Happy Birthday Steve.
Kumbaya.
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Happy Birthday Steve.
Kumbaya.
Ex "Expert"
53? Heck, I knew you were old but...Originally Posted by Steve Englishbey
Now I know how to get you p.o.-ed. Call you a kid.
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If my approach is hands back ,front foot to the pitcher.The heel toe process begins which transfers the weight from front to back,and begins the rotation of my back foot,and the inward turn of my back knee.As my back knee begins to turn so do my hips.My hands begin to start their path at this point.The path that they take should be what then???? short,what does short exactly mean then?? I though it was a knob to the ball then explode with the wrists at the point of contact.Hitting against a firm front leg.with of course good extension with the power "v" and a good follow through, either one handed or two handed.I thought the swing was a top hand punching motion and the bottom hand karate chop at an angle motion.What do i need to change in order to correct this type of swing??
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Its just my guess, but I bet that Mr. Stover has played more baseball than you will ever hope to play...how do you ruin a kids swing by starting out aggresively?...you can't. So you want H.S. coaches to past a test...here's guessing that Mr. Stover would pass any test with flying colors. You sound like another frustrated athlete who is blaming past coaches on not having a MLB career. What is this bitter "congratulate yourself" stuff and in your humble opinion certain things are "not debateable". Dude, get over yourself.
Coaching 101 Moderator
Who would develop the test? We have trained nearly 1000 youth coaches and it amazes me what each coach takes away from each class, especially the skills training. If the best in the business can't agree on what is to be taught who would be responsible for developing the test and moderating it's compliance???
Here we do certify the coaches and they are licensed, but the training does not go as deep as specific skill's training. I feel this is unfortunate as I do agree there are good and bad ways of teaching skills.
Last edited by Jake Patterson; 08-29-2007 at 06:32 PM.
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Depends on what you mean by knob to the ball. It means to change it from pointing at the ground, to pointing in the direction from which the ball is coming. It does NOT mean to move the knob toward the ball. The knob stays near your back shoulder for a LONG time. Then the knob goes around your body and up toward your front shoulder. NOT, down toward your front hip.I thought it was a knob to the ball then explode with the wrists at the point of contact.Hitting against a firm front leg.with of course good extension with the power "v" and a good follow through, either one handed or two handed.I thought the swing was a top hand punching motion and the bottom hand karate chop at an angle motion.What do i need to change in order to correct this type of swing??
Extension is part of the follow through. The front elbow is bent on any pitch middle in, and only straightens AFTER the ball is hit. It kinda feels like a punch from the top hand, but it isn't from an extension into the ball, it's due to the back arm staying bent and close to the body.
Watch this video of Bonds 756. A baseball swing doesn't get any better than this. I paused it at contact, and slowed it down. There is no extension at contact. There is no knob to the ball.
And he doesn't line up his knocking knuckles, and neither did Mays, Aaron, Ruth, or Williams. The top 4 HR hitters of all-time, plus one of the best hitters period. Very few MLB hitters line up the knocking knuckles, but it doesn't mean you can't.
And he isn't hitting down through the ball. He catches it on the upswing.
http://wms17.streamhoster.com/firstp...56animated.wmv streaming
Last edited by jbooth; 08-29-2007 at 07:00 PM.
Coaching 101 Moderator
At 52 I must be just a "babe."
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- John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
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Jiggy,
Much of what you believe indicates dated techniques and theories. I would consider looking at more conventional and current ways of teaching hitting. Take a look at Siggy's site (Found in Clips, Pics and Sites) and see for yourself what is true.
"He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
- John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
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How do you ruin a kids swing by starting out "aggressively?"
what does that mean if you say that to a kid??? swing at every pitch thrown to them in short toss and bp? is that aggressive???
just attack the baseball huh? so a kid who has no idea how to load, how to get into hitting position..... no concept of balance and control of their body.... you want them to just swing aggressively?
let me rephrase it.... i would never teach a kid this way, it doesnt make any sense.
I would want to develop a sense of balance, sense of the strike zone, things like that before i told a kid to "swing aggressively."
Coaching in college- and I clearly stated not Mr. Stover or any high school coach on this board, I really didnt even know i responded to "Mr. Stovers" post.... but, kids that are talented enough to play in college are not taught a thing about having an approach and certainly not swing mechanics.
this leads me to believe there are many average kids- the kids not that talented like the ones that get the privelage of playing in college- that don't get the help they need to learn how to hit and end up quitting or just flat out not being good..... that was my point.
being "aggressive" can be a great thing- our team has finished in the top 10 in hitting the last 3 years in a row in the nation at our level- and on 0-0 counts in the last 3 years we are hitting .424.......... so i'll be the first to admit i love the concept of being "aggressive" but after you have learned how to hit... not to learn how to swing a bat.
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I dont know what the test would encounter or who would develop- quite honestly I was just ranting on an issue that has bothered me for awhile. I just think there are way too many kids that aren't given the opportunity to learn the game, and in this case hit, because of coaches who don't know what they are doing and give wrong information... examples being squishing the bug, swinging down on the ball to create backspin, or total disregard of taking an athletic kid and not showing them anything.
Hell, it happens in college too, kind of silly of me to just say kids in high school- if you have anyway of learning the hitting approach at Stanford University- do it. It's crazy how many D1 schools just don't do it right. It's even crazier when the players at the respective school no they aren't being taught right and tell there hitting coaches to just let them do there own thing. lol
But anyway- onto Mike Epstein- i'd rather see a high school coach or instructor at least try to learn his methods rather than just teach what they think or what has been passed down onto them.
Video doesnt lie.
Last edited by GetYourBestSwing; 08-29-2007 at 10:54 PM.
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And also, in my opinion- there are parts of the swing that aren't debatable. video and pictures just don't lie.
You can debate and throw ideas off of each other all day about what muscles do what, what parts of the body create more torque, if keeping flat hands puts backspin on the ball, how far the head should move.... bla bla bla.... but the way a big league hitter looks at contact point for example, you can't argue it. its all virtually the exact same thing. that really isn't a debatable issue-- just show someone video and pictures and your argument is won.
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It looks to me that Mr. Bonds almost has a straight right arm before contact(In pic 3). Now I don't know if the ball was out side but someone please tell me when is an "arm bar" is an "arm bar"?
Ex "Expert"
Something tells me you haven't met a certain poster who uses the same video and of whom argues two drastically different philosophies in hitting with exactly the same video and same hitters. Oh what a difference a year makes!
Registered User
Get- I suggest that you read the thread in its entirety before you respond. Clearly, you were responding to Mr. Stover's post. You have missed the point re: "swinging aggressively". What you want is for young kids, just learning the game, to swing aggresively with intent. You don't want them waiting for the perfect pitch or worrying about missing the ball...you want them to swing hard. Swinging hard is the best way for their body to feel rotation and to find a natural balance point. The best way to teach is to have them find it themselves before well intentioned coaches start putting them in uncomfortable, technical positions. Once, you see that they are swinging aggresively you start to teach them some basic mechanics. The worst thing you see in little league is some coach pleading with a 9 yr old to draw a walk in order to win the game.
Re: video. If you pay attention to the site, you will soon find out that people see different things from the same vid. Also, did you say that you like Epstein but don't like squishing the bug? You need to do your homework...
Coaching 101 Moderator
We have discussed this before and we have found that the players ability to see the ball to contact varies, with none "seeing" contact. The better the player's ability to tract the further into the zone he can see. Some say Williams could see contact, who knows....
Here's Pujol's from a previous discussion:
AlbertPujols eyes.JPG
"He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
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Booth you are obviously a very astute hitting instructor,but the hand path to the ball that Hudgens teaches is that the knob of the bat is also facing the ball just not at the same tilt where the bat head is flatlined or comes under the incoming pitch.In one of your previous posts you say that Tony Gwynn was more of a linear type hitter,but Gwynn was one the greatest of all time.He did not generate as much power,but the key is to be a good consistent line drive hiitter not just a power hitter,no?
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The key is for your guys to step on the funny looking plate more often than their guys. To do that means doing the best you can with the gifts you have. For Ichiro that means one thing. For Pujols, it means another. Somebody runs down fly balls and reaches first. Somebody else plays first and collects rbi's in bunches with doubles and dingers. All the pieces of the puzzle don't look alike. Depends on your gifts and goals.
Last edited by Mark H; 08-30-2007 at 09:14 AM. Reason: typo
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Jiggy see your PM's
"He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
- John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.
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Yes, and I and a couple of others have told you that THAT is a huge problem. It makes you mis-hit the ball, or miss the ball.
I don't recall posting about Gwynn, other than that about 70% of his total hits were singles. Gwynn didn't swing the way Hudgens teaches as far as hand path. The longer you let your hands go down, during the swing, the chance of missing the ball increases. The more you send them on a straight line, the faster you suck out all the power.In one of your previous posts you say that Tony Gwynn was more of a linear type hitter,but Gwynn was one the greatest of all time. He did not generate as much power, but the key is to be a good consistent line drive hiitter not just a power hitter,no?
Why not have consistency AND power? If you swing like Bonds, Pujols and others, you get both. If you swing like Gwynn you get mostly singles, and if you swing like Hudgens says, you get neither.
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JboothJim - you are on a roll. This might be the best post ever.Why not have consistency AND power? If you swing like Bonds, Pujols and others, you get both. If you swing like Gwynn you get mostly singles, and if you swing like Hudgens says, you get neither.
"Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
"Hit the inside seam" - In Memory of Swingbuster
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everything that JBooth writes is the post of the year...lol my goodness. Gentlemen I appreciate the time and effort you put into all of this rotational and linear analysis. It's very helpful, but to say that Dave Hudgens has no idea of what he teaches is not being a reflective teacher. Here its only one way or the highway, and im sure there are more than a few individuals on here who have never even played the game before but all of a sudden are hitting gurus..lol. All of these hitting instructors bring something good to the table and its our job to make the best recipe. All I know is that Hudgens way of teaching has done me and my students quite well. When they finish and start their swings. Two kids were All Americans and one was an MVP of the region with this approach, im just seeing if there is anything available to implement in the hand path. I may bring a lower tilt of the bat and keep the handle closer to the shoulder until the hips start to turn and have more of a circular hand path to some students who ask about it,but ive sen some kids being taught that method,and maybe its the perosn who is teaching but it surely doesnt look like what you see on t.v. I see the swing you speak of in quite a few ball players,more so the power guys, but a lot of line drive hitters dont have such an exxagerated tilt of that bat through the zone which obvioulsy will give you more lift when hitting the ball. Sometimes they hit with the tilt sometimes they hit with more of a linear swing so when they finish its back to center , not back to front. Any way a lot of great info on this site.
Last edited by Jake Patterson; 08-30-2007 at 12:03 PM.
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As long as you will look at things with an open mind, you will eventually see what is wrong with Hudgens materials. You are right in that every instructor (almost) has something good that we can learn from.everything that JBooth writes is the post of the year...lol my goodness.Gentlemen I appreciate the time and effort you put into all of this rotational and linear analysis.Its very helpful,but to say that Dave Hudgens has no idea of what he teaches is not being a reflective teacher.Here its only one way or the highway,and im sure there are more than a few individuals on here who have never even played the game before but all of a sudden are hitting gurus..lol.All of these hitting instructors bring something good to the table and its our job to make the best recipe.All I know is that Hudgens way of teaching has done me and my students quite well.When they finish and start their swings.Two kids were All Americans and one was an MVP of the region with this approach,im just seeing if there is anything available to implement in the hand path.I may bring a lower tilt of the bat and keep the handle closer to the shoulder until the hips start to turn and have more of a circular hand path to some students who ask about it,but ive sen some kids being taught that method,and maybe its the perosn who is teaching but it surely doesnt look like what you see on t.v. I see the swing you speak of in quite a few ball players,more so the power guys,but a lot of line drive hitters dont have such an exxagerated tilt of that bat through the zone which obvioulsy will give you more lift when hitting the ball.Sometimes they hit with the tilt sometimes they hit with more of a linear swing so when they finish its back to center ,not back to front.Any way a lot of great info on this site.
If all else fails make sure you have Ted Williams Book Science of Hitting!
"Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
"Hit the inside seam" - In Memory of Swingbuster
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Neither does what Hudgens describes.
Nothing wrong with having less tilt back toward the catcher. Pujols is different from Edmonds in this respect but it's still a swing where the hands and bat are connected to the rotation of the body.
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Or some of the worst things I see in little league is a dad taking a bucket of 40 balls, throwing from the mound, and just letting there kid hack away. I don't agree with that. All that can be a difference of opinion of course- i'm fine with that.
I've seen the Epstein vids and know a D1 softball coach who follows it religiously- I like some of it I guess is what I meant- I don't teach every aspect of Epstein no. So if squishing the bug is something he does- no, I don't agree with him.
I guess I can think, study, and teach on my own and don't need to follow 1 person like its a cult- they all have something interesting to add and I think it's silly to not study everything you can and try to learn something...can never stop learning and viewing things from others perspective.
I've done plenty homework, trust me- it's what I do for a living, its pretty sweet actually. lol
Registered User
Sweet picture- i'm going to use that.
I certainly wasn't referring to or talking at all about where there looking or how far they track the ball in when i said hitters "Look" the same at contact, you read my post wrong..... I was referring to other aspects such as toe up, stiff front leg, hips and shoulders facing the pitcher, palm-up-palm-down, head location, etc. etc..... sorry for the confusion.
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