totals look a little high for the dead ball era. I suspect that his pitching was the only aspect of his life that he had only reall control over.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Waddell perfromed well when he was kept on an extremely tight leash by Connie Mack. I've looked for contemporary reports on Waddell's ptiching but haven't found anything interesting yet. My suspicion is that opposing players thought Waddell was a nutjob (not merely eccentric like Germany Schaefer or a run of the drunk like Bugs Raymond) and batters ere afraid to dig in against him because he threw so hard. His walk totals look a little high for the dead ball era. I suspect that his pitching was the only aspect of his life that he had only reall control over.

Another famous "nutjob" was Steve Dalkowski (sp?) the flame throwing minor pitcher of the 1960s. Bill James wrote about him in his manager's book when talking about Earl Weaver. Weaver managed him for two years I think. Weaver gave his team an IQ test and Dalkowski scored in the 60s. Weaver realized that the problem was the coaches were giving Dalkowski too much information and he couldn't take it all in. So he simplied things for him. He told him to throw nothing but fastballs and changeups. and throw strikes. Dalkowski's perfomance under Weaver was startling. Before Weaver, Dalkowski would have seasons were he'd walk 250 guys in 250 IP. Under Weaver he just dominated lowering his walk totals to about 65 (these stats are from memory so they may not be 100% accurate).

[wamby]

Another famous "nutjob" was Steve Dalkowski (sp?) the flame throwing minor pitcher of the 1960s. Bill James wrote about him in his manager's book when talking about Earl Weaver. Weaver managed him for two years I think. Weaver gave his team an IQ test and Dalkowski scored in the 60s. Weaver realized that the problem was the coaches were giving Dalkowski too much information and he couldn't take it all in. So he simplied things for him. He told him to throw nothing but fastballs and changeups. and throw strikes. Dalkowski's perfomance under Weaver was startling. Before Weaver, Dalkowski would have seasons were he'd walk 250 guys in 250 IP. Under Weaver he just dominated lowering his walk totals to about 65 (these stats are from memroy so they may not be 100% accurate).

I wouldn't be surprised if Mack had Waddell on a similar type program. I think 100 years ago a manager could have gotten away with having a pitcher who had an IQ in the 60s perform in the majors. No way that would happen since about 1945 or 1950.

[HDH]

Rube Waddell

[westsidegrounds]

Waddell perfromed well when he was kept on an extremely tight leash by Connie Mack.

And that would have enabled Waddell to lead the league in K/9IP eight times exactly how?

[wamby]

Waddell perfromed well when he was kept on an extremely tight leash by Connie Mack.

And that would have enabled Waddell to lead the league in K/9IP eight times exactly how?

This is the plate. Throw the ball fast over the plate. just keep repeating.

Don't get caught up in Rube's antics. Just keep telling him: This is the plate, Throw the ball fast over the plate.

[westsidegrounds]

[QUOTE=wamby]

This is the plate. Throw the ball fast over the plate. just keep repeating.

Don't get caught up in Rube's antics. Just keep telling him: This is the plate, Throw the ball fast over the plate.

Golly. So that's all it takes to accumulate 2300+ K's? Cool. I'll just hit the gym for a couple weeks & then look out Randy Johnson!

[George Hunter]

Months ago, I was going through a baseball history book with my eight-year-old son, and when we came to a picture of Rube, I told my boy about his supposed antics, like running off the mound to chase a fire truck, and managers having to rouse him from local saloons to pitch. I also included the anticdote from Wahoo Sam Crawford in Glory of Their Times, which described how Rube never wore underwear, and would get undressed as he ran across the field.

My son thinks all this stuff is hilarious, and he often brings up "that drunk guy who never wore any underwear."

So, true or not, they make for great stories to pass onto the kiddies!

[PopTop]

1. He wasn't given his salary all at once. The coaches would give him a few dollars at a time because if he received it all at once he'd vanish for days.

2. He'd chase fire trucks.

3. Opponents would try to distract him by giving hims toys. They's lay them out ont he field and say "Look, Rube!" Waddell would then lose focus on the game.

4. The had teammates follow him on days he pitches to make sure he came to the ball park.

Bad money management, chasing fire trucks and losing focus because of toys, ladies in the stands, etc., and heading off to bars on game days do not make you retarded. I didn't read James' Abstract, but if those were the primary basis for his question, then he wasted time writing about it.

[Imapotato]

Waddell was not autistic nor retarded

He was uneducated and had fun playing baseball, while drinking too much at times

Why was Rube not autistic nor retarded

He has many quotes noting his knowledge of the game

One game Kid Elberfield got 4 base hits off of him in a game, Rube stated after "Darn, if I knew that I would have walked him 4 times to get the no hitter" doesn't sound like mental problems there

True Hughie Jennings had the toys at 1b box to distract Rube, but even Ty Cobb didn't try and rag on Waddell, because when he got angry or slighted he focused and would beat you senseless, not somethign an autistic or retard could accomplish

He would trash talk like Deion Sanders, and against someone like Cy Young...that cost him big time as he tossed a 1 hitter while Young pitched a Perfect Game, Waddell never tried to be cocky to Cy Young again, not something someone with autism or retardation could accomlish

He was just fun loving, a Rube, and charismatic man who loved kids and women and beer (not booze, he only drank beer) he also loved wrestling and loved to take on big guys like Buck Freeman and Charlie Hickman

His Catcher Ossee Schrengost by all accounts was even weirder then Rube

and El Halo, Rube didn't rip his arm out in a drunken fight, he hurt it playfully fighting with Andy Coakley (who would go on to coach Columbia for 40 years )
before the train trip a week before the 1905 WS IIRC


If anything Rube was just one of the more kaleidoscopic characters, a braggart, an oddball, a uneducated country bumpkin in baseball's history that got phased out when baseball became more professional driven during the 60's

Rube Waddell was a real life Peter Pan, nothing more, nothing less

[barzilla]

Good point.

Asperger's Syndrome seems like an interesting theory.

However much he may have drunk, accounts of the time - which do need to be taken with plenty of salt - make it clear that Waddell's behaviors were regarded as being in a different class from those of his alcohol-abusing contemporaries.

I actually tend to think it was Asperger's. I'm certainly not a clinical psychologist, but I do have a masters in counseling. From what I've learned about Asperger's, it is extremely probable that somone can be extremely functional (really exceptional) in one particular discipline. For instance, Albert Einstein, Andy Warhol, and Andy Kaufman were thought to have Aspergers.

I had a student in one of my classes this year that had Asperger's. He had a 97 average in the class (so they can be highly functioning) but he did not interact well with the class and really needed routine. What I think is interesting about Asperger's is that people with this condition are normal in everyway (and in fact exceptional in their area of focus because they are hyperfocused) except in their ability to handle change and their inability to have meaningful interactions with others.

Now, if we take these facts and apply them you see that you might have a possible fit. Waddell obviously excelled as a pitcher but struggled because the life of a big league player away from the park is anything but routine. It's possible that any drinking was an effort to "self-medicate".

What I think is more interesting is that our "enlightenment" has potentially deprived us of a lot of creative/talented people. How many people have been held out of these activities early in life now because these conditions have been discovered.

Is there any overlap in the behaviors of one with autism and another with Asperger's Syndrome? Could they be confused with each other or are they so distinct as to be almost opposites?

Truthfully, I haven't heard of this new syndrome and would like to understand the differences between it and autism.

Could someone diagnosed as autistic, really have Asperger's?