Researcher/advocate/mod
Sam Rice
It's hard not to put in a guy with a .322 career average and 2987 career hits (it would have been over 3000 if he'd known), and 327 win shares
That said, he's the 18th RF in career win shares, which is good enough. He's 72d among that same group in his top three, and 54th in his top three consecutive. It's not enough.
Last edited by jalbright; 08-13-2008 at 05:17 PM.
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Researcher/advocate/mod
Orlando Cepeda
He won a MVP, was a 7 time all-star, and has the 102d most MVP shares despite fighting Willie McCovey and the stacked Giant outfield of his time with the franchise for playing time. He has the 156th most career win shares for all players and pitchers, which is definitely HOF territory. Similarly, his 41st all time finish in gray ink is safely in that territory as well.
He can add to that a nice array of finishes among the league leaders such as: in the top ten in average eight times; in the top ten in slugging percentage nine times; in the top ten in homers nine times (leading once), in the top eight in RBI nine times (leading once); and seven times in the top eight in runs created.
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Researcher/advocate/mod
Red Faber
Two of his best markers are the fact he's 39th among pitchers in career win shares and 40th in career wins. He is near HOF quality in black ink, gray ink and HOF standards (76th, 78th and 83d respectively), and can add the following finishes among the league leaders:
in the top 10 in ERA 7 times (leading twice);
in the top 10 in wins 7 times;
in the top 10 in winning percentage five times;
in the top four in strikeouts four times;
in the top seven in WHIP six times (leading twice); and
in the top ten in strikeout to walk ratio seven times.
Also, consider this Keltner list by AG2004:
Case to Consider: FABER, Urban (Red)
1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?
No.
2. Was he the best player on his team?
He led White Sox pitchers in win shares in 1920, 1921, and 1922.
3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
In both 1921 and 1922, he had more win shares than any other pitcher in major league baseball.
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
No. He was decent in 1917, with 16 win shares, but had only 6 win shares in 1919 (he had arm trouble and the flu). He had 25 win shares in 1920, when the White Sox were in the race until the end of the season. However, he did go 3-1 in the 1917 World Series with a 2.33 ERA. If there had been an MVP Award for the series back then, it probably would have gone to Faber that year.
5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?
Yes; he was still a regular in the White Sox rotation at the age of 41.
6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
No.
7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?
By similarity scores, he’s most comparable to: Burleigh Grimes, Vic Willis, Jack Quinn, Ted Lyons, Eppa Rixey, Dennis Martinez, George Mullins, Sam Jones, Tony Mullane, and Waite Hoyt. Five are in Cooperstown, but only Lyons is in the BBFHOF. However, Faber’s 118 ERA+ ties Willis’ for the highest of the bunch.
By win shares among contemporaries, we have: Eppa Rixey 315, FABER 292, Burleigh Grimes 286, Wilbur Cooper 266. Faber is actually third on the list (Alexander has 477).
However, early in 1918, Faber joined the Navy, and served as recreation director for the Great Lakes Naval Base, also pitching for the base’s team. With wartime credit, Faber would be at 300+ win shares. This is a case where a pitcher deserves wartime credit, since his military job involved playing baseball.
By win shares in the top three seasons, we have: Dazzy Vance 94, FABER 93, Carl Mays 92, Burleigh Grimes 91, Stan Coveleski 90, Smokey Joe Wood 90. Again, Faber is third among his contemporaries (Alexander is in first by a wide margin), and in solid BBFHOF territory.
By best five consecutive seasons, we have: Jim Bagby 125, Dazzy Vance 124, Burleigh Grimes 122, Dolf Luque 121, Eppa Rixey 118, FABER 118, Claude Hendrix 117, Bob Shawkey 114, Smokey Joe Wood 111. Faber is a little low here. However, if we knew how well he pitched in the Navy in 1918, he might move up a bit.
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
His black ink score is 22 (77th), his gray ink score is 161 (78th), and his HOF Standards score is 37.0 (84th). So he misses out here.
Faber is a member of both Cooperstown and the Hall of Merit. The HOM inducted Faber in his first year of eligibility.
9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
All those games for the Chicago White Sox after the Black Sox scandal lowered his W-L percentage.
10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?
No.
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
He never received a vote in the MVP voting during the 1920s. However, he was the best pitcher in baseball twice. Had there been a Cy Young award in 1921, he might have won the vote, recording the lowest ERA in the American League and going 25-15 for a team that went 62-92 overall.
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?
The 1921 and 1922 seasons were the only ones in which he finished in the top four in win shares among AL pitchers. However, he finished fifth among AL pitchers in 1920, and might have been an All-Star that year. Overall, though, three All-Star seasons is low for a pitcher.
13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?
At his best, it would be likely.
14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
Faber was the last legal spitball pitcher in the American League.
15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?
After retirement, Faber tried selling cars and real estate, but failed at both. His lack of success was attributed to his being too honest.
CONCLUSION: It’s a close call. Faber certainly has the career value. His peak is decent, and he had back-to-back seasons as the best pitcher in major league baseball. However, he had only three seasons among the best eight pitchers in his league, and that’s low.
To be fair, he may have been able to pick up another top-notch season in 1918; he had 7 win shares in 80.7 innings pitched before he joined the navy. Four good seasons at his peak, a long career, and first-ballot induction into the Hall of Merit put Faber onto my queue for the BBFHOF.
Last edited by jalbright; 10-31-2007 at 01:05 PM.
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Researcher/advocate/mod
Carl Mays
He's right inside HOF territory in career win shares among pitchers, gray ink and HOF standards (69th, 65th and 65th, respectively) and close to the mark in black ink at 74th. He also finished in the top ten in ERA six times; the top ten in winning percentage six times (leading once); in the top six in wins seven times (leading once), and the top 10 in WHIP eight times.
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Johnny Pesky
He lost three years to wartime service in his prime, and those years could easily put him in HOF territory. Look at these finishes among the league leaders for a guy playing mostly a middle infield spot: in the top eight in average five times, in the top ten in OBP six times, led the league in hits three times, and was in the top eight in runs seven times.
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Luis Aparicio
He's 184th among all pitchers and players in career win shares, which is HOF territory (and 17th among shortstops in that category). He's 111th in gray ink, was a ten time all-star and nine time Gold Glove shortstop. He also led his league in steals for nine consecutive years, and was elected to Cooperstown by the writers
Last edited by jalbright; 05-13-2006 at 09:00 AM.
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Wes Ferrell ELECTED BBF HOF
He did well in the inks, 65th in career black ink among pitchers and 68th in gray ink. Some of the more notable achievements in this regard were:
in the top ten in ERA seven times;
in the top four in wins six times (leading once);
in the top ten in winning percentage seven times;
in the top ten in strikeouts seven times;
and in complete games, he led the league four times, finished second twice and was in the top ten three more times.
I'll add this fine analysis by AG2004:
1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?
No.
2. Was he the best player on his team?
He led Cleveland pitchers in win shares each year from 1929 to 1932, and led the Red Sox pitchers in win shares in 1935.
3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
He led all major league pitchers in win shares in 1935, and, while not the AL leader, did have more win shares than any NL pitcher in 1930 and 1931. He was among the top four major league pitchers in win shares six times: 1929, 1930, 1931, 1932, 1935, and 1936.
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
No. With the exception of two years with the Yankees in which he pitched a combined 49.3 innings, his teams were always far out of first place.
5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?
No.
6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
No.
7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?
The most similar by similarity scores are Jack Stivetts, Sadie McMahon, Tommy Bridges, Jouett Meekin, Alvin Crowder, Brickyard Kennedy, Guy Bush, Lon Warneke, Elton Chamberlain, and Rick Sutcliffe. None are in the BBFHOF or Cooperstown.
In terms of Career win shares, the following are most similar among Ferrell’s contemporaries: Dazzy Vance 241, FERRELL 233, Lon Warneke 220. This is good company.
In terms of top three seasons, the following are most similar: Carl Hubbell 102, Dizzy Dean 99, FERRELL 95, Dazzy Vance 94, Lon Warneke 86. Lefty Gomez had 80, Ted Lyons 79, Red Ruffing 76, Waite Hoyt 69. Ferrell is in BBFHOF territory.
In terms of top five consecutive seasons, the following are most similar: FERRELL 129, Lon Warneke 125, Dazzy Vance 124, Red Ruffing 116. Ted Lyons had 110, Gomez 106, and Hoyt 100; Dean, however, had 145. In any case, Ferrell is in the BBFHOF range.
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
Ferrell’s black ink score is 25 (65th place), and his gray ink is at 170 (68th place), borderline at best. His HOF Standards score is a very poor 22.0 (242nd), and the HOF Monitor score is at 75.0 (149th).
He was voted into the Hall of Merit in their 1964 election, but is currently outside of Cooperstown.
9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
His pitching record does not include his performance as a hitter. He batted .280 lifetime, and holds the major league record for most home runs by a pitcher with 37. Also, with the exception of the 1932 Indians, every team Ferrell was a regular starter on was below .500 when he wasn’t on the mound. That reduced his W-L record.
10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?
No.
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
He won the Win Shares AL Pitcher of the Year award in 1935, and finished second (first among pitchers) in the actual 1935 MVP voting. He was eighth in the 1934 MVP voting (third among pitchers). Ferrell was among the top three AL pitchers in win shares in six different seasons, a good sign.
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?
He was on two All-Star teams, but the All-Star game started in the middle of his career. He had six seasons when he was among the top four pitchers in the AL in win shares, and another when he was sixth. Six or seven All-Star-type seasons is a good sign for pitchers.
13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?
If the rest of a team had decent offense, the team might have a shot. Boston had the worst OPS+ in the league in 1935, and Ferrell outhit all the regulars that season in games in which he pitched. Come to think of it, he outhit the regulars for Cleveland in 1931 as well.
14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
He holds the records for most home runs in a season by a pitcher (9) and most career home runs by a pitcher (37).
15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?
He was fined and suspended for refusing to leave a game in 1932. In 1936, he was fined for leaving a game without the manager’s permission. Cleveland also suspended him in 1934 for failing to report after the season started.
CONCLUSION: Ferrell has a good peak, but a short career. Although he’s borderline in the ink marks, his hitting makes up for that. Looking at the entire package, I would say that Ferrell belongs in the BBFHOF.
Last edited by jalbright; 12-07-2006 at 10:54 AM.
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Researcher/advocate/mod
Wilbur Cooper
He finished 64th in gray ink behind finishes like the following:
in the top eight in ERA six times (leading once);
in the top six in strikeouts five times;
in the top four in complete games seven times (leading twice); and
in the top seven in strikeout to walk ratio five times.
Also, consider this Keltner list by AG2004:
Wilbur Cooper is better than people give him credit for. I'm not sure why he's underrated; there may be two reasons.
First, there are years when Cooper drops out of the top ten in ERA+, but comes up big in complete games and innings pitched. With the state of relief pitching in Cooper's era, a team would actually benefit from high IP and CG totals. Instead of a specialized closer who could provide a great finish a lot of times, a relief pitcher would usually be someone who just wasn't that good. Using a reliever might be a step down for a team.
Second, Cooper was a fairly decent hitter; he would often bat in the number eight position during one of his starts. Pitching statistics don't account for how well a pitcher hits. However, hitting does make a difference in winning games. If we compare pitcher A to pitcher B, does it really matter if the difference between the two comes down to ten extra runs saved by pitcher A's throwing, or if it comes down to ten extra runs produced by pitcher A's offense?
ERA+ does not reflect IP, nor does it reflect offensive totals. However, the win shares method reflects both of these numbers. Thus, Wilbur Cooper comes out better by win shares than by ERA+. Addie Joss, on the other hand, comes out better by ERA+ than by win shares, since ERA+ doesn't reflect his IP totals (only two times in the top ten during his career) or his relatively poor hitting. Since I'm not sure how best to adjust ERA+ for innings pitched, and the win shares system adjusts for both quality and quantity, I generally use win shares.
Case to Consider: COOPER, Wilbur
1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?
No.
2. Was he the best player on his team?
He led Pirates pitchers in win shares each year from 1916-18 and 1920-24.
3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
No, he wasn’t. Grover Cleveland Alexander was easily the best pitcher in the NL. However, Cooper led all NL pitchers in win shares in 1922, and finished second in the NL in 1921 and 1924. His best season was 1920, with 31 win shares, but he was only third in the NL that year.
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
The Pirates finished 4 games back in 1921, and 3 back in 1924. In each of those years, Cooper was second among NL pitchers in win shares.
5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?
Not really. He was burnt out by the age of 34.
6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
No.
7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?
By similarity scores, the most comparable pitchers are Rube Marquard, Hooks Dauss, Larry French, Stan Coveleski, Don Drysdale, Dolf Luque, Milt Pappas, Jim Perry, George Mullin, and Freddie Fitzsimmons. Three are in Cooperstown, although Marquard is widely considered a mistake. Two are in the BBFHOF.
By career WS among contemporaries, we have: Eppa Rixey 315, Red Faber 292, Burleigh Grimes 286, COOPER 266, Waite Hoyt 262, Carl Mays 256, Stan Coveleski 245, Sad Sam Jones 245, Babe Adams 243, Dazzy Vance 241, Dolf Luque 241. He’s in fairly good company here.
Both the 1918 and 1919 seasons were shortened, so I adjusted Cooper’s peak shares to 154-game schedules in order to reflect this. This boosts his total in his best three seasons from 86 to 87, and his best five consecutive seasons from 133 to 140. Carl Mays’ peak totals also reflect this adjustment.
By top three seasons, we have Carl Mays 96, Dazzy Vance 94, Red Faber 93, Burleigh Grimes 91, Stan Coveleski 90, Smokey Joe Wood 90, Jim Bagby 89, Dolf Luque 89, COOPER 86, George Uhle 84, Jeff Pfeffer 84, Claude Hendrix 84, Urban Shocker 84, Hippo Vaughn 82, Bob Shawkey 81, Babe Adams 81, Rube Marquard 78, Eppa Rixey 76. Cooper is closer to those who aren’t in the BBFHOF than to those who are.
By peak five consecutive seasons, we have Mays 148, Coveleski 142, COOPER 140, Shocker 128, Vaughn 128, Vance 124, Grimes 122, Luque 121, Rixey 118, Faber 118, Shawkey 114, Wood 111. Adams 107, Uhle 106, Hoyt 100. Cooper is in a very good position here.
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
Cooper has a black ink total of 17 (118th), a gray ink total of 173 (65th), and a HOF Standards score of 33.0 (113rd). These are all low, though the gray ink isn’t terrible.
Cooper is not in Cooperstown, nor is he in the Hall of Merit.
9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
The Pittsburgh clubs he pitched for were generally bad to mediocre, thus affecting his W-L record. Also, Cooper was a good hitter for a pitcher; he would usually bat eighth in the lineup in games he started. His hitting does not affect his pitching statistics, but it is reflected in his win share totals.
10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?
No.
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
Neither the MVP nor the Cy Young was around when Cooper played. However, Cooper did have more win shares than any other NL pitcher in 1922, and was second in the NL in 1921 and 1924. He had 31 win shares in 1920, but was third among NL pitchers in win shares that year. This is good for a pitcher.
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?
Cooper retired before there was an All-Star game, but he finished in the top four among NL pitchers 6 times, and finished fifth two other times. Those eight times were in consecutive seasons (1917-1924). He was sixth among NL pitchers in 1916 as well. Eight or Nine All-Star-type seasons is good for a pitcher.
13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?
A team with someone like Cooper as its best pitcher would usually contend for the pennant during his peak years.
14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
He picked off a record seven runners at third base during the 1924 season.
15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?
As far as I know.
CONCLUSION: Going by the five consecutive years measure, Cooper has the best peak of any MLB pitcher of his era who isn’t in the BBFHOF. Also, not only does Cooper have a pretty good career win share total, he was also among the top five pitchers in his league in win shares each year for eight consecutive seasons. He was among the top six in the NL each year for nine consecutive seasons. Someone who would make an All-Star team year-in and year-out is usually a Hall of Famer. I have to conclude that Cooper is worthy of the BBFHOF.
Last edited by jalbright; 10-31-2007 at 01:07 PM.
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Researcher/advocate/mod
Ken Boyer
He won a MVP, was a seven time all-star and won five Gold Gloves at third base. He's 18th among third basemen in career win shares, and 13th in that group in best five consecutive seasons in win shares. He's also 110th in gray ink. Among his more notable achievements in being amont the league leaders are being in the top eight in RBI seven times, and the top eight in runs created seven times.
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Researcher/advocate/mod
Joe Kelley
He averaged 26.95 win shares per 162 games, which is solid all-star level over the course of a career lasting 13.02 full seasons. He's 151st in gray ink and 66th among position players in HOF standards. He had a career .317 average and a career .402 OBP.
Among his more notable placements among the league leaders were the following: six times in the top ten in OBP, seven times in the top ten in slugging percentage, six times in the top ten in RBI, and seven times in the top ten in runs created. I'll add another of AG2004's fine Keltner List analyses:
Originally Posted by AG2004
Last edited by jalbright; 05-18-2007 at 01:31 PM.
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George Gore
He averaged 30.91 win shares per 162 games over a career lasting 11.66 full seasons. That means he averaged being a MVP caliber candidate over his career. That win shares per 162 games is also good for sixth place among center fielders. He is 111th all time in black ink and 141st all time in gray ink, both of which are in HOF territory.
His list of performances among the league leaders is impressive:
in the top seven in average five times, leading once;
in the top seven in OBP ten times, leading once;
in the top ten in slugging percentage seven times, leading once;
in the top seven in runs scored nine times, leading twice;
in the top six in runs created five times, leading once; and
in the top six in walks eight times, leading three times.
He is the STATS, Inc NL MVP of 1880, leading the league in average, on base percentage, and slugging percentage for the pennant winners. He was a key contributor to six pennant winner and had a career offensive winning percentage of .690.
Here's a fine analysis by AG2004:
Note: Seasons up to 1889 are adjusted to 140 games; seasons from 1890 on are adjusted to 154 games.
1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?
I don’t know. He did lead all major league position players in win shares in 1880 and 1885, though.
2. Was he the best player on his team?
He led all Chicago position players in win shares in 1880, 1883, and 1885. He was one of the three offensive stars for Chicago during that period, the other two being Cap Anson and King Kelly.
3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
He was the top OF in baseball in win shares in 1880, 1883, and 1885, and led baseball’s center fielders in 1881 and 1886 as well. He was among the top three OF in baseball each of those seasons, as well as in 1882. (In 1886, we are adjusting for schedule length; the NL had a 126-game season, but the AA had a 140-game season.)
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
Gore had 17 win shares in 1882 (28 win shares per 140 games), when Chicago won the pennant by 3 games. He had 30 win shares (38 per 140 games) when Chicago won the title by 2 games in 1885. He had 26 raw WS in 1886 (Chicago won by 2 games) and 32 in 1889 (New York won by 1 game). So Gore had a large impact on several pennant races.
5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?
For a couple of seasons, yes.
6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
No.
7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?
By similarity scores: Mike Griffin, Chick Stahl, Dom DiMaggio, Buddy Lewis, Pete Fox, Ginger Beaumont, Jo-Jo Moore, Kip Selbach, Duff Cooley, Jack Tobin. None are in Cooperstown; none are in the BBFHOF. However, none of the ten have an OPS+ above 123; Gore has a career OPS+ of 136.
Adjusted career WS, contemporary CF: Paul Hines 364, Jimmy Ryan 341, Hugh Duffy 325, George Gore 322, Dummy Hoy 275. Gore is in the region of serious contenders. Later CF with around 322 win shares include Max Carey 351, Richie Ashburn 329, Willie Davis 322, Vada Pinson 321, Edd Roush 314, Jimmy Wynn 305, and Al Oliver 305. This isn’t necessarily BBFHOF territory, although there are several members with career marks between 280 and 300.
Adjusted best three seasons, 1800s CF: Billy Hamilton 110, GORE 109, Paul Hines 107, Hugh Duffy 103. This is BBFHOF territory for Gore. Later players with around 109 win shares in their peaks include Joe DiMaggio 114, Duke Snider 112, Jimmy Wynn 100, and Wally Berger 100. Gore remains in BBFHOF territory.
Adjusted best five consecutive seasons: Paul Hines 161, Hugh Duffy 161, GORE 146, Pete Browning 143, Jimmy Ryan 135, George Van Haltren 135. Later CFs with peaks around 146 win shares include Larry Doby 152, Wally Berger 152, Dale Murphy 150, Earl Averill 143, Jimmy Wynn 141, and Cesar Cedeno 140. This is very good company.
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
Gore’s black ink mark of 19 is 112th overall, a good sign. He’s a little weak in gray ink, at 125 (143rd overall). His HOF Standards Score of 30.9 ranks him at number 267, which is really low. However, short seasons did contribute to the low score.
Gore also won 7 Win Shares Gold Gloves. While not a member of Cooperstown, Gore was a member of the very first class of the Hall of Merit. Furthermore, Gore is a member of the BBF Timeline HOF.
9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
Gore played in a top hitter’s park during the early 1880s, which inflates his offensive numbers. However, he was also an exceptional defensive player, which isn’t recorded in his offensive stats.
10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?
I might go with Hugh Duffy instead, but there’s a case for Gore being the best MLB CF outside the BBFHOF.
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
There was no MVP award in Gore’s era, but he led all NL position players in win shares twice. He had three seasons which project to 30+ win shares.
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?
There was no such competition in Gore’s day. However, he had ten seasons which project to 20+ win shares. That’s very good for a Hall of Famer.
13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?
Yes, it would be likely.
14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
Not that I know of.
15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?
Allegedly, Chicago released Gore after the 1886 season because he caroused too much. But that’s the only mark I could find on Gore’s record, and his behavior doesn’t seem to have caused any trouble elsewhere. So I think he upheld the standards.
CONCLUSION: Gore is more than worthy of induction into the BBFHOF.
Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-22-2007 at 11:18 AM.
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The hard cases from the MLB in the 20th century and later
Darrell Evans
His key plusses are that he is 73d among all players all time in career win shares and 16th among third basemen in the top three seasons in win shares.
Tommy Leach
His key plus is that his career win share total is 117th all time among all players.
Rabbit Maranville
He's got more going for him than you'd think. His win share total is 167th best all time among all players, largely because he had a well deserved reputation as a glove man (the exact same defensive win shares per 1000 innings as Ozzie Smith, though Ozzie played 2600 more defensive innings). He is also 76th in career MVP shares and his black ink plus gray ink total is over the cutoff I use for the HOF for shortstops. These reasons were enough to induce the BBWAA to vote him in, and my beefs with that group are almost exclusively over who they didn't vote in, not who they did.
Lou Whitaker
His career win share total is 88th best all time among all players, and he finishes 120th all time in HOF standards as well.
Joe Sewell
His best HOF qualification is his 106th finish in HOF standards. But he meets or at least gets very close to HOF territory in most other areas I consider. His career win share total is very near the edge of HOF territory for shortstops, his black ink plus gray ink is over the cutoff I use for shortstops, and his best five consecutive years in win shares are also right at the edge of the cutoff.
Last edited by jalbright; 01-16-2008 at 01:28 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
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Researcher/advocate/mod
Bob Caruthers
He's a tough case, because he's another top performer when he was in there. Unfortunately, he only played ten seasons total, and only pitched in nine. Really, he was part time in two of those nine seasons of pitching. He was a good hitter, but played less than 400 games in the field. He wound up with a little over 2800 innings, which is good, but not fantastic. If he'd played more, I'd probably support him, but he didn't, so I probably won't. He has won induction into the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit".
Last edited by jalbright; 11-30-2006 at 01:27 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
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Researcher/advocate/mod
I agree that there are difficulties with any single one of these measures I use in evaluating players. But IMO, when I look at all of them, I happen to think I get a fairly good picture of the player. The inks aren't park adjusted--but they 1) capture league leaderships (aren't great players supposed to be among the best?), 2) which helps explain how the players are perceived. Yes, juicing may have poisoned the inks to some degree, but, as I've discussed elsewhere, I'm only willing to tar those we have solid evidence on with the stigma of juicing. Right now, that means Canseco, Caminiti, Barry Bonds and Palmeiro and that's it. If more solid evidence is turned up on others, I'll add them to the list, and maybe then some guys will get a second look. Until then, giving certain individuals a break on this ground invites a witch hunt--who can we tar with juicing to boost my favorite candidate?--that I want no part of.
MVP and all-star votes are subject to the vagaries of opinion and the like--but if one ignores the perceptions of those who actually saw the guy play, one is open to the criticism of ignoring the intangibles, etc, etc. There is valuable information in those opinions, so I at least consider that information. For starters, aren't HOFers supposed to be all-stars and MVP candidates?
You may have a distaste for win shares or other statistical measures. I don't. They aren't perfect, but IMO they help summarize a lot of information about players in a useful way. Others have their own ways of looking at these questions, and I am certain that if everyone enumerated his or her way of doing things, others could find flaws in those approaches as well. We could repeat that process for every person who actually considers these issues--but we'd never get anywhere that way. I'd prefer to see where our approaches agree and where they disagree, and when we disagree, to respectfully discuss the reasons for that disagreement.
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Another post questioned the validity of the use of gray ink because Babe Ruth is seventh in that category. I responded:
As for Babe Ruth and gray ink, a key issue is Babe is 7th among hitters--and 73rd among pitchers (nearly HOF territory itself). Remember, Babe would not have been competitive in terms of league leaderships during most of the seasons he was primarily a pitcher because he played so many fewer games. That doesn't invalidate the stat beyond such a unique circumstance.
I would note the fact Babe was only an all-star two times--but I also know that was because the all-star game didn't start until late in his career. It may invalidate the use of the stat for Babe Ruth, but it doesn't invalidate it for everyone who has had that opportunity every season of his career.
Babe also doesn't have nearly as many MVP shares as one might expect, because the award was only given sporadically until late in his career. That doesn't invalidate the stat for everyone, especially if the award was given every season of their careers.
The bottom line is, yes, care must be used not to use stats (or projections) blindly--but that doesn't invalidate their use. The question is, does the evidence I consider and the care with which I consider it result in sound evaluations? I think my track record is at least solid in answer to that vital question.
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Another post on the evaluation process:
I agree that I'd rather have a guy with a few less gray ink points but more black ink points over a guy whose gray ink comes largely from finishing 8th, 9th and 10th.
It's all a balancing act. I have about nine balls I try to keep in the air [wartime service and other exclusions from the majors (Negro Leagues, Japan, etc) being lumped into one category]. Most of the time, the categories which are usable (see the comment about inks, MVP shares and all-star games vis-a-vis Ruth for examples of data which may not be usable or at least which should be used with caution) largely point in the same direction. Those cases are fairly easy.
It's when they split fairly evenly that it gets dicey. One thing I try to do is to treat the measures like water to fill a swimming pool. If I've got enough points or gallons to fill the pool, I need to be convinced the guy shouldn't go in. If he doesn't have enough, I need to be convinced the guy should go in. Also, the further the guy is from the borderline mark, the more proof I need to take the position opposite from what the sum of the numbers says. Really, though, that's largely a way of 1) weighting the data sources and 2) saying that if you're really good in one category, especially an important one, you can compensate for weaknesses in other(s), especially less important ones. Once you get down to this level of analysis, I might dig into home/road splits if there's a hint that a park is a big help or hindrance to the guy in question. At this level, that's where good old fashioned subjective judgment kicks in more than just by the design of the decision making process.
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AG2004 made the following valuable contribution, and I've included my response.
Actually, baseball-reference.com lists no award in 1930 in either league, and the NL had no award in 1922 or 1923. I didn't recall about that rule in the 20's, but I did correctly recall there was something fishy there. Anyway, for guys whose careers had high quality years before 1931, you've got to be careful with MVP shares.
Last edited by jalbright; 05-22-2006 at 10:43 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
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Researcher/advocate/mod
I was going through some of my stuff this weekend, and came across this comment which is IMO quite applicable not only to Japanese baseball, but also the Negro Leagues and 19th century baseball as well:
Before discussing any further what the average quality of play in the Central League in Oh’s time was, there is a crucial point that must be made. The average quality of opposition is only relevant to help assess the quality of Oh’s play. This point cannot be overstressed, because there is a suggestive, intuitive, and yet seriously flawed logic which operates in situations where a player played in a league described as having less than 20th century major league quality of play on average. The logic I refer to runs something like this: 1) “less than 20th century major league quality on average” means minor league, 2) therefore, a star in such a league is a minor league star, and 3) minor league stars do not make the Hall of Fame.
The problem with this logic is when it is applied to leagues such as Japan or the Negro Leagues is that there was no major league calling up the best players to play in the majors, thereby skimming the cream of the crop. Both the Negro Leagues and Japan (until recently), no matter the exact quality of play, were the pinnacle of competition the players in those leagues could reasonably aspire to compete in. The stars of the Negro Leaguers were almost invariably major league quality players, and often even Hall of Fame quality. Perhaps the Japanese stars are not as frequently of Hall of Fame quality, but their stars are of major league quality as well. In each case, the stars of those leagues were denied the opportunity to perform on a major league stage through no fault of their own. In short, the average quality of such a league cannot be used as a shorthand method for evaluating players.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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Another way to look at Negro League players to determine who the best were is actually simple: who were the draws? Satchel Paige drew fans, Josh Gibson drew fans, Louis Santop drew fans. This is why, though I can't evaluate him well, I take a guy like Will Jackman seriously. Jackman barnstormed around and made a living because people came to see him pitch. I know the fans aren't always right, but they knew a lot about these guys you and I will never know, so you will do well to respect the accomplishment of being a guy who helped draw crowds.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Time to put up some Negro League poll results:
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The first was the Pittsburgh Courier (an Afro-American Newspaper) poll of its fans in 1952, transcribed by Bill Burgess:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------First team: (1B) Buck Leonard, (2B) Jackie Robinson, (SS) Pop Lloyd, (3B) Oliver Marcelle, (OF) Monte Irvin, (OF) Oscar Charleston, (OF) Cristobel Torriente, (C) Josh Gibson, (C) Biz Mackey, (P) Joe Williams, (P) Satchel Paige, (P) Bullet Rogan, (P) John Dondaldson, (P) Bill Foster, (Utility) Martin Dihigo, (Utility) Sam Bankhead, (Mgr) Rube Foster, (Coach) Dizzy Dismukes, (Coach) Danny McClellan.
Second Team: (1B) Ben Taylor, (2B) Bingo DeMoss, (SS) Willie Wells, (3B) Judy Johnson, (OF) Pete Hill, (OF) Cool Papa Bell, (OF) Chino Smith, (C) Roy Campanella, (C) Bruce Petway, (P) Dave Brown, (P) Dick Redding, (P) Nip Winters, (P) Dizzy Dismukes, (P) Don Newcombe, (Utility) John Beckwith, (Utility) Newt Allen, (Mgr) Cum Posey, (Coach) C.I. Taylor, (Coach) Dave Malarcher.
Third Team: (1B) Jud Wilson, (2B) Bill Monroe, (SS) Dick Lundy, (3B) Jud Wilson, (OF) Rap Dixon, (OF) Larry Doby, (OF) Fats Jenkins, (C) Double Duty Radcliffe, (C) Louis Santop, (P) Slim Jones, (P) Bill Holland, (P) Phil Cockrell, (P) Webster McDonald, (P) Bill Byrd, (Utility) Emmett Bowman, (Utility) Dick Wallace, (Mgr) Ed Bolden.
Fourth Team: (1B) Ed Douglas, (2B) George Scales, (SS) Doby Moore, (3B) Ray Dandridge, (OF) Jimmy Lyons, (OF) Mule Suttles, (OF) Spotswood Poles, (C) Frank Duncan, (C) Bill Perkins, (P) Double Duty Radcliffe, (P) Frank Wickware, (P) Danny McClellan, (P) Leon Day, (P) Bill Jackman, (Utility) Rev Cannady, (Utility) Jose Mendez, (Mgr) Vic Harris.
Fifth Team: (1B) George Carr, (2B) Bunny Downs, (SS) Pelayo Chacon, (3B) Dave Malarcher, (OF) Frank Duncan, (OF) Turkey Stearnes, (OF) Jelly Gardner, (C) Doc Wiley, (C) Speck Webster, (P) Stringbean Williams, (P) Ray Brown, (P) Rats Henderson, (P) Luis Tiant, (P) Leroy Matlock.
Others receiving votes: (1B) Leroy Grant, Mule Suttles; (2B) Nate Harris, Sammy T. Hughes, Frank Warfield, Ray Dandridge, George Wright, Harry Williams; (SS) Gerard Williams, Bobby Williams, Morton Clark; (3B) Bill Francis, Jim Taylor; (OF) Minnie Minoso, Jap Payne, Blaine Hall, Ted Strong, Ted Page, Vic Harris; (P) Jose Mendez, Laymon Yokely.
1999 SABR Poll Top 31 (place listed is among players, 31 because of question of how to deal with Rube Foster in his tie at #5) : Source: Cool Papas and Double Duties by William McNeil
1T Buck Leonard
1T Satchel Paige
3 Cool Papa Bell
4 Oscar Charleston
5T Rube Foster (a good player, but more important as a manager/executive-JA)
5T Josh Gibson
5T Pop Lloyd
8T Martin Dihigo
8T Turkey Stearnes
8T Willie Wells
11T Ray Dandridge
11T Bullet Rogan
13T Mule Suttles
13T Smokey Joe Williams
15 Judy Johnson
16 Leon Day
17 Biz Mackey
18 Willie Foster
19 Monte Irvin
20 Cristobal Torriente
21 Dick Redding
22 Louis Santop
23T Buck O'Neil
23T Jud Wilson
25 Hilton Smith
26 Dick Lundy
27 Larry Doby
28 Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe
29 Ben Taylor
30 Jose Mendez
31T Newt Allen
31T Sol White (another who received credit for his nonplaying contributions-JA)
31T John Beckwith
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1993 Poll of Members of Negro League Baseball Museum reported in Cool Papas and Double Duties by William McNeil
Catcher: Josh Gibson, Biz Mackey
Pitcher: Satchel Paige, Leon Day, Hilton Smith, Smokey Joe Williams, Bullet Joe Rogan, Ray Brown
First Base: Buck Leonard, Mule Suttles
Second Base: Piper Davis, Newt Allen
Third Base: Ray Dandridge, Judy Johnson
Shortstop: Willie Wells, Artie Wilson
Outfield: Cool Papa Bell, Willard Brown, Oscar Charleston, Sam Jethroe, Turkey Stearnes, Martin Dihigo
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Historians polled for Cool Papas and Double Duties, by William McNeil, with votes in parentheses after names (23 voting, many with multiple players at the same position):
Greatest Player in Negro League history
Oscar Charleston 7
Josh Gibson 5
Buck Leonard 2
Greatest Negro League Manager
Rube Foster 14
C. I. Taylor 5
Pitcher: Willie Foster (16), Satchel Paige (15), Smokey Joe Williams (14), Bullet Joe Rogan (11), John Donaldson (7), Leon Day (4), Nip Winters (3)
Catcher: Josh Gibson (19), Biz Mackey (16)
First Base: Buck Leonard (19), Mule Suttles (9)
Second Base: Newt Allen (8), Bingo DeMoss (8)
Third Base: Judy Johnson (13), Ray Dandridge (12)
Shortstop: Pop Lloyd (18), Willie Wells (14)
Outfield: Oscar Charleston (19), Cristobal Torriente (17), Cool Papa Bell (15), Turkey Stearnes (15), Monte Irvin (11), Pete Hill (8)
Utility: Martin Dihigo (14), John Beckwith (5)
Last edited by jalbright; 06-04-2006 at 01:14 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Experts rating players from other leagues with MLB players
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Dick Clark (Negro Leagues with MLB) source, page 176 of Cool Papas and Double Duties by Bill McNeil
1st team: Josh Gibson (C), Walter Johnson (RHP), Lefty Grove (LHP), Lou Gehrig (1B), Charlie Gehringer (2B), Honus Wagner (SS), Mike Schmidt (3B), Ted Williams (OF), Oscar Charleston (OF), Babe Ruth (OF), Martin Dihigo (UT), Rube Foster (MGR)
2nd team: Johnny Bench (C), Joe Williams (RHP), Willie Foster (LHP), Jimmie Foxx (1B), Joe Morgan (2B), Pop Lloyd (SS), Eddie Mathews (3B), Monte Irvin (OF), Willie Mays (OF), Hank Aaron (OF), Bullet Joe Rogan (UT), John McGraw (MGR)
3rd team: Mickey Cochrane (C), Satchel Paige (RHP), Warren Spahn (LHP), Buck Leonard (1B), Nap Lajoie (2B), Willie Wells (SS), Ray Dandridge (3B), Turkey Stearnes (OF), Ty Cobb (OF), Cristobal Torriente (OF), Stan Musial (UT), Bill McKechnie (MGR)
4th team: Biz Mackey (C), Pete Alexander (RHP), Sandy Koufax (LHP), Hank Greenberg (1B), Rogers Hornsby (2B), Ernie Banks (SS), Jud Wilson (3B). Al Simmons (OF), Tris Speaker (OF), Al Kaline (OF), Jackie Robinson (UT), Leon Day (UT)
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John Holway's revision of the All Century Team, p. 483 of his The Complete Book of Baseball's Negro Leagues, adding and/or moving up Negro Leagues as he deems appropriate (his Negro League choices are in blue below):
1st team: Lou Gehrig (1B), Rogers Hornsby (2B), Cal Ripken, Jr. (SS), Mike Schmidt (3B), Babe Ruth (OF), Ty Cobb (OF), Ted Williams (OF), Josh Gibson (C), John Beckwith (DH), Walter Johnson (RHP), Bullet Joe Rogan (RHP), Nolan Ryan (RHP), Warren Spahn (LHP)
2nd team: Mule Suttles (1B), Joe Morgan (2B), Honus Wagner (SS), Ray Dandridge (3B), Hank Aaron (OF), Oscar Charleston (OF), Turkey Stearnes (OF), Biz Mackey (C), Frank Robinson (DH), Satchel Paige (RHP), Christy Mathewson (RHP), Pete Alexander (RHP), Bill Foster (LHP)
3rd team: Mark McGwire (1B), Eddie Collins (2B), Pop Lloyd (SS), Brooks Robinson (3B), Willie Mays (OF), Pete Rose (OF), Ty Cobb (OF), Johnny Bench (C), Ernie Banks (DH), Bob Feller (RHP), Tom Seaver (RHP), Roger Clemens (RHP), Lefty Grove (LHP)
4th team: Jimmie Foxx (1B), Nap Lajoie (2B), Willie Wells (SS), no 4th 3B, Stan Musial (OF), Tris Speaker (OF), Mickey Mantle (OF), Yogi Berra (C), Harmon Killebrew (UT), Greg Maddux (RHP), Ray Brown (RHP), Bob Feller (RHP), Andy Cooper (LHP)
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William McNeil's "Ultimate All-World All-Star Team" from his Baseball's Other Stars (Japanese players in red, Negro Leaguers in blue)
Team #1: Josh Gibson (C), Ray Campanella (C), Walter Johnson (P), Christy Mathewson (P), Sandy Koufax (P), Satchel Paige (P), Lefty Grove (P), Smokey Joe Williams (P), Bob Feller (P), Lou Gehrig (1B), Jimmie Foxx (1B), Rogers Hornsby (2B), Charlie Gehringer (2B), Honus Wagner (SS), Pop Lloyd (SS), Brooks Robinson (3B), Ray Dandridge (3B), Babe Ruth (OF), Joe DiMaggio (OF), Ted Williams (OF), Willie Mays (OF), Joe Jackson (OF), Ty Cobb (OF), Martin Dihigo (UT), Oscar Charleston (UT)
Team #2: Johnny Bench (C), Katsuya Nomura (C), Bullet Joe Rogan (P), Eddie Plank (P), Cy Young (P), Warren Spahn (P), Pete Alexander (P), Jose Mendez (P), Masaichi Kaneda (P), Sadaharu Oh (1B), Buck Leonard (1B), Jackie Robinson (2B), Nap Lajoie (2B), Dobie Moore (SS), Luis Aparicio (SS), Mike Schmidt (3B), Shigeo Nagashima (3B), Turkey Stearnes (OF), Cool Papa Bell (OF), Mickey Mantle (OF), Hank Aaron (OF), Stan Musial (OF), Cristobal Torriente (OF), Ernie Banks (UT), Willie Wells (UT)
Last edited by jalbright; 12-30-2008 at 06:18 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Expert selections of Japanese League all-time teams
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Please note all these selections come from William McNeil's fine book, Baseball's Other Stars
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William McNeil
Team #1: Katsuya Nomura (C), Koichi Tabuchi (C), Sadaharu Oh (1B), Tetsuharu Kawakami (1B), Morimichi Takagi (2B), Shigeru Chiba (2B), Yoshio Yoshida (SS), Yasumitsu Toyoda (SS), Shigeo Nagashima (3B), Futoshi Nakanishi (3B), Isao Harimoto (OF), Koji Yamamoto (OF), Hiromitsu Ochiai (OF) [/[I have no idea why he did this other than to get Ochiai on the team, because the official Japanese encyclopedia shows Ochiai played 1B, 3B, 2B and DH--and that's it--JA], Hiroshi Oshita (OF), Yutaka Fukumoto (OF), Hiromitsu Kadota (OF), Tstomu Wakamatsu (UT), Sachio Kinugasa (UT), Masaichi Kaneda (P), Tetsuya Yoneda (P), Keishi Suzuki (P), Victor Starffin (P), Kazuhisa Inao (P), Takehiko Bessho (P), and Yutaka Enatsu (P)
Team #2: Masaaki Mori (C), Takeshi Doigaki (C), Katsuo Osugi (1B), Kihachi Enomoto (1B), Yutaka Takagi (2B), Toshio Shinozuka (2B), Yoshihiko Takahashi (SS). Takehiro Ikeyama (SS), Masayuki Kakefu (3B), Fumio Fujimura (3B), Kazuhiro Yamauchi (OF), Wally Yonamine (OF), Kenichi Yazawa (OF), Masahiro Doi (OF), Yoshinori Hirose (OF), Shinichi Eto (OF), Michio Nishizawa (UT), LeRon Lee (UT), Masaaki Koyama (P), Hisashi Yamada (P), Minoru Murayama (P), Shigeru Sugishita (P), Tadashi Wakabayashi (P), Jiro Noguchi (P), Hideo Fujimoto (P)
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Dan Johnson Please note he concentrated on players retired as of the time he made his selections. He also concentrated on players with long, distinguished careers
Catcher: Katsuya Nomura, Koichi Tabuchi
First Base: Sadaharu Oh, Tetsuharu Kawakami
Second Base: Morimichi Takagi, Shigeru Chiba
Third Base: Shigeo Nagashima, Futoshi Nakanishi
Shortstop: Yoshio Yoshida, Yasumitsu Toyoda
Outfield: Isao Harimoto, Yutaka Fukumoto, Koji Yamamoto, Hiroshi Oshita, Kazuhiro Yamauchi, Wally Yonamine
Pitchers: Kazuhisa Inao, Masaichi Kaneda, Minoru Murayama, Hisashi Yamada, Yutaka Enatsu, Takehiko Bessho, Keishi Suzuki
Utility: Hiromitsu Ochiai, Sachio Kinugasa
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Japanese baseball historian Fumio Fujisawa:
Catcher: Katsuya Nomura, Masaaki Mori
First Base: Sadaharu Oh, Hiromitsu Ochiai
Second Base: Morimichi Takagi, Shigeru Chiba
Third Base: Shigeo Nagashima, Futoshi Nakanishi
Shortstop: Yoshio Yoshida, Tatsuro Hirooka
Outfield: Isao Harimoto, Koji Yamamoto, Yutaka Fukumoto, Kazuhiro Yamauchi, Tokuji Nagaike, Ichiro Suzuki
Pitchers: Masaichi Kaneda, Kazuhisa Inao, Takehiko Bessho, Shigeru Sugishita, Masaaki Koyama, Hisashi Yamada, Yutaka Enatsu
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As a bonus, we'll include McNeil's "All World All Star Team--Non Major League"
Guys from Japan will appear in red. The remainder became famous in the American Negro Leagues or in leagues in the Caribbean basin, and almost all of them had too much melanin (dark skin) for the major league color bar. Players with an asterisk (*) are his choices as starters.
Catcher: Josh Gibson*, Katsuya Nomura, Louis Santop, Koichi Tabuchi
First Base: Sadaharu Oh*, Tetsuharu Kawakami, Hector Espino, Alonzo Perry, Buck Leonard, Julian Castillo, Mule Suttles
Second Base: Martin Dihigo*, Morimichi Takagi, Bill Monroe, Sammy T. Hughes, Manuel Cueto
Shortstop: Pop Lloyd*, Yoshio Yoshida, Dobie Moore, Perucho Cepeda, Silvio Garcia, Willie Wells
Third Base: Shigeo Nagashima*, Canena Marquez, Oliver Marcelle, Ray Dandridge, Judy Johnson
Outfield: Oscar Charleston*, Cristobal Torriente*, Francisco Coimbre*, Turkey Stearnes, Bernardo Baro, Yutaka Fukumoto, Chino Smith, Koji Yamamoto, Tetelo Vargas, Cool Papa Bell, Willard Brown, Isao Harimoto, Bob Thurman, Alejandro Oms, Andres Mora
Pitcher: Satchel Paige*, Bullet Joe Rogan, Jose Mendez, Masaichi Kaneda, Dolf Luque, Alfredo Ortiz, Eusatquio Pedroso, Luis Padron, Smokey Joe Williams, Willie Foster, Dick Redding, Ramon Arano, Diomedes Olivo, Tetsuya Yoneda, Yutaka Enatsu
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If anyone wants to compare these expert Japanese picks to mine, please see this page: http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...lbright03.html
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
From page 192 of Bill James' Guide to Baseball Managers:
Stengel liked to pitch certain pitchers against certain teams. In the years 1953-1960, for example, Whitey Ford had 40 decisions against the Chicago White Sox (he was 23-17), but only 15 decisions against Detroit (he was 8-7). The Tigers had a right-handed hitting lineup led by Al Kaline, Harvey Kuenn, Ray Boone and Frank Bolling, and weren't a particularly good team. Casey preferred to go after them with somebody like Larsen, Turley or Johnny Kucks, and save Ford to pitch against Chicago. The White Sox and Indians were by far the best "other" teams in the American League over those years. Stengel did pitch Ford a good bit against the Indians, but the Indians did have many right-handed hitters (Al Rosen, Rocky Colavito, Bobby Avila, and Al Smith). While the White Sox had both more left-handed hitters and more speed.
If Ford had simply pitched in rotation, taking his spot whenever it came up, he would have had as many decisions against one team as he did against another. He had more than twice as many decisions against Chicago as he did against Detroit, close to three times as many.
In the eight years 1953-1960, Ford had 37 decisions against the best non-Yankee team in the league, usually Chicago or Cleveland. He had 31 decisions against the second-best non-Yankee team, and 26 decisions against the third-best. He had 25 or less decisions aginst the fourth-best, fifth-best, sixth-best and seventh-best teams.
Ford's record in those eight years is impressive enough on the surface; he was 124-58, a .681 winning percentage. But as good as he was, Ford (with the Yankees behind him) was really better than that. His winning percentage was depressed by the fact that he was pitching a disproportionate share of his games against the best teams in the league. . . .
After the Yankees fired Stengel, Ralph Houk put Whitey Ford in a straight four-man rotation, and let him take his turn on the schedule against whoever was due up next. Ford, who never won twenty games for Stengel, went 25-4 in 1961, then 24-7 in 1963.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
I don't think your position is racist, but, like it or not, it helps perpetuate the racism of the past by doing nothing. In large part, my answer to you and then to Sultan addressed the issues you raise, and I won't repeat myself.
But when you say there is little evidence to back up the claims of some of these guys' claims to greatness, I cannot agree. Let me take the concrete example of Josh Gibson. He certainly had a long career for a catcher, 18 years. He played 2 years in Mexico in the summer, 16 in American Negro Leagues. He also played in some winter leagues. In the American Negro Leagues, Holway's data has him leading his league in average once, and in the top five five times. Holway's data has him with the most homers in American Negro Leagues 11 times, and in the top 3 14 times. He also led in homers once in Mexico and was second another time. He was on a Negro League all-star team in nine seasons, and Holway rates him worthy of two more before that game began. Gibson certainly played for winning teams, 12 American Negro League pennant winners, 2 Mexican league pennant winners, 1 Cuban Champ, and one Puerto Rican Winter League playoff team. Gibson hit .393 in his two years in Mexico, slugged .802, and had an OBP of .495. In Puerto Rico, he averaged .355 and homered at a rate of 27 HR per 550 AB. In the sources I've consulted, the lowest American Negro League average he had for his career is .351, and his lowest rate of homers per 550 AB for his American Negro Leagues career is 38.8 homers despite playing much of his American Negro League career in a terrible home run park, Griffith Stadium in Washington, D. C. (where the Senators played). So, in his own environment, Gibson clearly hit for high average and tremendous power, not even considering he was a catcher. I'm sure someone has some record of what he did against major league pitchers, though we'd have to look at the parks this happened in for it to be very meaningful in the typical 100-200 recorded AB, and even then the small sample would lessen the value of that data. We can look at how Negro Leaguers who were Gibson's contemporaries performed in the majors (the data I've seen suggest that a Negro League home run was just as hard to come by in one place as another, but that Negro League averages were significantly higher, maybe as much as 15%. Even so, that would suggest Gibson was a career .300+ hitter with over 35 HR power per 550 AB. His Mexican walk rate suggests he had good plate discipline, so he should have been at least above average in that regard in the majors, looking at the evidence we have. Holway suggests Gibson was a MVP six times in the American Negro Leagues, while Bill James says five. Either way, a guy with that profile would be winning some MVPs if he had any talent around him, because he'd make almost any team better. Contemporary and expert opinion, even guys who were in the majors, suggests all the above conclusions as to Gibson's talent are valid. The reports of Gibson's catching prowess are positive, though they may be a bit overblown. However, given that Negro League teams bunted a lot and stole a lot, and that if a guy with Gibson's talent with the bat wasn't much defensively as a catcher, it would make a lot of sense to move him to another spot where his career would likely be longer, especially since he caught for championship teams, I think you've got to credit him with being at least a solid defensive catcher. Basically, the evidence all points to a high average, high power hitting with good plate discipline guy who is also at least a solid catcher defensively over a long career with championship teams. Sure, I'd like better data, but that's always true. But I submit the above profile based on the available evidence is certainly conservative and at least gives some basis for deeming him great. If the evidence to rank him is insufficient in your view, I can respect that, but I think you have to concede that I at least have some solid reasons for doing what I do.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
I've created an entire thread of Negro League data copied and pasted from Baseball Think Factory here: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=45199
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
There's several lists of MVPs, top position players, and top pitchers by year in the Negro Leagues in this thread: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=36139
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Maury Wills:
He's right around the edges of a HOF case, but not quite enough to suit me. Being a 5 time All Star sure doesn't disqualify him, but it isn't a great positive in HOF terms, either. Finishing 105th in all time MVP shares is good for a shortstop, but it's not an overwhelming qualification. His black ink due to the steals is excellent, and his gray ink is more than acceptable for a HOF shortstop. His HOF standards score is poor, and he's 29th among shortstops in career win shares of the shortstops listed in the BJHA. That's well short of the mark, and given that I put significant emphasis on career accomplishments, it turns out to be the kiss of death in my book. His peak win share performances are good enough, 18th in top three and 16th in best five consecutive among the BJHA shortstops. Certainly there are worse shortstops in Cooperstown, but I don't want those mistakes to be the standard. There's a case for him, just not strong enough of one IMO.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Willard Brown. ELECTED BBF HOF
You'll probably want to supplement this discussion with a review of the discussion on him at Baseball Think Factory here: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/.../willard_brown
Years played: 1935-1950 (2 years in military, 11 years in Negro League, 10 in Puerto Rican Winters)
Main position: CF (probably a LF in majors)
All Stars: six times in Negro League All Star game before 1950.
MVP: Bill James picks him twice, ESPN's Encyclopedia twice, and John Holway three times.
League Champions on: 5 in American summers, 2 in Puerto Rico
Poll results: Not on Cool Papas and Double Duties' historian's poll All Star team, Not in top 30 in SABR poll, 2d OF in Negro League Museum members' poll, apparently didn't draw votes in the Pittsburgh Courier poll
League leading performances: in American summers, in the top five in average four times, led in homers six times, and in the top four in steals four times (led twice). In Puerto Rico, he won two Triple Crowns, holds the career average (.350) and slugging percentage marks (.603) as well as the single season records for RBI and homers. He was in the top two in average in Puerto Rico four times (led three), in the top two in homers four times (led three) in the top three in hits four times (led two), led in runs twice, led in RBI four times, and led in slugging percentage twice.
Honors: Elected to Cooperstown and Baseball Think Factory's "Hall of Merit"
I was able to dig up some rather complete stats for him in Clark and Lester's Negro Leagues Book For his Negro League years, he had the following per 550 AB (from 1576 recorded AB, which excludes 1947 (no extra base hit data), and steals omit 1943 and 1949 due to lack of data)
His Puerto Rican numbers did not include steals, and I had to exclude the 1956-57 winter due to lack of extra base hit data. Per 550 AB, they are quite similar (based on 1917 recorded AB)Code:H 2B 3B HR SB avg slg 196.8 31.4 11.9 26.5 16.0 0.358 0.603
Brown missed what may have been two of his prime years to military service in WW II as well, given his performances in 1943 and 1946 for the Kansas City Monarchs and in Puerto Rico. Granted, the PRWL and Negro League weren't the majors, but they were no more than one level down when Brown played there. Those numbers are suimply excellent.Code:H 2B 3B HR avg slg 193.1 38.7 7.7 28.4 0.351 0.605
I don't think he would have come undone even drawing unusually few walks. First off, since blackball pitchers were having so much difficulty stopping him, I think they would have tried to get him to chase bad pitches even if that wasn't their usual game plan. His record doesn't demonstrate a fall off. Besides, he earned a reputation as a bad ball hitter somehow. My guess is, he was unusually good at doing so.
Last edited by jalbright; 01-18-2008 at 06:03 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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