View Poll Results: Will Andruw Jones deserve to make the HOF?

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  • Yes, he'll deserve to be in the HOF

    24 30.77%
  • No, his numbers will not merit HOF induction

    54 69.23%
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Thread: Andruw Jones in HoF?

  1. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
    He made it look easy, which unfortunately isn't as memorable as diving into the seats to catch a foul ball, or climbing the outfield wall to take away homers. But I still believe he has a chance. Brooks Robinson, Ozzie Smith, and Bill Mazeroski are in the Hall primarily because of their defense. Andruw Jones is certainly at that level.
    he is on that level. CF is a premium position and you could justify putting him in on defense alone (and he also has good slugging on top of that-of course this is offset by terrible OBP so he is not an overall good hitter).

    however the problem is that those guys you mentioned did not fall apart age 30 but remained great defender deep into their 30s.
    I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and cant run, most of the time hes clogging up the bases for somebody who can run. Dusty Baker.

  2. #277
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    A CF who will end up averaging .250..........nah!
    You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the $%#%! plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

  3. #278
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    http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yanke...7Ko5e2kDFGMoiN

    1-12 Pounds lighter and wants to lose 10 more this spring.
    2-His knee has been repaired and rehabbed.
    Chop! Chop! Chop!

  4. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yanke...7Ko5e2kDFGMoiN

    1-12 Pounds lighter and wants to lose 10 more this spring.
    2-His knee has been repaired and rehabbed.
    It's hard not to like someone with that kind of determination, but I can't see Jones stealing much time in the field away from Brett Gardner or Nick Swisher. I believe Gardner had the highest dWAR in baseball last season and should have won a Gold Glove, while Swisher's 1.1 dWAR wasn't too shabby either. Unless an outfielder is injured or Swisher hits a bad slump, Jones's role will be as a designated hitter against left-handed pitching.

  5. #280
    No thanks. He did have a good pace through 2006, but after that, fell like a pump and dump. Even if he somehow does get 500 homers by chance, I still do not view him as HOF worthy.

  6. #281
    There are, 205 players already inducted into the Hall of Fame, correct? There have been almost 18,000 guys who got at least a cup of coffee as a member of Major League Baseball.

    Q: How many players were better/more valuable....career wise...than Andruw Jones?

    A: Hundreds of players.

  7. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by csh19792001 View Post
    There are, 205 players already inducted into the Hall of Fame, correct? There have been almost 18,000 guys who got at least a cup of coffee as a member of Major League Baseball.

    Q: How many players were better/more valuable....career wise...than Andruw Jones?

    A: Hundreds of players.
    Really?

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...t_career.shtml

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...st=0&players=0
    Chop! Chop! Chop!

  8. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Biofury View Post
    No thanks. He did have a good pace through 2006, but after that, fell like a pump and dump. Even if he somehow does get 500 homers by chance, I still do not view him as HOF worthy.
    I don't see how he could be kept out of Cooperstown if he reaches 500 home runs (which is very unlikely, considering he's 80 away and has been averaging about 15/season for several seasons, although he's only 34 years old). We'd be talking about a guy with 500 homers AND perhaps the greatest fielding outfielder of all-time. He won 10 straight Gold Gloves, and he's one of the rare players who deserved nearly all of them (9 out of the 10, in my opinion, and he was robbed of one in 1997). He might not be an inner-circle HOFer, but I would rank him considerably higher than someone like Andre Dawson, who was a slightly better overall hitter but probably only deserved 5 of his 8 Gold Gloves.

  9. #284
    Ok, I "hyperbolized". We'll say "at least 100" were more valuable, better than Jones. At a minimum.

    Maybe you're a guy who would vote for guys like Andre Dawson to get into the HOF. I'm not. I think it should be for only the absolute top echelon of the greatest that every lived. That isn't 300-400 actual players, to me. Ideallly, it'd be more like 100 players.

  10. #285
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    If the standard you're using is less than 175 or so guys belong in the Hall, you're having another discussion--about a ship that's already sailed, and ain't coming back. If you don't have blind faith in WAR, I can see holding out against Jones, but the reality is the discussion centers around the approximate number in the Hall, maybe minus clear mistakes. If you're well away from that number, you're fighting another fight. Fighting for 100 MLB types is the same as someone fighting for 300 already retired MLB types. It's just a dramatic departure from where we're at. In fact, it's worse, because the names aren't going off the rolls, but could go on them.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  11. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by csh19792001 View Post
    Ok, I "hyperbolized". We'll say "at least 100" were more valuable, better than Jones. At a minimum.

    Maybe you're a guy who would vote for guys like Andre Dawson to get into the HOF. I'm not. I think it should be for only the absolute top echelon of the greatest that every lived. That isn't 300-400 actual players, to me. Ideallly, it'd be more like 100 players.
    I too, would prefer a smaller hall, but not nearly that small. Dawson wouldn't quite make my cut, but Jones probably would. The fact is, it's harder to make the Hall of Fame today than it has ever been. I believe that as the average performance level increases, the number of players who will stand out as HOF-worthy decreases, and I do believe that the average major leaguer is better today than the average major leaguer 50 years ago or 100 years ago. I know some might disagree with that, but baseball talent from all races and various corners of the globe is now finding its way into the big leagues, making the sport more and more competitive.

    A Hall of Fame with 100 players would be boring and it would be loaded with players who are long dead. I was just doing a Sporcle quiz of Bill James' 100 Greatest Players, according to the 2001 Historical Baseball Abstract. By my count, at least 66 of the 100 players had pro careers that started before 1960, including the vast majority of the top 50. The top 14 players all had professional careers starting before 1950 and were born before 1935. How could this be? Have no top echelon baseball players been born in the past 77 years? Even if we updated the list for 2012, there might only be 1 player in the top 14 who is under the age of 77 and hasn't been linked to PED use (the PED issue makes most of the past 15 years a wash when taking about the top tier players like Bonds and Clemens). Even first-ballot HOFers like Nolan Ryan and Paul Molitor probably wouldn't make a hypothetical 100-member HOF.

  12. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by davewashere View Post
    Even first-ballot HOFers like Nolan Ryan and Paul Molitor probably wouldn't make a hypothetical 100-member HOF.
    I certainly hope not. Sorry, couldn't resist. Okay, to be fair, based on merit, it's possible that both Ryan and Molitor would be somewhere near the 100 player mark. But, that's not the intent of this thread, is it?

    Jones is an odd case. When he was a great defender he was just a decent hitter with moderate power. Then, when his power came on big time (is this suspicious?) his defense began to slide a bit. On top of that, he was a so-so average hitter who rarely walked, so his batting value came largely from his power. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but it makes for a very lopsided type of career. Add in becoming a utility-type player at an early age, and the PR-quotient goes down some. I see Jones as a definite top 20 CFer. Top 20 probably doesn't make it, unless you're really popular. Is he top 15? Maybe.

  13. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by davewashere View Post
    I too, would prefer a smaller hall, but not nearly that small. Dawson wouldn't quite make my cut, but Jones probably would. .
    Great post, and beautifully composed. I hear you, loud and clear.

    I have seen metrics that rank Andruw Jones as the either the greatest or one of the top 3-5 center fielders in baseball history (based on fielding only, not hitting).

    Can anyone expound on this?

  14. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by csh19792001 View Post
    Great post, and beautifully composed. I hear you, loud and clear.

    I have seen metrics that rank Andruw Jones as the either the greatest or one of the top 3-5 center fielders in baseball history (based on fielding only, not hitting).

    Can anyone expound on this?
    When Jones was in his prime I remember Joe Morgan talking about Jones defense compared to Willie May's defense. Joe was asked if Mays was better than Jones on defense. Morgan is a HUGE Willie Mays fan and considers Mays the greatest player ever so his response to the question was interesting to say the least. Morgan said something to the effect, "Well, Jones doesn't get after it on every single play like Willie did." or something to that effect. His response seemed to imply that Morgan considered Jones' defense on par with Willie's defense but didn't want to admit that and he didn't want to say that Jones defense was inferior to Willie's because 1) He didn't believe that and 2) he would consider it dishonest to say something he didn't really believe.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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  15. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    When Jones was in his prime I remember Joe Morgan talking about Jones defense compared to Willie May's defense. Joe was asked if Mays was better than Jones on defense. Morgan is a HUGE Willie Mays fan and considers Mays the greatest player ever so his response to the question was interesting to say the least. Morgan said something to the effect, "Well, Jones doesn't get after it on every single play like Willie did." or something to that effect. His response seemed to imply that Morgan considered Jones' defense on par with Willie's defense but didn't want to admit that and he didn't want to say that Jones defense was inferior to Willie's because 1) He didn't believe that and 2) he would consider it dishonest to say something he didn't really believe.
    I can't look it up at the moment, but doesn't Jones have one of the top few highest fielding ratings among all center fielders? And the best single season ever, also?

  16. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    If the standard you're using is less than 175 or so guys belong in the Hall, you're having another discussion--about a ship that's already sailed, and ain't coming back.
    Yep. Let's call it "what should be".

    Also known as "idealism".

  17. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by csh19792001 View Post
    I can't look it up at the moment, but doesn't Jones have one of the top few highest fielding ratings among all center fielders? And the best single season ever, also?
    Not sure what this means, since I still don't really understand how Fielding WAR works, but Jones is #2 all-time in Fielding WAR after Brooks Robinson. Willie Mays is #8 all-time. Barry Bonds is #6, though. Ok??? That can't be right.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...f_career.shtml
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

    http://sfgiants-forum.com/forum/index.php

  18. #293
    Neyer wrote a nice piece about AJ a week or so ago.
    3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

    "It is not easy to be near your best every single day. Some would even say its impossible. Were all just human beings. But its not impossible. Henry Aaron did it." - Joe Posnanski

  19. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRon View Post
    Jones is an odd case. When he was a great defender he was just a decent hitter with moderate power. Then, when his power came on big time (is this suspicious?)...
    Yes it is rather suspicious, but these are the times we live in. The "steroid era", which apparently is ongoing, has permenantly tainted the way we look at and evaluate players. It's taken a lot of the enjoyment out of the game for me.
    When you can't take anything at face value anymore, irreparable harm has been done. I don't know if Jones is a Hall-of Famer or not, because I don't know if he's clean. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I can't pretend that doubt isn't there.
    "Tactics were resorted to, unworthy of fair, manly players" - Brooklyn Eagle, June 12,1890

  20. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Not sure what this means, since I still don't really understand how Fielding WAR works, but Jones is #2 all-time in Fielding WAR after Brooks Robinson. Willie Mays is #8 all-time. Barry Bonds is #6, though. Ok??? That can't be right.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...f_career.shtml
    --Well its "right" in one sense says it is only comparing how they stack up against others at their position, so Bonds was much better than a field of guys chosen primarily for their offense. It doesn't really say anything about how they stack up aginst all fielders (at least if I understand it correctly). An average SS is a much better defender than an average LF so its harder to stand out from the pack. Even taking that into account there is considerably more doubt about the accuracy of defensive stats than offensive ones. Whatever you think about the numbers though, I think most of us would agree that Jones was at least amoung the very best defensive outfielders ever.

  21. #296
    Before 2007, I would have said yes.

    Perhaps the best defensive CF all-time, and he could hit too.

    I don't know what happened to him that he fell off so bad. His career path is a mirror image of Darryl Strawberry's.

    His best hope (or only hope) is to somehow get 500 HR. He's at 427 right now (Tied w/ my fav. player Mike Piazza), and he's 35 years old.

    Can he manage 73 more homeruns? He hasn't hit 20 since 2007 though..

    It's like turning 30 years old killed the poor guy.

  22. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by redban View Post
    Before 2007, I would have said yes.

    Perhaps the best defensive CF all-time, and he could hit too.

    I don't know what happened to him that he fell off so bad. His career path is a mirror image of Darryl Strawberry's.

    His best hope (or only hope) is to somehow get 500 HR. He's at 427 right now (Tied w/ my fav. player Mike Piazza), and he's 35 years old.

    Can he manage 73 more homeruns? He hasn't hit 20 since 2007 though..

    It's like turning 30 years old killed the poor guy.
    Its tough for Braves fans, as our other great center fielder Dale Murphy dropped off at age 31. Nevertheless, I would put Jones in and probably Murphy as well, though he is iffy.
    Chop! Chop! Chop!

  23. #298
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    Jones will not go into the HOF unless he (A) reaches 500 HRs and (B) returns to full-time CF play. Neither is likely, but if he does BOTH, he will be a viable candidate. If he does not do both, he will not go in, even if he hits 500 HRs.
    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

    NL President Ford Frick, 1947

  24. #299
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    Unless someone has a serious illness or disease, there's never an excuse to decline at under 35. 34 tops.
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  25. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    Unless someone has a serious illness or disease, there's never an excuse to decline at under 35. 34 tops.
    Except if you're a catcher though. All catchers typically decline between ages 30-33...

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