do you think pete rose should be in the hall of fame?

[rainout]

flash143817, if Pete Rose had never got caught and was already in the Hall, would you be here telling us he shouldn't be or is this all about the gambling? Because there are really two seperate issues here.

[ADunn44]

Then it makes complete sense that your handle is of Adam Dunn, that noted singles hitter, who the Dodgers should have traded for.

actually i choose Adam Dunn cuz he is my current favorite player, and it was the easiest thing i could come up with, and the Dodgers would've had to have given up a lot to get Dunn, and why are we even talking about Dunn, this topic is about wether or not he should be in the Hall, and my stance is HELL YEAH, he should be in the hall, if a murderer (Ty Cobb) can get in Pete Rose should be in there, "Its what you do on the field as a PLAYER is what gets you into the Hall, nothing else."

[Captain Cold Nose]

actually i choose Adam Dunn cuz he is my current favorite player, and it was the easiest thing i could come up with, and the Dodgers would've had to have given up a lot to get Dunn, and why are we even talking about Dunn, this topic is about wether or not he should be in the Hall, and my stance is HELL YEAH, he should be in the hall, if a murderer (Ty Cobb) can get in Pete Rose should be in there, "Its what you do on the field as a PLAYER is what gets you into the Hall, nothing else."

Cobb was never indicted for murder.

Murder is not against the MLB rulebook.

[KHenry14]

this topic is about wether or not he should be in the Hall, and my stance is HELL YEAH, he should be in the hall, if a murderer (Ty Cobb) can get in Pete Rose should be in there, "Its what you do on the field as a PLAYER is what gets you into the Hall, nothing else."

First off, Ty's not a murderer, please ask BBFer Bill Burgess to enlighten you on the subject.

Second, I don't know what you are quoting from, but it's not from the rules regarding entrance into the Hall. From the Baseball Hall of Fame website:

Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

Pete makes it on some of this, but sure as heck fails the integrity and character parts! So in theory, voters could exclude him even if he hadn't bet on baseball.

It's been made clear numerous times on this board, Pete broke the one rule you can't break, he knew what would happen if he did, and he didn't care. Then he lies about it for 15 years, and apologizes in a book to make money. What kind of person behaves like that?

Pete will never get in during his lifetime, and he only needs to look into the mirror to know whom to blame.

KH14

[west coast orange and black]

this:
Games Played: 3,562 (1st)
ABs: 14,053 (this number up till only 1982, and he is still 1st)
Hits: 4,256 (1st)
1B: 3,215 (1st)
2B: 746 (2nd)
3B: 135
HR: 160
Times on Base: 5,929
Career Runs: 2,160 (10th)
EXBH: 1,041 (20th)
BB: 1,566 (12th)

Rose, Yastrzemski, Aaron, Cobb, Murray and Musial are the only ML players to have played 3,000+ g;
Cobb, Aaron, Ruth, Rose, Henderson and Mays are the only players to score 2,000+ runs;
Rose had the most career postseason hits (86) until Derek Jeter gets 87 on October 15, 2001
certainly is all very impressive...
and what makes it a shame that rose's gambling spoke more loudly to him.

maybe, as has been suggested, rose can be inducted into the hall after his death.
after all, he did agree to a lifetime ban.

anytime sooner, though, would destroy the credibility of rule 21(D) - betting on baseball.

[keving7]

It's been made clear numerous times on this board, Pete broke the one rule you can't break, he knew what would happen if he did, and he didn't care. Then he lies about it for 15 years, and apologizes in a book to make money. What kind of person behaves like that?

Pete will never get in during his lifetime, and he only needs to look into the mirror to know whom to blame.

KH14

I agree with you 100%

[rainout]

Murder is not against the MLB rulebook.

[ADunn44]

Cobb was never indicted for murder.

Murder is not against the MLB rulebook.

Voting — Voting shall be based upon the
player's record (Rose and Cobb both had this),
playing ability (Rose and Cobb both had this),
integrity (Cobb doesn't have),
sportsmanship (Cobb doesn't have, dirtiest player in game, Rose had this), character (Cobb doesn't have, was a real prick, Rose had this), and contributions to the team(s) (both had this) on which the player played.


Rose gets my vote here

[flash143817]

Voting — Voting shall be based upon the
player's record (Rose and Cobb both had this),
playing ability (Rose and Cobb both had this),
integrity (Cobb doesn't have),
sportsmanship (Cobb doesn't have, dirtiest player in game, Rose had this), character (Cobb doesn't have, was a real prick, Rose had this), and contributions to the team(s) (both had this) on which the player played.


Rose gets my vote here

So you would take Rose over Cobb? And since when does Rose have integrity or character? He would sell out his team to make money. Who's to say that he wouldn't do worse if it was for his own personal gain? The guy has proven time and time again that all he cares about is himself.

He agreed to the lifetime ban in exchange for not having to admit gambling. He knew what that entailed. He chose not to be in the HOF by this action. He wants to have both things and in this case he can't have them.

[flash143817]

flash143817, if Pete Rose had never got caught and was already in the Hall, would you be here telling us he shouldn't be or is this all about the gambling? Because there are really two seperate issues here.

It isn't two separate issues. The gambling was his choice and he chose not to be in the HOF by accepting that lifetime ban in exchange for not admitting gambling. It was his choice so he should live with it.

But as far as his accomplisments as a player, I think he has a HOF case, but not as good of one as a lot of people think. Fact is, he had a .303 average and a 118 OPS+ for his career. Those numbers are pedestrian for a HOFer with no power or speed. Offensively, he was basically a poor man's Wade Boggs who wasn't as good as Boggs during his peak but happened to play longer, and on better teams. And because of Boggs playing a tougher defensive position, and winning 2 Gold Gloves at it, he gets the nod for me.

So in summary, on his accomplishments on the field, Rose is an OK, but unspectacular HOFer. But factoring in the off the field stuff, which the HOF allows for, Rose clearly loses out, based on his own doing and no fault but his own. Hope this answers your questions.

[rainout]

^ Very well, thank you.

The two issues as I see it are whether he deserves to be in based on what he did as a player and whether he deserves to be kept out because he broke the gambling rules.

[ADunn44]

So you would take Rose over Cobb? And since when does Rose have integrity or character? He would sell out his team to make money. Who's to say that he wouldn't do worse if it was for his own personal gain? The guy has proven time and time again that all he cares about is himself.

He agreed to the lifetime ban in exchange for not having to admit gambling. He knew what that entailed. He chose not to be in the HOF by this action. He wants to have both things and in this case he can't have them.

Yes, Yes i would, Cobb tried to kill people on the field with his dirty play, sharpening his spikes on opponents dugout, sliding cleats first into someones chest

[rainout]

Rose did f--- up Ray Fosse in an exhibition game. Not very nice.

If you could have Rose and Cobb on the same team they'd probably kill each other.

Now there's somethine to bet on.

[Chisox]

It isn't two separate issues. The gambling was his choice and he chose not to be in the HOF by accepting that lifetime ban in exchange for not admitting gambling. It was his choice so he should live with it.

But as far as his accomplisments as a player, I think he has a HOF case, but not as good of one as a lot of people think. Fact is, he had a .303 average and a 118 OPS+ for his career. Those numbers are pedestrian for a HOFer with no power or speed. Offensively, he was basically a poor man's Wade Boggs who wasn't as good as Boggs during his peak but happened to play longer, and on better teams. And because of Boggs playing a tougher defensive position, and winning 2 Gold Gloves at it, he gets the nod for me.

So in summary, on his accomplishments on the field, Rose is an OK, but unspectacular HOFer. But factoring in the off the field stuff, which the HOF allows for, Rose clearly loses out, based on his own doing and no fault but his own. Hope this answers your questions.

I agree completely. Actually, I brought him up on a discussion about Julio Franco being a HOFer. If you take a look at the percentages, they are almost identical. If Julio Franco isn't a HOFer, I don't see how Pete Rose can be that much better, although I do think Rose is worthy and Franco's not. If Rose ever did make the HOF, his percentages would be nearly on the same level as defensive specialists like Aparicio, Maranville, and Smith. Would anyone call Rose a defensive specialist?

[Ubiquitous]

It isn't two separate issues. The gambling was his choice and he chose not to be in the HOF by accepting that lifetime ban in exchange for not admitting gambling. It was his choice so he should live with it.

Actually Rose did not choose to not be in the HOF. Agree to be on the MLB permanently ineligble list with the chance to a review after a year. There was nothing in the agreement about the Hall because there cannot be. The Hall is a independant entity that was not related to MLB. It is a privately owned institution. Since Pete was not found to have committed any wrongdoing at the time of his banishment technically there was nothing that could be used against him to prevent him from entering the hall. The Hall changed their rules after Pete was banished in part to go along with MLB who has a lot of muscle when it comes to the HOF. Take a look at who actually governs the HOF and sets the rules. They are MLB owners and execs.

So to sum it up Pete agreed to nothing in regards to the hall of fame, and technically if you want the Commish probably voided the deal in the first place when he announced that Pete bet on the game of baseball. Something that they had expressly agreed on to not be stated. Bart dies, Pete gets blamed and he becomes the pariah. If Bart doesn't shoot his mouth off and then die Pete probably gets reinstated after a year or two, just like Steinbrenner.

[Ressurection of Ray Oyler]

In the end didn't the ******* make the decision for everybody else when he signed that piece of paper excluding himself from the Hall.

[Ubiquitous]

Um. . . No

[flash143817]

Actually Rose did not choose to not be in the HOF. Agree to be on the MLB permanently ineligble list with the chance to a review after a year. There was nothing in the agreement about the Hall because there cannot be. The Hall is a independant entity that was not related to MLB. It is a privately owned institution. Since Pete was not found to have committed any wrongdoing at the time of his banishment technically there was nothing that could be used against him to prevent him from entering the hall. The Hall changed their rules after Pete was banished in part to go along with MLB who has a lot of muscle when it comes to the HOF. Take a look at who actually governs the HOF and sets the rules. They are MLB owners and execs.

So to sum it up Pete agreed to nothing in regards to the hall of fame, and technically if you want the Commish probably voided the deal in the first place when he announced that Pete bet on the game of baseball. Something that they had expressly agreed on to not be stated. Bart dies, Pete gets blamed and he becomes the pariah. If Bart doesn't shoot his mouth off and then die Pete probably gets reinstated after a year or two, just like Steinbrenner.

It was my understanding that Rose agreed to his banishment in exchange for not having to admit wrongdoing. And hasn't Rose's case been reviewed at least once since then by some arbitrator and they chose to keep him banished?

And with all the evidence supporting the assertion that Rose has gambled, why should we even consider voting him into the HOF until someone like Joe Jackson is voted in. I don't support the candidacy of either of those two, but I certainly think Jackson should be in before Rose. Now that we have established that they both were involved in gambling schemes, they are even on that level. That being said, if one is to get past that, which I choose not to, they have to consider their accomplishments on the field, which places Jackson far ahead of Rose as a player, and he isn't in the HOF.

[Ubiquitous]

The commissioner has continued to either turn down his plea for a review or has rejected it altogether. Pete Rose agreed to the banishment from baseball, but again he did not agree to a banishment from the hall. The hall decided to banish him themselves by linking the eligibility to the hall to the MLB eligiblity. Nothing wrong with that, it is their right as a private organization to set the rules however they want. But there is no truth to anyone saying that Pete Rose agreed to be banished from the hall.

[runningshoes]

A guy gets over 3200 hits and 700 doubles and someone is mentioning his home run total in a bad light? I don't care how many at-bats Rose had, the fact remains: He had them.

And there are too many what ifs and if onlys going in the minds of some fans.

If I only I hadn't eaten those beans for lunch, I wouldn't have forced the evacuation of that elevator this morning.

[flash143817]

The commissioner has continued to either turn down his plea for a review or has rejected it altogether. Pete Rose agreed to the banishment from baseball, but again he did not agree to a banishment from the hall. The hall decided to banish him themselves by linking the eligibility to the hall to the MLB eligiblity. Nothing wrong with that, it is their right as a private organization to set the rules however they want. But there is no truth to anyone saying that Pete Rose agreed to be banished from the hall.

I guess I was slightly off in my understanding of his banishment and the circumstances surrounding it. Doesn't change my opinion of him though. He still chose his own repututation over the game that gave him everything, even if he didn't know it would lead to HOF banishment. And his half-assed admission of gambling has hardly done anything to help him. I personally think his on field accomplishments place him in the lower half of the HOF anyway. And considering his off field problems, he should be omitted completely.

[sschirmer]

The commissioner has continued to either turn down his plea for a review or has rejected it altogether. Pete Rose agreed to the banishment from baseball, but again he did not agree to a banishment from the hall. The hall decided to banish him themselves by linking the eligibility to the hall to the MLB eligiblity. Nothing wrong with that, it is their right as a private organization to set the rules however they want. But there is no truth to anyone saying that Pete Rose agreed to be banished from the hall.

I don't entirely agree with this. Given the precedent set by the Hall in previous circumstances, I think Mr. Rose knew good and well that he wasn't going to get into the HOF, so long as he remained on the banned list.

[Ubiquitous]

Well Rose even on the banned list and even after the Hall banned him too recieved votes. Pete porbably thought that with his numbers and his stature that their was no way they could keep him out of the hall or out of baseball.

[moviegeekjan]

It's been made clear numerous times on this board, Pete broke the one rule you can't break, he knew what would happen if he did, and he didn't care. Then he lies about it for 15 years, and apologizes in a book to make money. What kind of person behaves like that?

Pete will never get in during his lifetime, and he only needs to look into the mirror to know whom to blame.

Exactly

Besides, Rose already IS recognized within the HOF. It's a museum, and there are a number of Rose mementos on display. And that is as it should be.

He gets no plaque, and THAT is as it should be.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Well Rose even on the banned list and even after the Hall banned him too recieved votes. Pete porbably thought that with his numbers and his stature that their was no way they could keep him out of the hall or out of baseball.

The amount of votes Rose has received n a year-to-year basis would not keep him on the ballot if he were eligible.
If that is what Rose thought, he obviously was wrong. He is not above baseball's rules, or baseball, or the Baseball Hall of Fame.