do you think pete rose should be in the hall of fame?

[bluezebra]

To Whom This May Concern:

I'm really sick of hearing excuses for keeping Pete Rose out of the Hall of Fame. Okay, he's beneath dignity, low life, Etc. - The HOF didn't do themselves justice by creating the Pete Rose Ban which was designed to keep Mr. Rose out...period.

Of course, being so "honorable," they stated it was a coincidence of sorts that this vote to keep banned players would come out early the same year that Mr. Rose's name was supposed to be brought up for a vote. Spare me with Baseball's integrity.

I seem to remember that Judge Landis, MLB's First Commissioner, who banned the White Sox players, was a racist who helped keep Black Americans out of the MLB. Only after the man's death did Jackie Robinson get his chance to make it to the Majors.

Yes, Mr. Rose was stupid, and he broke the rules - he has himself to blame. Still, if you're going to keep the man out of MLB, at least allow him the plaque he earned with his hits and his hustle. It's a JOKE that the man with a
.303 lifetime batting average, 4,256 hits, and 17 other records is denied a place alongside his peers...because of a few bitter old ballplayers and a deceitful HOF.

If you don't like the man, support his going into the Hall of Fame, AND keep him out of today's MLB. That should satisfy both parties. Just be done with it!

What do you think???

Regards,

CAREY
U.S. ARMY

Stick to soldiering, because you don't know the rules for induction into the HoF.

The HOF didn't do themselves justice by creating the Pete Rose Ban which was designed to keep Mr. Rose out...period.


The Hall didn't create the 'Pete Rose Ban', Rose did.

3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:
E..Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

[bluezebra]

To Whom This May Concern:

I'm really sick of hearing excuses for keeping Pete Rose out of the Hall of Fame. Okay, he's beneath dignity, low life, Etc. - The HOF didn't do themselves justice by creating the Pete Rose Ban which was designed to keep Mr. Rose out...period.

Of course, being so "honorable," they stated it was a coincidence of sorts that this vote to keep banned players would come out early the same year that Mr. Rose's name was supposed to be brought up for a vote. Spare me with Baseball's integrity.

I seem to remember that Judge Landis, MLB's First Commissioner, who banned the White Sox players, was a racist who helped keep Black Americans out of the MLB. Only after the man's death did Jackie Robinson get his chance to make it to the Majors.

Yes, Mr. Rose was stupid, and he broke the rules - he has himself to blame. Still, if you're going to keep the man out of MLB, at least allow him the plaque he earned with his hits and his hustle. It's a JOKE that the man with a
.303 lifetime batting average, 4,256 hits, and 17 other records is denied a place alongside his peers...because of a few bitter old ballplayers and a deceitful HOF.

If you don't like the man, support his going into the Hall of Fame, AND keep him out of today's MLB. That should satisfy both parties. Just be done with it!

What do you think???

Regards,

CAREY
U.S. ARMY

Stick to soldiering, because you don't know the rules for induction into the HoF.

The HOF didn't do themselves justice by creating the Pete Rose Ban which was designed to keep Mr. Rose out...period.


The Hall didn't create the 'Pete Rose Ban', Rose did.

3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:
E..Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.


Bob

[Sliding Billy]

Another writer adds: "I don't understand: He's unfit to participate in MLB at all but deserves its highest honor?" Well, the Hall of Fame AND MLB are supposed to be seperate. A HOF official, well-placed, proudly stated that MLB does NOT have say-so or any dictatorial power over the HOF...Right. The Rose Ban was a Conspiracy, plain and simple, and I'm NOT one of those who tend to believe in Conspiracies.

That's me again. Let me rephrase my incomprehension: "I don't understand: he's unfit to participate in MLB at all, but deserves the highest honor accorded to MLB players?" This was a position you suggested for the Rose opposition, so you can't really expect those of us who can't understand it to embrace it.

By and large, I don't care who goes into the Hall of Fame and who doesn't. It doesn't add an inch to the stature of George Kelly that he's in, or subtract one from Ron Santo that he's out. They did what they did. The balloting is an interesting weather vane of BBWA opinion, but that's about it. The only time it makes a difference to me is in a case like Rose or Joe Jackson. They did what they did, too.

He was selling you out while you were pulling for him, Chaplain14, and that's what makes me sick.

[Wade8813]

What criteria did Cobb fail?

Integrity, sportsmanship, and character. (BTW - criterion is the right word there according to dictionary.com)

The guy went all out, trying to win games at all costs, so sportsmanship is not a problem.

Sportsmanship - n. Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Integrity, sportsmanship, and character. (BTW - criterion is the right word there according to dictionary.com)


Sportsmanship - n. Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing.

So how was Cobb any more unsportsmanlike than anyone else? There were a lot of so-called rowdies. Cobb simply exclled at a far greater rate. If sliding with his spikes up is an unpardonable crime, then, well, sheesh.
How was he a bad loser?
How did he not have a striving spirit?
Again, well overstated and ignoring the times. The 1894 Baltimore Orioles were notorious for their poor conduct. But tso many are in, including John McGraw. Cobb gets a very unfair rap.

[bluezebra]

Problem with the Ty Cobb racist argument is that he was inducted during a time when racism was more or less accepted; they had no reason to keep him out because of that.

That said, according to the rules of the HoF, Cobb shouldn't have made it either.

Follow that rule, and the Hall of Fame would be an almost empty building.

Bob

[bluezebra]

Tell me something, Chaplain Carey, U S Army, how does the United States Army handle soldiers who constantly break the rules, and lie under oath? Present them with the Medal of Honor, because they shot for a high score on the rifle range?

That's what you want for 'Charlie Hustle(r)'.

Bob

[Wade8813]

So how was Cobb any more unsportsmanlike than anyone else? There were a lot of so-called rowdies.

Again, well overstated and ignoring the times. The 1894 Baltimore Orioles were notorious for their poor conduct. But tso many are in, including John McGraw. Cobb gets a very unfair rap.

Just because others are bad doesn't make Cobb any better. That's like saying Ted Bundy isn't so bad because Gary Ridgeway killed more people. That's nonsense.

Follow that rule, and the Hall of Fame would be an almost empty building.

So, maybe the Hall should change their rules?

Tell me something, Chaplain Carey, U S Army, how does the United States Army handle soldiers who constantly break the rules, and lie under oath? Present them with the Medal of Honor, because they shot for a high score on the rifle range?

That's what you want for 'Charlie Hustle(r)'.

Actually, as a paralegal in the Army JAG Corp, I'll answer this. The Army often overlooks people breaking the rules, or gives as light a punishment as possible (although they do have to do something about the lying under oath - that's a little too big, and too public, etc). The reasoning for this includes the fact that the Army is low on the number of soldiers, so they want to keep them in as much as is reasonable, and also it's often more expensive in time, effort, and money to punish the person than it's really worth (in some people's opinion).

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I support inducting Rose into the HOF based on his PLAYING CAREER accomplishments. I do not support him being allowed back into baseball in any way, shape, or form.

The Cobb stuff really needs to stop imo. One non-respected poster brings his name up and all of a sudden Cobb is a topic? You could add up the drive, determination, and heart of all 25 men on a team today and it might equal what Cobb had inside of him, day in and day out, imo. He could dish it very well, but more importantly, he could take it also.

[runningshoes]

Yep cobb was a jerk and was not liked by most if not all players, but he also never broke on of the most basic rules of the game

We dont really know that for sure.

[Skin & Bones]

Ty Cobb was not that horrible of a person. So he was rasist, that is a product of his time. Im sure many other HoFers of that time were also rasist. Cobb also became much more accepting in his later years. And when rasism is talked about everyone always seems to point the finger to Cobb, but not as much at Cap Anson who essentially built the color barier. Ty fought to raise mlb players salarys too. And Cobb killing a man is a myth. I read that he was jumped by two men and he fought them off. Cobb also played agresivley(or mean) because he had a drive and desire to win. There is nothing wrong with that and ones personality should not keep them out of the HoF. It would be a complete and total farce if possibily the best player to ever play the game is thrown out because of his beliefs and or personality.

So he was rasist, that is a product of his time.

This has to absolutely be the worst arguement I've ever seen to defend Cobb. It would be like excusing Bonds behavior because steroid use was rampant among the league too.

[Goooooo]

Yep cobb was a jerk and was not liked by most if not all players, but he also never broke on of the most basic rules of the game (and please do not give me the spiking is the same as betting on baseball). As for the killing a man, I assume you are referring to the man that cobb said he killed after the man attacked him, but you may want to check the facts of the story. No body was ever found matching the description Cobb gave. Odds ae Cobb was exagerating what happened. Maybe there is another man Cobb killed that I am unaware of.

Cobb was scum. there's evidence that he threw games and killed a man. He's a joke, everything about the man was evil. Rose bet on games, who cares, there's no proof he threw games. Rose numbers are remarkable. He also compiled those numbers in a fully intergrated league which even makes his numbers more impressive. Cobb's batting average and hits are questionable, numbers weren't kept good back then. Read the numbers game by alan schrawz, he does good research on this. Rose should be in as a player, im ok with banning him from managing and what not, but his numbers are legit, and he wasn't a bad guy. compared to that miscreant cobb, rose was a saint.

[RedSoxVT92]

So he was rasist, that is a product of his time.

This has to absolutely be the worst arguement I've ever seen to defend Cobb. It would be like excusing Bonds behavior because steroid use was rampant among the league too.

Now dont tell me that he wasnt influenced by his location and the time he lived in. He grew up in the south (Georgia) and everyone had biased views during this time peroid. The Civil War was only around 20 years before he was born and im sure southerners still werent too happy about losing it. I bet young Cobb heard alot of things from his family and the people around him which helped shaped his beliefs. People are formed by when and where they grow up in. If he had been born in a diffrent time peroid he may have had diffrent views. So it is true in most people are product of their time.

[Skin & Bones]

Now dont tell me that he wasnt influenced by his location and the time he lived in. He grew up in the south (Georgia) and everyone had biased views during this time peroid. The Civil War was only around 20 years before he was born and im sure southerners still werent too happy about losing it. I bet young Cobb heard alot of things from his family and the people around him which helped shaped his beliefs. People are formed by when and where they grow up in. If he had been born in a diffrent time peroid he may have had diffrent views. So it is true in most people are product of their time.

Ok, then Barry Bonds is excused because during his time roiders were everywhere. He did no wrong.

Sorry, but I don't buy that. Cobb's indeed a HOF player based on the numbers, but his personality was crappy, that's no way to argue against it.

[RedSoxVT92]

Ok, then Barry Bonds is excused because during his time roiders were everywhere. He did no wrong.

Sorry, but I don't buy that. Cobb's indeed a HOF player based on the numbers, but his personality was crappy, that's no way to argue against it.

Taking steroids and ones beliefs is a completley different thing. Taking steroids is like doing something you know you shouldnt be doing.

Your beliefs is something you think is right (it may be wrong) but its not illegal or something you know you shouldnt be doing.

[Skin & Bones]

Taking steroids and ones beliefs is a completley different thing. Taking steroids is like doing something you know you shouldnt be doing.

Your beliefs is something you think is right (it may be wrong) but its not illegal or something you know you shouldnt be doing.

Uh, I don't think anyone " known " they shouldn't be doing it if MLB didn't test for the crap, hell, I would of been on the stuff too if it was that easy to cheat.

Again, I'm using your logic here, excusing someone's racism because of his " environment " is not something I'm willing to buy.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The racist views of the time were ignorant and deplorable, however it had nothing to do with the field of play and it didn't give Cobb or anyone else an edge over their peers. Steroids is a choice to gain an edge over your peers to become something you otherwise would not be. No comparison between the two imo. The apologetic steroid attitude is tired.

[Skin & Bones]

The racist views of the time were ignorant and deplorable, however it had nothing to do with the field of play and it didn't give Cobb or anyone else an edge over their peers. Steroids is a choice to gain an edge over your peers to become something you otherwise would not be. No comparison between the two imo. The apologetic steroid attitude is tired.

Right, but noone was apologizing for anyone here, well, maybe except for Cobb.

And there is no comparison between the two, racism is far worse. Onfield accomplishments or not.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Right, but noone was apologizing for anyone here, well, maybe except for Cobb.

And there is no comparison between the two, racism is far worse. Onfield accomplishments or not.

Sure seemed like you were trying to draw a parallel, were you not? And in doing that, you're apologizing for it imo.

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone here who agrees with those commonly held views back then. So why judge old-timers by our standards and pretend like we haven't advanced at all. Makes you feel more comfortable and superior...so be it.

This is a baseball discussion, not a society-based racism discussion. Has no place here.

[Chaplain14]

Bob:

"Stick to soldiering, because you don't know the rules for induction into the HoF." Gee, Bob - do you have a problem with Soldiers?

"The Hall didn't create the 'Pete Rose Ban', Rose did." Wrong-o, Bob. Check out the date that the rule was established. Happened in Early 1991.
3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

E..Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate - again, Bob - new rule established in 1991 - Guess who was coming up for a Vote soon? He had his last at-bat in 1986.

I have an answer for this one, too:

Tell me something, Chaplain Carey, U S Army, how does the United States Army handle soldiers who constantly break the rules, and lie under oath? Present them with the Medal of Honor, because they shot for a high score on the rifle range? Got an answer for that one, too. Actually, I know a Soldier who was caught stealing from another Soldier. He's being dishonorably discharged, and he's paid the Soldier back. He's served time in a Military Jail, Etc. He will NOT be allowed back in the Army, but he keeps his medals, to include 2 PURPLE HEARTS he earned from wounds in Iraq. Of course, if our Unit was preparing to go back to Iraq or Afghanistan, that Soldier would have been given another chance to right his wrongs, would have been retained, and, I believe, would still be Soldiering today. I do believe he learned his lesson - guess I'm just the gullible one.

PLEASE Note: I did NOT say put Mr. Rose back in the graces of MLB, or give him a job. I said that Mr. Rose should be in the HOF, who dishonored themselves by creating a Rule to keep him OUT.

There's another gentlemen who mentioned rogues, Etc., who says he was misunderstood. Thank you, Sir. Sorry for responding so quickly, and I understand better now.

Folks, I know Pete Rose has been a LOUSY father and husband in the past. I hope he's learned from past mistakes - idiotic and unfeeling, though they were. I KNOW that Rose did himself and his fans wrong - his fans are cheated of his not being in the HOF, and he's cheated himself out of several millions of dollars - he remains punished. Okay, he deserves that - he was WRONG. I'm not saying "Whitewash" the man, for crying out loud...

At any rate, it's just wrong to not recognize what he did ON the field - I agree with Bob Costas - recognize him, and you can include the wrong doing on his plaque. But DON'T act as if he didn't have a Positive impact on the game as well. Stop paying homage and praise to the Gods of Giamatti and Vincent (let's not forget Dowd), and just recognize Mr. Rose with the plaque, keep him banned, and be DONE with it.

Oh, yes - Mr. Bob Feller was for recognizing and reinstating Shoeless Joe Jackson in MLB, too - no doubt followed by being inducted to the HOF. This was a rallying point for Ted Williams as well. All this kind of went away when the subject of Rose being reinstated started. Yes, of course, Mr. Feller doesn't have any strong feeling against Pete Rose, right?

Don't you find it a little hypocritical that former players, teamates have such strong opinions AGAINST Rose even today, but are such "buddies" towards the man at Autograph sessions? May our Honorable HOF never have to be sullied with the Devil Rose's presence on a plaque, praise Landis' holy name... Forgive my sarcasm, Bob.

V/R,

CAREY


__________________________________________________ ___

JASON D. GEIL/The Cincinnati Post

Tom Hanks, Ron Howard and Dennis Miller held an impromptu press conference at Great American Ball Park during Wednesday night's rain delay.

According to Tom Hanks, he and buddies Ron Howard and Dennis Miller are trying to stay "under the radar" as they barnstorm through a series of major league ballparks this week.

But they weren't about to get out of Cincinnati without offering up an opinion on whether Pete Rose should be in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

The trio held an impromptu news conference Wednesday night at Great American Ball Park while waiting out a thunderstorm that interrupted the Reds' game against the New York Mets. They're on a tour of ballparks as an extended birthday celebration for Hanks, who turned 50 on July 9, and they took about 20 minutes to address a variety of baseball-related topics.

One of the last questions was about Rose's worthiness for induction, and it brought immediate responses from all three.

"I think Pete Rose should be eligible for the Hall of Fame, I think he should be in the Hall of Fame," said Hanks. "Guess what? He was kind of a jerk for a while, but come on. If you're going to throw jerks out of your individual halls of fame, you could fit all of your Hall of Fame people in one Hall of Fame - hockey, basketball, football."

Howard, who has directed Hanks in movies such as "The Da Vinci Code," "Apollo 13" and "Splash," concurred with the actor.

"I quit going (to the Hall of Fame)," said Howard. "I had been, and at one point it dawned on me that until they at least make him eligible, it's not complete, in my mind."
Hanks recalled Rose's famous declaration that he would "walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball."

"That's a pretty good line," said Hanks.

[hubkittel]

i have a question that i've never heard addressed. how is what rose did substantially different than what paul hourning and alex karras did in the 60's. all three bet on their teams, not against them. they weren't the black soxs. all three knew it was against the rules but did it anyway. all three were banned from the game. but while hourning and karras were reinstated, rose is still banned. now hourning and karras quickly admitted what they did and apologized. it took rose 15 odd years to do the same-but he did it. hourning is now in the football hall of fame (not sure about karras, but i don't think so). i've always seen the rose situation as similiar to hourning's not to joe jackson's. i think if rose had come clean when he first got caught, he'd be in the HoF today. and just to be clear, i don't really care if rose goes in the hall or not-i'm not losing sleep either way.

[Elvis]

i have a question that i've never heard addressed. how is what rose did substantially different than what paul hourning and alex karras did in the 60's. all three bet on their teams, not against them. they weren't the black soxs. all three knew it was against the rules but did it anyway. all three were banned from the game. but while hourning and karras were reinstated, rose is still banned. now hourning and karras quickly admitted what they did and apologized. it took rose 15 odd years to do the same-but he did it. hourning is now in the football hall of fame (not sure about karras, but i don't think so). i've always seen the rose situation as similiar to hourning's not to joe jackson's. i think if rose had come clean when he first got caught, he'd be in the HoF today. and just to be clear, i don't really care if rose goes in the hall or not-i'm not losing sleep either way.

When Rose was betting on baseball he was his teams manager--those other two you mentioned were players. I think it makes a difference. Anyway that's like a kid using the argument, "but Timmy's mom letes HIM stay up late!"

Rose bet on baseball. He knew what he was doing. He knew the consiquences. He got caught. He got the consiquences. End of story. If he was just Joe Blow and was banned I don't think anyone would be starting threads to get Mr. Blow reinstated. Just because someone's talented doesn't mean they should be above the law (rules).

You bet on baseball - you get banned from baseball for life. Rose knew this and took the bet and he crapped out.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

It does make a difference that Rose was a manager, though whether he should remain barred for life after all this time is another question.

But it's known Rose WAY overused his bullpen, bringing in his best relievers far too often, and warming them up far too much in other games--something for which he was criticized at the time. Only when the gambling scandal broke did everyone learn why. He had managed every game like it was Game 7 of the World Series because he had money on those games.

As someone who once played a huge amount of poker (a long time ago), I've seen a lot of Pete Rose-types. They always lose at the end of the month, almost always at the end of the week, and frankly don't often win at the end of the night. They're hopelessly addicted and have punk attitudes. And yeah, such a gambler WOULD manage each of those games like Game 7.

Which is terrible for a baseball manager, obviously--wearing down his pitchers in mid-season. While I despise the concept of Dead Ball pitchers' "pacing" their way through games, it can't be denied that managers must pace their way through a 162-game season. Pete Rose did just the opposite, and it was directly attributable to his gambling on his own team.

THAT makes his doing it as a manager very different from somone's doing it as a player.

So.... What about SABR Matt's idea: Elect Rose the day after he dies?

BHN

[Elvis]

So.... What about SABR Matt's idea: Elect Rose the day after he dies?

BHN

Joe Jackson died a long time ago and still isn't in. Maybe Pete should die and then wait another 80 years or so...just to be fair.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

As far as we know, that's not a valid parallel. And IF Rose ever took part in throwing games--e.g., by putting a weak team out there so bookies could win on a night when they really needed the Reds to lose--then hell should freeze over before Rose gets in. But I don't know anyone who's ever heard a stitch of evidence to that effect.